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[1-###]Kubo is failing in the exact same ways that Kishi is.....

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Wobbly, Oct 21, 2006.

Is Bleach failing?

  1. Yay.

    11.0%
  2. Nay.

    51.2%
  3. I'm holding out hope, but things look grimm.......>>

    27.6%
  4. TAICHOU doesn't like Bleach anymore!?! D:

    10.2%
  1. Wobbly Active Member

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    Yes, I am the thread starter, and you read the title of the thread right.:oh

    Keep in mind that these are only my opinions, and as such, cannot be incorrect :amuse

    Both manga/anime started out in relatively the same ways. They started out slow with background info and some minor battles to keep everyone interested. Then, things started to pick up.

    For Bleach, it was the Soul Society arc, and the Chunnin Exam arc for Naruto. Those two sections of both respected manga helped establish their popularity by having fairly good plots and enough mystery surrounding them that it keep readers/watchers glued to their screen, but things slowly went downhill from there.....

    Both manga then had small battle arcs(Rescue Sasuke Arc/Everybody Fight Arrancar Arc) that weren't complete fail in themselves, but had little plot beyond just an excuse to get the characters to fight. Both arcs had elements that made little sense as well, like Tsunade sending Genin to do a Chuunin/Jounin's job, and Aizen sending Arracar to Earth more times than was necessary, just because. This is the start of the fail, and the only thing keeping both manga afloat were the high quality fights.

    Then, Naruto had another arc that wasn't so much fail, the Rescue Gaara arc. It didn't spend as much time building up Itachi, and let Kisame get his time to shine as well. It also was the only arc that featured any real character development, showing Gaara's despair and loneliness, then eventual acceptance by his fellow Suna nin. This arc made Gaara my second favorite character, after Jiraiya. Sadly, Bleach doesn't have an arc that held off the fail like Naruto did.:(

    Then, things fell apart for both Naruto and Bleach. The entire Orochimaru's lair arc failed miserably. Far too many chapters were filled of dialogue bubbles with mere ".....", which is not how you tell a good story. Then the "Asuma Goes Out Like A Punk Bitch" arc sealed Naruto's fate as a manga of fail.

    Kubo failed as soon as the Everybody Fight Arracar arc ended, when he introduced the Rescue Orihime arc, which is so similar to the Soul Society arc, that it has made me give up on Bleach almost totally. Ergo Proxy helped this change of heart as well.........

    Don't get it twisted, the only real similarities between the parallels of the Rescue Sasuke/Rescue Gaara arcs were basically in the names of the two. This is the exact opposite to the Soul Society/Rescue Orihime arcs, where the names are dissimilar, yet the overall plots(impossible odds, small number of protagonists, damsel in distress, random help popping out of nowhere) are almost exactly the same, only in a different setting. *shakes head*

    I will now no longer read another chapter of Bleach. Hopefully, word-of-mouth that I read/hear will bring news of Bleach starting to win once more, but things are looking grimm.........>>

    *edit* Flame shield +4 on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2006
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  2. Last of the Arrancar UNDEAD

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    You nkow that's not true.

    1st time was to investigate Ichigo.

    2nd time wasn't on Aizen's orders.

    3rd time wasd to get Hime.

    I'd say Kishi got guts to kill him, and he was cruelly beaten by an Akatsuki. I see nothing wrong in that.

    Yes I've not been totally satisfied with how things are going lately, but as you all know, Nell has been really fun, and she's been the light in the last chapters for me.

    But I'm expecting things. And I don't just quit a manga after a few lousy chapters.
     
  3. Trias For in the sleep of death...

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    And I'm not surprised even a bit. Not at all.

    *sniff*

    Actually, even though Naruto's plot was forced in Rescue Sasuke Arc, I don't think Aizen sent meaningless Arrancars. One to obliterate "possible obstacle to Aizen's plans" and one to "distract others while they're kidnapping Hime" let's not forget that other arrancar invasion was totally a out-of-order thing.

    I really fail to see how that counts as the only character development. Haku and Zabuza, Neji's and Tsunades back ground were pretty much as good as Gaara's development. I don't need to talk about minor developments, where we even get character development for guys like Zaku and Dosu. And even though Sasori's character development left many mysteries after it, even the possibilities can make one feel extreme amount of pleasure.

    Bleach did not have any chance to have an arc that would hold off, if you mean that. Bleach has just started to fall down.

