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Reddan
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Reddan

Well-Known Member

Reddan was last seen:
Viewing thread Tobirama vs Hokage Minato., Oct 13, 2019 at 6:30 PM
    1. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      Kumo is probably Konaho?s greatest competitor , possesses the 2nd strongest Bijuu etc. My theory is that Tobirama killed Nidaime Raikage during the treaty ceremony, then made things look as if he was attacked too by the people Kumo formerly considered heroes (and also its strongest shinobi). No one doubted him because he was ?on the verge of death? and people thought no one would dare pull such a trick on foreign land. Then he ran back to Konoha, declaring that Kumo tried to kill him and used the moment they were weakened and confused to attack. Later Kinkaku force tracked him down for the sake of revenge, not normal missions.

      LOL to the people who are thinking that this guy is not relevant considering "feats", too. I think Kishi gave up on many things he had planned like you said, but I think here he won't just leave our Second Hokage just like that. Seriously, someone who is tied to that many disasters and has been built up for so long
    2. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      Yes, that is probably too far-fetched:p, anyway I would love to have just anyone throw it all at his face ? his brother clearly failed. Seriously, he?s linked to almost all great disasters in this manga. According to Nagato, Konoha directly caused Shinobi World War II (and that war created Pein and who know how many other villains) ? clearly started during Nidaime?s time. It really sounded like Tobirama?s style:amazed : most of the conflicts seemed to happen in minor countries, and they suffered while Konoha flourished. Some shadowy businesses probably happened when he signed that treaty with Kumo too - signing a treaty while preparing for a war, classic Tobirama. Kishi gave us a lot of puzzle pieces : Kin-Gin brothers attacked, Tobirama (an S/T user, a sensor, being ambushed!) allegedly barely escaped with his life (if it was a coup d etat, why did they choose that particular moment when they would have to fight against two kages? Why attack a foreign leader at all? ), and then, probably a long time after that, their unit tracked him down and killed him...
      He clearly had nothing to do with raising Minato. I doubt either of them knows, even right now. Minato called him "Nidaime-sama" even in thoughts - Even Tobirama called his brother "Brother" (ani-ja, honorific, unlike the Uchiha's use of "nii-san", but still family rather than social rank)
    3. Senjuclan
      Senjuclan
      Dude,

      Our agreement was for a month. It's been well past a month. You should change your handle back. I gotta say I respect you for keeping your word
    4. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      Very good development in the last chapter, I think. Sasuke is probably going to try to kill Kurama, sacrificing Naruto in the process. If Tobirama is Naruto's ancestor, we'll likely find out how he will react to the fact that his descendant was first labeled dangerous and ostracized as a child because of the power and potential for instability he carried as a Jinchuuriki, and now is going to be killed by his 'friend' for the same reason.
      Yes, for someone who tries to be emotionless, he gets angry real quick. The DB highlights his passionate, fiery character too. If he was a psychiatrist, out of the 4 (Hashirama, Tobirama, Madara, Izuna) described in the DB, he probably would've chosen himself to treat first.
      I will applaud Kishi:laugh if Tobirama's woman told him that he was a man who had no respect whatsoever for moral standards, truces, the dead and the living alike, and no faith in the values of the new world (like believing the young ones) either, and she was going to abort because such a man had no business becoming a father of anyone, and he committed suicide.
    5. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      :)
      I think Tobirama did actually go behind Hashirama's back, probably as much as he could. We don't have too many details. But look at the brothers' conversation that Madara eavesdropped. He obviously knew Madara was there (because if he didn't, he would be the first one to make a big deal out of it). Obviously he was trying to manipulate the circumstance to alienate Madara on his own, knowing Hashirama wouldn't agree with him.

      I think Hashirama was the kind who, even if he decided that another was more suitable to handle some kinds of businesses, would try to supervise, and did the dirty jobs himself when necessary. He had a more imposing nature than Hiruzen.

      Talking about Tobirama, I think his problems were worse than trusting the heroes of the past and being pragmatic. The "pragmatic" folks' problem is usually being short-sighted. Tobirama was worse than that. He was greedy and a control freak.
      Edo Tensei breaks several laws of nature, and prefering the old gens over the new one is just an aspect of it:1.The summoner has the absolute control over the summoned (usually, with Summoning Jutsus, the summoned can refuse to obey, and reverse summon)2.Using others' blood for the required sacrifices, and thus making someone else pay for you (normally you will have to use your own blood) - this also shows disrespect to the laws of death and life. You cannot just play God in this story. With the Shikigami jutsu, you have to pay with your own life and soul. Even with Rikudous, they have to sacrifice their life/lifeforce in order to revive people. But Tobirama wanted all the benefits without having to pay for anything.
      Same with Uchihas. Another pragmatical man, with a healthier mind, even with a lot of doubt, would've considered that maybe 100% Uchihas voting for Hashirama, despite Hashirama (and Tobirama himself) probably had killed a lot of their brothers with their own hands, was a clear sign that they deserved a chance. But he wanted total control of the situation for his side (the Senju). Look at the last sentence here. He wanted to use the Uchiha's power for his village without ever allowing to become a part of it (Hashirama or Madara, if they ever found out that a clan couldn't be trusted, they would allow that clan to leave, even with all the possible consequences) . Also if the Uchiha was a part of the village leadership, other clans, even without a Kekkai Genkai/Rikudou's blood as a natural advantage, would have more voice too, because if they didn't agree with the Senju leader, Hokage or not, they would always have the chance to get the Uchiha leader on their side.



