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12-year-old boy who had a sex change regrets it two years later

Discussion in 'The NF Covfefé' started by Saishin, Sep 13, 2017 at 3:00 AM.

  1. Normality venus

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    Lol a few semesters ago i had a sociology teacher. She tried saying that letting children do this was okay because most ppl suffering from this type of condition kill themselves. Her argument was if u let kids do these hormonal treatments then they might not kill themselves. Mind u these treatments are known to cause cancer.

    I was always skeptical of the claim that sjws are common in academics till this teacher. She also argued that female genital mutilation was the same as men getting circumsized...... she also said that the reason ppl in backwards countries still practice fgm is because white ppl/ western ppl tried to get them to stop but were condecending about it and thus had the opposite effect..... this bitch was madd annoying.
     
  2. Mider T VM Rapist

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    I lol'd how you returned to the Cafe with such a low-key comment.
     
  3. Xiammes Well-Known Member Super Moderator

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    When I was going through puberty I was so sure of myself and I thought I had everything figured out, I wouldn't have waited to make a permanently life altering change if I thought it would benefit me. Now I just want to go back in time and smack some sense into my youngerself for making relatively minor mistakes.

    Honestly I wouldn't even allow this at 18 years old, yours still coming out of that hotbed of societal pressure and still haven't come to fully understand yourself. Though I guess its unreasonable to make it some arbitrary age, I think its best to consider massive changes after you have left school and have gotten into the job market.
     
  4. Yoshua Muscle Chick Connoisseur

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  5. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    "Which is why the defendant had sex with that 12 year old, your honor."
     
  6. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    Seriously though, a kid "knowing what they want" isn't the point. They are not fully developed and people change over time. A decision which physically and/or psychologically effects someone at 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42... should not be made on the whims of a 12 year old.

    The idea that you should "give kids more credit" with respect to permanently altering their body before they've even finished developing their brains is frankly absurd.
     
  7. Kitsune `★.。・:*:・ Super Moderator Advisor

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    Doctors swear to "do no harm" so any action taken on their part must be done with the utmost care and caution. Refraining from performing an irreversible operation or hormone treatment on a young child for the sake of caution is totally reasonable if the child doesn't meet extremely rigorous criteria for the treatment.

    My concern is that a case like this is often held up to comment on the larger issue of gender identity. Seeing some random internet news article about a kid with regrets is going to lead to conversations about the legitimacy of gender dysphoria as a whole.

    Just because an operation may or may not be the right choice at a certain age doesn't lessen the legitimacy of a child claiming to feel like the opposite gender.

    Protecting children from juvenile mistakes is one (important) thing but it can be falsely presented as the motivating factor for people who are simply uncomfortable with the idea of gender reassignment. It's not a huge leap from this notion to say that anybody with gender dysphoria is unstable and unable to determine what's best for them. That's what actually bothers me about the leaps in logic I see sprouting from this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017 at 1:26 PM
  8. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    But it's not productive for that discourse to downplay the idiocy involved with gender reassignment to children that haven't even gone through puberty yet.
    You can maintain a firm stance on the following:
    a) kids can and do have gender dysphoria
    b) sex reassignment is an available and helpful resource to accommodating gender dysphoria

    WITHOUT adding the following:
    a) kids who haven't even gone through puberty have a reliable stance on their gender identity for the rest of their life
    b) sex reassignment should be applicable to adolescents, and hormonal therapy and puberty blockers are good solutions to kids with gender dysphoria

    A 12 year old will undergo physiological changes throughout their teens. Is that not relevant to their gender identity? Is that not worth waiting out before deciding to change a kid so much that they have to undergo an operation to remove breast tissue merely two years into their therapy?
     
  9. Kitsune `★.。・:*:・ Super Moderator Advisor

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    I get what you're saying and I mostly agree with you.

    There's a part of me that thinks there are rare cases out there where gender reassignment for a kid might be appropriate. I'm clearly no expert in this area and I can't back this notion up with anything solid, which is why I do appreciate you always asking the hard questions.