    I fail to see how you find Hidan & Kakuzu Arc -that most people say one of the best of part 2- a failure... I'm damn serious, my mortal mind simply can't understand it. :oh

    Well, what can I say? Your opinions about manga stuff change like wind. I'm looking forward to day you gonna lick these words you just let out of your mouth >)

    ...

    Society Library's gonna get more silent, though...

    *sniff*

    Sweet merciful gods...
     
  4. Wobbly Active Member

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    Too many times, imo. Also, Aizen didn't really need to investigate shit. He just could have gone there himself and killed Ichigo in seconds.
     
  5. T4R0K Searching for a custom title

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    It's true that "Rescue Inoue" looks too much like "SS". Damn, even the appearance of Nell and his friends enhanced that feeling (they seem to serve the same purpose as Hanatarou "Let's help those strange outsiders that are to be considered ennemies").

    Still, I don't drop hope that there is potential in the Inoue Arc, like turning her evil, but knowing Kubo, we might not have that. Damn ! I so want Inoue to die from Ichigo's hands, with a expression of immense sadness and despair in his eyes when he delivers the final blow !! It may be cruel for the characters, but storywise... IT'S GRAND ! Or Kubo could also try to find a way to save her that would not suck. It will be very difficult for him, he might consider asking a real full time scenarist, concentrated only on writing.
     
  6. Wrath Mourning

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    I am so sick of the fail thing.
     
  7. Last of the Arrancar UNDEAD

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    The big boss doens´t go down on earth to kill a boy, are you crazy ?????

    And he still has thoughts about converting Ichigo to their team.

    I never got you, I can't understand how you can drop a manga like that. It took me months to not be glued to naruto anymore.
     
  8. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    What, you expect the Evil Overlord to kill some punk kid himself? That almost never happens.

    First Aizen sent his weakest Arrancar, Grand Fisher, to both test it and kill Ichigo. Then, when that didn't work, he sent his strongest Arrancar, Ulquiorra, who reported that Ichigo wasn't a threat. Then he sent some random Espada and Espada wannabees to act as a decoy for Orihime's abduction. All of Aizen's missions had a purpose.

    It is fair to say that Kubo sent the Arrancar to Earth too many times, though.
     
  9. Sasori <font color="#8B0000">● GB Genius ●</font>

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    lol blame it on the rules of Shonen manga xD

    But i don't disagree with what you are saying, but i have to go with LotA with this one.
     
  10. Pyroneko 28 Member

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    No, not Taichou T_T
    Yeah really.
     
  11. Toffeeman I WILL EAT YOU

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    I think the manga has been going ok personally... it just needs more Mayuri pwnage.

    Anyone else think so?
     
  12. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    I agree it seems like kubo's just repeating himself
     
  13. Hat Hair Back in Black

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    Come back, Shane, come back; you haven't finished your love affair with my mother !

    Hm, although I recognize that this is all your opinion, I think that there would be many to disagree with you as to agree re: Naruto. The opening arc featuring Zabuza is viewed quite favorably independent of other arcs and there have even been mention of returning to such a style of simple, linear storytelling. It only real fails because a lot of people's favorite characters are absent and the fights are less colorful, but, at the same time, there was still of the pretense of ninja having skills rather than super powers. 1/2 of the Chunnin Exam was an excuse to have people fight or focused on incidental basics to introduce the reader to ninjadom. That's not to say that the Zabuza arc is better than the Chunnin Exam, but I do think that it had a bit more going for it than Bleach did in the beginning.

    Pretty much; however the Rescue Sasuke arc did have an actual storyline behind everything that was happening and focused quite well on the small number of characters involved (going as far as to make some into fan favorites, i.e. Shikamaru, whose strategies actually managed to add an element of surprise to the arc) as opposed to Bleach where the fights really are not one of Kubo's strengths and id less to develop the characters involved. I've always felt that, with Bleach, characters in fights are often interchangeable; the nature of a character's ability has rarely been touched on such as recently when Ichigo, Chad, and Ishida had problems against the sand creature. Let it not be said that the man knows how to pose people, but the art's really not that kinetic, something that the anime managed to improve upon somewhat. Kubo should do a fashion manga. I wouldn't read it, but, hey, if they can make a manga about bread work... At the very least it would play more to his strengths.

    I'd agree without hindsight. With it being 20/20 I can't help feeling that Kishi really doesn't know what he wants to do. Whether he has the story planned out or not, the execution has been growing a bit too repeatitive lately.