      War made everyone a wild wolf, but Madara preferred that world of wolves to the kind of peace in which there were dogs and dog owners. At the first glance, one might think Madara's skepticism and pessimism were the problem. But the bigger, actual problems lay with those who chose to kept doubts in their hearts (Madara always stated his doubts outloud) and then lied, and finally, stabbed their new friends in the backs.

      I do think that Tobirama did actually have doubts though. Prejudices can be used as a kind of defense mechanic. Tobirama, like his fathers and a lot of others who had lived in that world of constant wars, chose to let the wolf in him take over to protect the fragile human side, because that was the only way they could continue to live like they did and kill everyday. And even in the time of peace, he refused to let the wolf go. Deep inside he was a baby who feared falling down, which was basically the only way one could learn to walk. His father told himself that the Senju were a clan of love (and the Uchiha were not). Tobirama told himself that the Uchiha could love but that made them dangerous emos who should be eradicated. Look at the way he talks to Hashirama. "But you know it better than anyone, they are..", "You know too well that..." He didn't and still doesn't even understand that Hashirama actually disapproves of his thinking, and that Hashirama thinks that they (Senju and Uchiha) are basically similar.
      Essentially Tobirama used people, milked them and then discarded them saying: "Thank you, you did us a great service by destroying yourself!" The Chinese has a story about a king, knowing that his brother had bad tendencies, gave him lands and powers and waited until he actually rebelled, so that he would be able to crush him and tell everyone that he was right. The king was reproached by scholars for not trying to save his brother first. Same with Tobirama. Hashirama, Hiruzen and others killed people too, but first they did treat everyone like their own brother like a Hokage should've done and tried to treat the illness before killing the sinners.
      Doubts or realism alone could never do those things Tobirama did. It must've been a horribly toxic mix of doubt, a severe lack of compassion and a lot of greed and arrogance.

      So I fully expect a long story that will explain what caused his final actions. Something must've happened. Most likely personal. Probably related to him being Minato's ancestor or something like that.
    6. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      I do think that Hashirama being stronger than his brother does play a role there. Like in real life, physical traits are part of a leader?s natural resources, and you build your personal leading style and your successes on whatever Nature gives you. Part of the reason feigning weaknesses works for him is that he knows he?s strong (and thus, together with other reasons, capable of making people take him seriously whenever it counts). However, maybe that ?advantage? caused some problems too. Maybe if Hashirama didn?t have this advantage to rely on when dealing with his brother, he would?ve been forced to seek other solutions harder and things would?ve been better in the long run? We never know.
      Imo with Madara, at the very least, Hashirama had a better approach, ie he knew that Izuna left a void in Madara?s heart and that he had an inferiority complex, so he tried to fill this void with the village citizens (hoping that one day Madara would see them all as his own brothers) and give Madara a new sense of purpose, and boost his self-confidence with little things like suggesting having his face carved on the mountain? Things would?ve most likely worked out if he was totally in control of the environment and could focus on Madara?s problems alone (but unfortunately he had to account for other problems too, like Tobirama pointed out, he couldn't just give Madara the Hokage position. And it was too risky to force a hated leader on a newly formed organization and use a whole village as the tool to treat Madara?s mental condition ). But at least he tried something that had a chance to work. Same with Sasuke. Trying to be an understanding person, praising the brother whom the boy clearly admired while accepting all personal responsibilities for the massacre , respecting his clan, giving him subtle clues while not forcing a choice on him ? That?s at least a good approach, strong character or not.
      When it?s Tobirama, Hashirama simply says ?It?s wrong?, ?I don?t like your tone?, or worse, threatens him, or makes mocking remarks (such as ?Madara probably cared about his brother more than I've ever cared about you.? - he meant Tobirama's brother, some translators mistakenly thought it was Itachi) Tobirama's psychological problems run deep. I think he just hides it better than Madara (One chose to voice his doubts outloud, the other chose to be silent and deceptive, one has reached the conclusion that free will is bad, the other fears emotions!) . Shodai should've paid more attention and been more creative.