    It's better to error on the side of caution and have the kid wait, but (without meaning to get too extreme) if the kid is suicidally miserable and meets all kinds of rigorous psychological and medical criteria for the operation, I can't totally close my mind to the idea that it might be beneficial in certain circumstances.
     
  10. HolyHands Let me touch you

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    Who's downplaying it? If anything, medical professionals are keenly aware that it's possible for gender identity to turn out to be just a phase, that's precisely why no medical professional worth their salt will advocate injecting little Timmy with hormones the moment he says he wants to play with dolls. Don't think stories like the OP are mainstream. Gender transition is a slow, cautious, methodical process that doesn't even involve chemicals at first. Generally it means letting people explore their identity and analyzing them all the while, seeing if their dysphoria is legit or not. If the gender dysphoria leads to negative mental issues such as depression and suicide is when more permanent treatments enter the fray.

    It's perfectly possible for a child to want to change gender at first and then change their mind later. It's ALSO possible for a child to want to change gender at first and then still want to transition years later, well into adulthood. People advocate for transition early on because the alternative, if the child is truly transgender, means cosigning that child to years/decades of potentially debilitating dysphoria. We're not talking about something like saying a kid can't get tattoos until they're 18, because not getting a tattoo won't kill you. Going through years of gender dysphoria on the other hand, CAN kill you, and if often does, as pre-transition individuals have dramatically high rates of attempted suicide. It's extremely important to balance the risks of mistakenly taking hormones, and letting a person suffer through years of mental disorders caused by gender dysphoria.

    This is not an easy question, and I am not advocating we ignore the risks involved, but if it turns out that we can't reliably determine if someone is transgender or not. The solution isn't to just throw up our hands and say "welp, come back when you're 21", the solution is to improve and perfect how we determine these things in the first place. Think of it this way, if we had a method to determine transgenderism with 100% accuracy, would you still demand that the person suffer through 18+ years of suicide-causing dysphoria, or do we help them out?
     
  11. Saishin Hajimemashite

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    I was sarcastic :hurr
    Science can be very scarying :hehee
     
  12. GaaraoftheDesert1 commemorating failure

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    I dont give much of a fuck about SJW.
    They arent really a huge part of the population... and what you are saying about Trump's "drain the swamp" promises is true... but Hillary's policies were pretty much "I am not racist, homophobic, transphobic so vote for me".
    So essentially most democrats have weaponized these kind of ideas instead of talking about policies....
     
  13. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    That's a grounded and responsible point, so I can't argue with it. I have to agree with you; in extreme cases where the child's life is legitimately at risk, big interventions may indeed by necessary.

    If we knew with 100% accuracy that a child's gender dypshoria will remain static throughout their development, then of course it would be totally okay to perform physical interventions, even if they're permanent. But clearly that isn't the case.

    Not only is it not the case, but we know that the majority of cases where a child is suspected of suffering from gender dysphoria don't have the condition past puberty. This is because most signs exhibited at an early age are the result of homosexuality rather than transsexualism. A 'feminine' boy who identifies with a lot of girls activities and likes boys might get the desire to look more like a female to align with social roles in a more comfortable manner, without actually having dysphoria over their sexual organs. Not surprising since their sexual organs are barely even active yet. Once their hormonal changes take effect, their more innate dispositions are contextualized better with their sexuality, and hence most cases disappear. This doesn't mean an 8 year old girl who identifies as a boy is wrong about her identity and desire; it means in many cases this is a premature conclusion relative to her bodily changes, which can (and usually does) influence her self perception.

    Further, you bring up the following logical process as indicative of why interventions are harmless:
    • A child who has gender dysphoria and changes their mind later can simply reverse the intervention and move on
    • A child who has gender dysphoria and maintains their identity later on has saved years of emotional damage by undergoing intervention early
    • Therefore tending to the child's needs early on is preventative and harmless.