    I've already stated that Kishimoto seems to have vague inclinations rather than solid plot, however with the, uh, Asuma Dies arc, I'd say that the storytelling was hurt by the aforementioned repeatitive nature of previous arcs. In and of itself it was handled fairly well save for Asuma's portrayal as a combatant.Ergo Proxy, you say ? I should have known... What depths would he not sink to ??

    If you take Soul Society as being one giant story than I think the Hueco Mundo arc should be taken in the same fashion with Kubo extending the brief meeting Ichigo had with SS representatives in this iteration. Really, the only difference between what has been happening in Bleach and Naruto recently is that you chose to speak up about one sooner than the other. I suppose this means (observant enough) readers of both end up getting spoiled because of their similarities, which have been played up to the hilt for a while.

    Pretty much, but I'd say Naruto II has been copying itself since the Rescue Gaara arc. Will you be continuing to read Naruto, just out of curiosity ? You shouldn't have any problems filling the "void" left with Bleach and/or Naruto's absences. Who knows, maybe all you really need is a break to get some fresh air.
     
  14. Wobbly Active Member

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    @Marsala & LotA: You may be right, but I still think that it was just an excuse by Kubo to make the characters fight. It just seemed like a bunch of random fights set up by so-so story telling.

    I just can't get past that line of thought. :/

    @Hat Hair: I'm confused. Are you aware that Ergo Proxy is an anime?

    @Trias: I only said that I wasn't going to read any more chapters..... I'm more of an anime guy anyway. I'm still going to watch the Bleach anime to see the best fights of the latest manga chapters, like Ikkaku/Eduardo.
    A fellow Mayuritard!?!:omg
    Everytime I hit "View Post", I'm reminded of why I keep you on ignore.
     
  15. Low-fi Boy Head in the clouds

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    Maybe you should be more open to the mangaka's telling the story they want to tell, rather than the story you want them to tell. But meh, say they're failing all you want, no-ones twisting your arm to read it each week, you're quite right to not read it anymore if you're beginning to dislike the way its going. But did you have to be so long-winded and announce it in a thread?
     
  16. Wobbly Active Member

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    I was giving comparisons on the two storyteller's stories.:oh The last part about me not reading Bleach anymore was for ppl that I talk to outside of NF, so I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

    Just as how no one is twisting my arm to read Bleach, no one twisted your arm to read my thread.:oh
     
  17. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    *wonders how many people complaining now will be saying they never lost faith at all once things pick up or branch off in an unexpected direction :/

    I don't really have any problems at all, I am confident in kubo's ability to tie things together and create a plotline that I'll find interesting and I'll just patiently wait for it to develop rather than jumping straight in and whining.

    Its incredibly hard to keep a weekly manga's story constantly flowing and enjoyable and i'm sure if you read other series on a weekly basis you'd find something like this happens in them as well. Once this arc is tied up if you go back and read it through in one go I'm sure it'll probably seem considerably better than it might have done when you are waiting in eager anticipation every week for your manga dose

    (is well aware this is likely to be rather off topic but just wanted to vent =p)
     
  18. Hat Hair Back in Black

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    Yeah, I know, I'm just messing around. Still, I'd be interested in knowing if you do plan to keep reading Naruto ?
     
  19. Wobbly Active Member

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    lol, I stopped months ago. I would only download a chapter that someone said was good..........which was rare........>>

    I also downloaded the Asuma chapters because he's one of my faves, but I wept inside.
     
  20. jonat3 Active Member

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    The first arc was a setup to heighten the impact of the end of the SS arc. If people were to judge the manga solely based on the first arc, bleach would just be a stereotypical shounen series. Kubo probably planned it this way, in order to produce a better shock with the end of the SS arc.

    There are no complaints about how Kubo handled the first and second arc. It's how the third arc handles things that people start complaining. I can understand why they think the third arc sucks, because it has elements that are annoying for shounen readers.

    Nearly everyone started getting emo at the beginning of the third arc and emo characters are particularly annoying for us that want to feel excitement and wonder. To Kubo's credit, he's been trying to minimize the amount of chapters this happened and most of them quickly overcame their problems.

    Then Kubo decided to bring in some favourites and brought us Hitsugaya and company as school kids. Which was pretty nice, however Kubo hardly capitalized on the concept. The interaction between shinigami and the school was kept at a bare minimum. I was already looking forward to this interaction, but Kubo decided not to pursue it.