      I guess maybe like in the case of some real life leaders, it was a selfish desire to reserve for yourself a little space where you can act naturally like the average Joe who quarrels with his little brother and spoils his grandchild rotten (someone should really tell him gambling and alcoholism became serious problems for Tsunade who relied on them to deal with her losses). Madara was a personal friend but he was different because Madara was always going to playing a big role in his plans (up until the point Madara left the village, he still tried to set Madara up as his successor), so he focused on him. After that, it was probably too late to fix things with Tobirama and it was clear he would become Nidaime anyway, so he tried to find a more open-minded, compassionate person for the next generation (if these panels suggest anything, Hiruzen was probably intended for Sandaime very soon) , who hopefully would melt Tobirama a bit and unite the clans when his turn came.
      Anyway, imho ultimately Hashirama's persuasive power lies with the fact that he has a healthy view in life general and capable of incorporating other views into his own, and thus everyone feels that they has his chance with him and something to gain from following his cause. He combined Tobirama's idea of truce with Madara's idea of honesty and friendship into the idea of "a true alliance", or his own ideas of the village/peace with Madara's idea of a place to protect little brothers. His Will of Fire is not about protecting a system, it's about doing the best thing for the next generation. If Madara or anyone else poses an immediate threat to the citizens and children and can't be persuaded then they should be put down. But if the system costs too much blood to maintain then it's time to start something new. Tobirama might be reluctant and obsessed with control, laws and systems, but ultimately he did give up on Edo Tensei (borrowing strength from the past) and place his hope in the younger generation.

      I was curious about Minato-Obito conflict too. And indeed, it?s also a chance for Kishimoto to develop Minato?s character further. Up until this point we?ve got some clues. We know he?s cool, nice, and courageous, and a smart fighter, but not much more than that. And one of the most important questions in this story is ?If protecting your village/ideals means killing your student/friend/teacher, what will you do??
    7. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      I think it's a matter of opinions, and different types of leader:). To me, a "natural" leader, at the core, is someone who naturally desires an active role in the world (all three have this), clings to his purpose and has this boundless energy that can absorb other people into his realm of influence and his ways of doing things (whatever method he might use, persuasion or charisma or manipulation, and it doesn't matter if it takes time to work or not) and possesses a decent quantity of the first or the second kind of wisdom Machiavelli mentions, preferably the second.
      All in all despite the (honest) modesty, he seems to be some kind of subconscious dominant personality and even as a boy, has this natural tendency to show (and fake if necessary) weaknesses so that people feel more comfortable and show their true selves to him.
      He seems to be fail hard when it comes to all people close to him though! People like the hard edge he shows when he threatens Tobirama with violence, but deep inside, it's like he feels really helpless about his brother (considering he was so much confident thinking about converting a stranger, and here he didn't have to resort to telling Sasuke "No, you are wrong" or threatening like in Tobirama's case).


      ----------

      Also I absolutely think that Tobirama is either Minato?s father or grandfather (father, most likely, even in the case that would screw up the timeline, because it enhances the drama)
      Other than all the things that have been pointed out (similar appearances, techs, sensing abilities), I notice Namikaze=Nami+Kaze=Wave/Water+Wind. Tobirama is Water, Naruto is Wind. Water kills Fire (Uchiha/Sasuke) while Wind strengthens Fire (Minato's elements are probably both Wind and Water). The desire that the young generation make up for the sins/mistakes (a form of ?surpassing?) of their predecessors is one of the themes of this manga (and a popular thing among authors as well).
      Also Minato, a very polite person, when asked by Hashirama, replied ?I?m the 4th Hokage?. It was somewhat disrespectful if you think about it ? He was introducing himself to the founder (a higher up in many ways, a ?-SAMA?!), using his title/position without mentioning his name>>> Kishimoto must have a good reason to hide the name, right? Maybe Tobirama would?ve realized that it was his partner?s family name, Namikaze?
    8. alcoholmixture
      alcoholmixture
      Hello, such a long time since the last time I logged in.
      I randomly found this post of yours that says Hashirama is not a natural leader, and I've become curious because I have the opposite opinion. Can you elaborate?:)
      I like Madara much more after these flashbacks (of which the atmosphere is so much more serious, like it belongs the adults' world). Although I have to say, despite having great potential when it came to being a leader, he wasted it terribly. Tobirama was like the ideal righthand man imho, and should've never been anything else higher than that.
      This trio really makes me interested in Naruto again. Especially because they remind me a lot of the personalities and events that shaped the most glorious dynasty of my country. Except that thankfully things turned out really wonderfully in that case, imho largely because Tobirama's equivalent in that story was much much more helpful. Maybe something similar happened in Japanese history and gave Kishi the inspiration?:).
    9. Ernie
      Ernie
      http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m48w9pDmVm1rul4x7o1_500.gif