    This is extremely irresponsible. When you undergo something even as reversible as hormone therapy early on you are messing with the child's physiology, which will influence their self perception. A child who identifies as female prior to completing puberty may change their mind if their natural development alters their hormonal balance, but if they are given estrogen to combat their puberty they may remain as they are as a direct result of that altered physiology. In the worst case scenario it might leave them more confused, more dissatisfied and consequently more depressed/suicidal.


    As it stands, the current procedure uses hormone therapy and puberty blockers as a last resort in treatment of gender dysphoria, which is good. What isn't good is that the last resort isn't strict enough. If a child is not necessarily suicidal, and not necessarily clinically depressed, but throws enough of a fuss and pushes for it hard enough, they will receive therapy at their parent's consent. That's exactly how the boy in the story in the OP underwent their transition. That's not okay.

    I'll reiterate four key points:

    1. The majority of children suspected of gender dysphoria have different self perceptions post puberty.
    2. Hormonal balances and puberty influence gender identity.
    3. Not allowing for puberty to take its course before intervening manufactures a bias toward a particular sense of identity in the patient.
    4. While suicidal and depressed children may be in necessary need of intervention regardless of potential long term consequences, this is not where the line is drawn for access.
     
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  14. Skaddix Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying kids don't know what they want but a major gender reassignment surgery before a kid is out of puberty seems sketch to me.
     
  15. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Weren't there a number of improper procedures with this case that separates it from the usual (and extremely rare) cases of transition?
     
  16. hcheng02 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that current medical practice is actually RECOMMEND children who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria to transition as soon as possible. The idea is that doing so before puberty allows the child to pass themselves off more easily as the opposite sex as adults since they won't have their physical appearance be affected by puberty. The problem is that there are a minority of people who transition but regret it.

    This article actually does a pretty good job explaining the medical concerns about this.


     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM
  17. HolyHands Let me touch you

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    Good to hear.

    Whoa whoa whoa, hold up. When did I ever say that? If anything, I insisted that there IS indeed a risk if a child is misdiagnosed. But again, the solution isn't to avoid transitioning at all, but to better our diagnosis procedure. The risk is precisely why medial professionals encourage simply letting the child explore their identities first, then social transitioning later, then hormone transitioning if the feelings persist, and lastly surgery if the individuals decides to go that far.

    I think everybody is in agreement that what happened in the OP is bad. Almost nobody recommends hormones at 12.

    I think your concerns are valid and worth investigating. My primary criticism is this idea that people use stories like OP to push the narrative that doctors are pushing for pumping hormones into kids as early as possible, when the reality is much more careful and nuanced.
     
  18. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    Maybe two years from now he'll regret regretting it.
     
  19. Plague Punches People in the Face

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    Regretception! :lbj
     
  20. Le Male Absolu Well-Known Member

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  21. Mithos Chosen One

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    Children usually become aware of their gender and gender identity by age 4. Puberty can be a very tough time for transgender kids/teens because their body might be changing in ways that really don't want and don't identify with; puberty blockers can be absolutely vital for their self-esteem and mental health. Hormones and puberty blockers are reversible, as well, so when prescribed appropriately, in conjunction with counseling, there is no little risk of harm. In the rare case that they want to detransition, they can so. There's much more risk of harm in not allowing a child to take them.

    Making trans teens stay in and develop in a body that they cannot stand and think doesn't represent them is cruel, and parents/guardians are not doing their child any favors by forcing them to endure that until they turn 18.

    All these strong negative reactions in this thread are little more than transphobia. Contrary to popular belief, kids and teens often know themselves a lot better than adults give them credit for.
     
  22. Tae Member

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    (Using singular they here since the kid seems to still be conflicted about who they are)

    I'm puzzled by the fact that it wasn't until their teachers started calling them by female pronouns that they started questioning their decision. Does that mean their parents and/or friends (whoever they socialized with in the two years where they apparently felt okay with transitioning) didn't call them by female pronouns in the two years after starting transitioning?

    The whole thing sounds suspect. Not on their feelings but the actions of the parents and doctors.
     