    The vaizards and Ichigo dealing with his hollow were the highlights of this arc. Finally, we didn't have to be depressed with moody characters when reading the third arc. It's this part that finally gives us the feeling that we are still reading bleach.
    But then a new wave of depression hits and Inoue gets kidnapped. Characters start getting emo ONCE more. Fortunately Ichigo quickly gets over it with the help of his friends and they decide to set off.

    Basically, the third arc has been disliked by many, because of CHARACTER DEVELOPEMENT. Since there are so many characters, Kubo needs to devote some pages to them. And he tried doing it right at the beginning of the third arc. I'm not surprised to hear people complaining.
    Still, i have some hope, because i know that character developement is a must, so i can bear with it. My only real gripe is that Kubo should have focused more on the interaction between school life and the shinigami.

    As for how this arc is similar to the SS arc, i'll have to wait and see. I find it doubtful that Kubo didn't have enough inspiration. The story only really started at the end of the SS arc afterall. The SS arc was the introduction to the main story. I can't imagine that the main story will resemble a mere INTRODUCTION.
    As of now, i agree that it looks like it's a copy of the SS arc. But i'm expecting that things will drastically change down the road.
     
  21. FrostXian Messiah With An Attitude

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    I only have two things to say.
    1) I like the was Asuma went out, shows Shinobi doesn't always go with a bang, and remembered us people CAN die (unlike Bleach).
    2) Rescue Orihime arc has a minor difference, she appears to have turncoated somehow.
     
  22. Hiruma The King has Come!

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    Kuno and Kishi are both failing in only one way: they messed up and made their main characters too weak.
     
  23. Yamato (Inactive) Banned

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    246, the chapter that ruined Bleach!

    We need more HAG to make it better :thumbs
     
  24. Khamzul Read over there ->

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    I simply disagree. And how can you say that Naruto is failing when you have not read all the newest chapters (or did I just misread you there?). I think that the series are taking a new direction now, and I'm looking forward to the next chapters.

    Why series tend to get worse as time goes on:
    I think some series are best when they are kept mystic (ie. the power of Akatsuki and Bijuus in Naruto before timeskip). It makes things unpredictable and exiting, and you feel that you are apart of something that may become big.

    But a manga can't keep on like that forever:
    At some point so much have been revealed that it has lost it's mystic touch. But, does it make it more boring? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. An example would be the newest chapters of Naruto, it shows that Kishimoto can break the norm, and that people can die in his fiction.


    Personally I think that Bleach has had little story for the latest chapters, but then again, it was always the art and fight's that made me read Bleach in the past. And Kubo has surprised us before (Aizen), and I'm looking forward to many things in Bleach including the Royal Guard, "the King", numerous Bankai's, abilities and releases and most of all: The Winter War.

    A good idea:
    This works for me.
    Get some distance to the series. When following manga's week by week they don't have the flow of a normal story. I like to reread the intire arc after it is finished. This helps me get emotinally involved and focused on the story and get me in to the "feeling" of the fiction. It's just like being forced to read only 1 page of a book every week. You lose much in form of continuation and feeling. I reread the first chapters of bleach a few weeks ago, and realised how funny and interesting it was, even though I thought it boring when I read it first.

    Hope this helps - Khamzul.
     
  25. Kisame Banned

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    he needs more tousen and ryuuken
     
  26. xiaojiang Renji Lover

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    have to say i'm disappointed with the lastest arc but i'm still crossing my fingers for the best.
     
  27. Yak on a Forums Break

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    I don't care. I started the series, I will finish it, regardless of the outcome, whether it pleases me or not. I've already read to many shonen-manga to still go "OMG, this suxxorz, it's repetitive and no one dies *crycry*".
     
  28. Wrath Mourning

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    Reading Bleach (or Naruto, or etc) takes so little effort, it always seems silly to me when people are outraged. It doesn't cost me anything and all I have to do is download a few files a week, which take a few minutes each to read.

    If I had to, say, trek three miles through snow to get my weekly fix of manga, that would be a different story.
     
  29. Trias For in the sleep of death...

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  30. Parell Sushi = love

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    A agree with you that Bleach is going downhill. I find myself going here less and less. But the Asuma arc, for the most part, was very enjoyable, so I still have hope for Naruto ,and am vainly holding out hope for Bleach.
     
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