      nice comment in my thread! 5 star is bro because the hate needs to be stopped :datass
    10. Munboy Dracule O'Brian
      Munboy Dracule O'Brian
      You did bring up a good point about the reason the CS was given to Sasuke as well as mentioning he was compatible with Juugo since he got the MS.:hmm
    11. Munboy Dracule O'Brian
      Munboy Dracule O'Brian
      I have to admit, your theory about Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke all having a form of Sage Mode is pretty interesting. Did you get the idea from them training with each Sannin i.e. was their time with the Sannin foreshadowing in your opinion?
    12. PikaCheeka
      PikaCheeka
      Agreed on that. I just dropped it because I felt it was getting way too OT overall. I will reply to part of it later, though. I know I come off as really harsh sometimes so sorry about that. I am too emotionally invested. :lmao
    13. BiNexus
      BiNexus
      Great points in that thread. You had a lot of things from the second part that I missed/couldn't remember. I really wish this doesn't repeat itself next week, but it seems like a running trend that I'm still trying to get my head around.

      Anyway, great job.
    14. PikaCheeka
      PikaCheeka
      I disagree with 95% of what you say but I appreciate your comments in my thread and the manner in which you presented them. I was getting kind of frustrated with the way a couple of members were trying to make it personal, so thanks for being civilized. I am out of rep for now because of tajimaedit but will get you later.
    15. Last Rose of Summer
    16. Munboy Dracule O'Brian
    17. Senjuclan
      Senjuclan
      I don't know. I tried looking in the edit options but could not figure it out. Ask one of the mods
    18. Senjuclan
      Senjuclan
      Yo man,

      Time to change your handle to Senjuclanownedme!!!

      Madara was shown with susano'o at VoTE. I was right and you were wrong. Should I copy paste our conversations for you to remember? I hope you did not delete your private messages. I still have mine. You said you would be a man about it. Go ahead now
    19. Sniffers
      Sniffers
      Thanks for finding that translation. Could you link it though? I would rep, but apparently I have repped too often. (I need to rep more.)

      And sheesh. That's about the most crazy hype any character has gotten.
    20. Khazzar
      Khazzar
      Thank you!
    21. Cord
      Cord
      Thank you for the rep good sir!
    22. AlphaReaver
      AlphaReaver
      I fully agree. It pains me to see how many fellow Tobito fans believe the Long Haired Masked Man to be the same person as the Short Haired Masked Man & to completely rule out all possibilities. It's as if the victory we claimed with Tobito has corrupted some of us, to the point where they've become arrogant & closeminded. I almost feel as if The 2 Masked Men Theory is the new Tobito & it's sad to see my former comrades be so absolute & cocky.
    23. AlphaReaver
      AlphaReaver
      I had a feeling you felt the same. What led you to that conclusion? I honestly think that with the Hair alone, plus the way that Madara & Obito have been presented side by side & plus how Madara & Nagato have been presented, it can only be Madara. He's the only one who actually feels like he can be an actual overlord. Obito always felt like one of nagato's peers to me. I never really felt like Obito was fully above Nagato's rank. Now that we see the man with the plan & if we attribute Obito's "Uchiha Madara" claims to the real one, it makes perfect sense. Especially considering Madara's Rinnegan & Age & Experience.
    24. AlphaReaver
      AlphaReaver
      Hey! Thanks for the Rep! I would love to know what your opinion is on this whole Long Haired Masked Man & Short Hair Masked Man business.
    25. Kung Pow
      Kung Pow
      Hey I would be glad if you could check out my new theory and add your opinion:)
      http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=822860
    26. Talis
      Talis
      tnx for the reps. :)
    27. Kung Pow
      Kung Pow
      Hey got a new thread up, would like to hear what you think about it:)
      http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=816466
    28. Bender
      Bender
      You are awesome my man :kthumb
    29. Uzamaki Nagato
      Uzamaki Nagato
      Why do you think Madara didn't have Susano'o during his fight with Hashirama? Onoki seemed to clearly recognize Susano'o the moment it was used, even calling it by name. He also helped to form a strategy against it.

      Other than that, though, I agree with you. Turrin just seems to be overrating Sandaime Raikage a great deal, TBH. The guy's body was clearly cracked up after a direct hit from Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, he was lucky to be Edo lol.

      I also like your idea of Sasuke and Itachi being part-Senju. I think that maybe Mikoto was a Senju, keep in mind that she named Sasuke after a Sarutobi and the Sarutobi clan seem to be related to the Senju clan, according to Tobi.
    30. Kung Pow
      Kung Pow
      thanks for the rep man I really appreciate it!:amuse
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