  23. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I'm transphobic or uncomfortable. Families whose children go through this get counseling to deal with what's happening. Mothers and fathers of transgender children go into grief counseling to deal with the death of their 'son' and the emergence of their new daughter. They have support groups. This seems like something that's traumatizing for the people involved, and it seems plainly normal to be uncomfortable about little boys becoming little girls and vice versa. Not derisory. Not hateful. But uncomfortable.
     
  24. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    @HolyHands @Kitsune @hcheng02

    Take a good look at this. Someone seriously types on their keyboard that "children become aware of their gender identity by age 4", and then throws in the T-word for good measure. This level of absurdity is alive and strong, and at least partially influences procedures like this. Imagine a parent with this type of thinking.


    I don't really know how to point out something as common sense as "4 year olds don't have a reliable, consistent understanding of their mature identity because they're 4 fucking years old". I really don't. It seems too redundant to do so I won't. I'll post a study instead, and maybe this person can counter me with something better.

    Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children.
     
  25. hcheng02 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I actually agree with you that we shouldn't start transitioning children. The problem is that its become intertwined with all sorts of transgender activism and all the SJW hysteria that entails. At this point, your viewpoint that children are not mature enough to think about transitioning genders would qualify you as a transphobe to many trans activists.



    The article actually continues on for several pages after that, but is too long to place entirely here. But basically, transgender SJWs are putting ideology over actual medicine and science and shutting down debate on proper treatment options.
     
  26. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I don't believe children's gender identities are false or even unreliable as of when they express it. If a 4 year old boy legitimately "feels" like they were born into the wrong body, I'm inclined to believe them. I just find it absurd to make physical alterations to their body based on that before they've even gone through puberty, since puberty has a drastic effect on hormonal balance and self perception. Undergoing therapy prior to puberty introduces an artificial bias into the child's gender identity as well, a bias put into place based on their psycho-physiological state as an adolescent.

    In extreme circumstances reassignment therapy shouldn't be off the table, but generally speaking? A little sanity, please.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017 at 12:49 AM
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  27. Agent9149 Well-Known Member

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    Something's not right here. Kids that young don't usually transition. The very most they do is go on puberty blockers.

    Most transition for children is superficial and social. You know, hairstyle change, wardrobe change, change their names and pronouns. I'm very pressed to hear of children that go to through hormonal therapy so young. And even then it's not so changing or irreversible.
     
  28. Yoshua Muscle Chick Connoisseur

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    Okay, first off, hold up.

    Back up. I neeeeeeed you to back up for a moment. Just take... like, one or two steps back, alright?

    Alright, good, good. Now let's take a little looksey into this bolded statement of yours, shall we?

    "All these strong negative reactions in this thread are little more than transphobia."

    Actually, it isn't. I know, I know, must be hard for you to believe that someone disagreeing with you on this topic could possibly not be transphobic, but crazier shit has happened, amirite? I don't think most people give a shit if someone wants to turn into a woman or a guy. I KNOW that I don't.

    What I, and I assume many others care about, is a kid choosing to undergo a surgery that they could possibly regret and end up costing them lots of money or trauma, or humiliation.


    See, the thing is... your second statement? I've seen kids. And more often than not, kids are what I like to call little shits. Self entitled brats who think they know better. They're disillusioned and believe they know what's best... and more often than not, it ends up biting them in the ass.

    Are there exceptions? Sure. But the only thing kids have in common with adults is their arrogance. And more often than not, a kid is going to end up doing something that they'd regret, because they're impulsive, tend to not think about consequences, or not think about their decisions in the long run.

    But please, try pulling that transphobic shit again. I am BEGGING you to do it.
     
  29. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't seem to be the consensus, but it's hard to wade through social agendas. I keep pulling up agreement with mithos' post; children frequently know their gender at an early prepubescent age, social transitioning increases their mental health and doctors are loosening their stance on hormone blockers because puberty can become traumatizing.
     
  30. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    Oh okay. No need to cite anything, I'll take your word for it.
     

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