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233: a different analysis

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by leesan, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. leesan

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    hey look another 223 thread!
    yes these are getting a bit tedious but I just wanted to throw in my 2cents and consolidating a bit what was said in the other threads. So this isn't about about whos better than who, but an analysis of the sequence of events that led to naruto lying on the floor.

    notice on the first page, naruto does not have a round swirling ball in his palm and neither does sasuke have black lightning crackling out of his hand. I propose the same outcome as the last clash of jutsus, most of their attack was largely negated in a huge giant blast. Only the regular kyubbi chakra flowing around naruto remains. And relative to the a chidori, a weaker residual chakra sheath on sasuke's hand.

    also notice, in the 2nd frame sasuke has his hand completely extended/fingers pointing forward that is pretty much tangent to naruto's collar. Then 3rd frame we "see" some noise/impact and his fingers now bent portraying that he had made contact. (This would be the 3rd frame since the manga reads right to left).

    Next sequence we see naruto's hands almost (couple of inches) but clearly not having made contact with sasuke's head.

    So it seems pretty clear to me that sasuke got the 1st strike and interrupted naruto's attack.


    possible objections and rebuttals:

    But what about the mark on sasuke's headband!

    Obviously thats a reference by our lovable author back to those comments from sasuke. Also remember the chakra surrounding naruto isn't like a stupid smooth rubber suit. The chakra flows, moves, and spikes around naruto. A chakra spike carved that mark on sasuke's headband. If their was a rasengan the headband would've exploded. If there was anytype of rasengan, weak or strong, the effects would be much different than a slick carve.

    Also given that sasuke has the sharingan which was the whole point of kakashi developing the chidori jutsu (as lee said, he wouldn't dash into an opponent like that because he didn't have those eyes, only a sharingan user could because they can see the counter and adjust accordingly), sasuke would've read naruto's hand movements and adjusted to it. But just as sasuke couldn't read kyuubi's chakra before he messed up by a small margin and allowed the dangerous chakra to get in a bit too close.

    if sasuke didn't hit naruto with a full on chidori then naruto would still be ok

    *edit to lee comparison 2.0 remember people "Analogous", not saying specifically the same!
    Despite it not being a chidori or possibly a rather crappy chidori, sasuke still has considerable strength and speed that in his normal state is about the same as lee's speed. Now take into account that sasuke is not in his normal state here: he has unleashed 2 levels of curse seals immensely boosting his chakra and enhancing him physically. Dashing at that kinda speed with that kind of strength and momentum...at naruto's jugular... when naruto has been weakened and a bit battered along with the negative effects of the kyuubi chakra...a strike like that could very well take him out. its almost analogous to an unweighted lee enhancing himself along the lines sasuke did by going cs2 by opening gates (pick a # for gates you feel appropriate. also note not saying sasuke is as fast as lee in primary lotus mode just saying sasuke with cs2 should be at least faster than an unweighted normal lee ), now throw some extra sharp chakra on his foot and dash kick naruto in the throat, a place of vulnerability second only to the crotch :)

    Naruto weakend his rasengan, he let sasuke win
    *note above. Um why would he. Thats equivalent to naruto letting sasuke go to oro. Sure he wasn't out to kill sasuke, but his promise to sakura wasn't "I'll definitely leave a mark on sasuke's forehead", it was "I'll definitely bring him back". A forehead mark isn't naruto trying to fufill his promise. Also naruto said he would break every bone in sasuke's body and drag his pulp back to konoha if he had to. This guy was not intending to pull punches, and when you have a chidori in your face you're not in a superior position to be pulling punches anyways.

    Well hope I made sense :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2004
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  2. Desca

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    Sasuke isn't nearly as fast as Lee, or i is AS fast as Lee when Lee removes his weights. Nothing more. And he can't keep that speed for very long because of his lacking stamina. So i don't get the thing about speed your babling about. Lee's speed is abnormal, no one can easily obtain that speed without side effects (Read; Sasuke gets tired fast). And the Gates? Pffh. I don't need to comment that :p


    (Slap me if i misread)
     
  3. Spectrum

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    Best analysis I've seen yet, leesan. Nice work.

    This part in particular, I hope people take notice of. I agree completely--why would Naruto hold back, knowing what would happen if he let Sasuke win? Giving up his chance at victory just to make a point would be one of the stupidest things he could do, considering how much was riding on the outcome.

    Yeah, there are a lot of them, but I can understand why some people would rather not post something they want to actually get noticed in a 300-post-thread. =P So far, I haven't minded the abundance of threads too much.
     
  4. Yaman

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    WOW! you really thoght that out. Props
     
  5. Narrrf

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    Bravo. That made a lot more sense than the other ideas. You really didn't leave out anything.
     
  6. leesan

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    Hm
    Correct me if im wrong
    But doesn't lee say "he has the same body speed as me" during sasuke's fight against gaara so in which case is close enough to be put in the same category. My comment about lee with opened gates is merely describing how sasuke is equivalent in speed to an unweighted lee speed ...now quite enhanced by cs2 as lee was was enhanced by opening gates since both involve physical enhancements as well as boosting chakra amount at the cost of the body...so like imagining lee going for a very powerful dashing kick in that state is in essence analogous to our current situation. Of course one could nickpick at details and differences but thats why i said analogous =). But despite those comments I hope my fundamental reasoning in describing the fight was not faulty.
     
  7. SaiST Retired Staff

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    Volume 13, Chapter 114, Page 5, Panel 4:

    <Maito Gai> He's about the same speed as... Lee without the weights.

    <Rock Lee> You have the same body speed that I had... But you also have the Sharingan!


    When Lee stated that it consumed a lot of Sasuke's stamina, he said it as if he was relating to him. And the fact that he was able to resume his normal speed-- Even when he fought Gaara in the forest after chasing after him so long, proves that he isn't lacking in this area. If Lee has more, it doesn't mean much, he can keep it up for a good long while.

    And it's been shown that with his Sharingan he doesn't need to waste too many movements while keeping the same pace, conserving stamina and chakra.

    He can't pull off no Ura Renge, and I don't expect him too, but Sasuke can open the Initial Gate.
     
  8. Psychogenic

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    Big ups to you!! One of the best posts out their! Them Sasuke and Naruto fanboys have been annoying me a lot lately.
    Messed with that reputation thing and gave you one up on it.
     
  9. Desca

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    Nope, Sasuke will never be as fast as Lee with the open gates. Not even close.


    Sai, keep the gate thing in the other topic, and btw, i wasnt saying that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2004
  10. SaiST Retired Staff

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    And I don't see Lee using 3 or more Gates like that ever again unless the situation was extremely desperate considering all the suffering he went through since his fight with Gaara.

    I see, you were just saying he couldn't match speed with Lee when he went into Ura Renge. Not that Sasuke couldn't use them.
     
  11. Desca

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    Yup, thats right ^_~
     
  12. Narutofan

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    i believe there's a very simple explanation for this outcome.
    Kismo told us that the gap between Sasuke and Naruto is so close that the only deciding factor of the outcome of the battle lies in the forehead protector... (of course there are other symbolism in it but let's not carry away with how the resengan in not good at this and that and how the chakra goes to waste.)
     
  13. leesan

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    ok made a change to lee comparison. Was merely trying to convey the possible force behind such an attack by describing an attack by someone we are more familiar with. Or at least with someone that I like :)
     
  14. Erishon

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    I disagree with the fact that Sasuke forced Naruto to aim high - In my opinion it's more Naruto being Naruto and going all out to prove his point. He's so caught up on Sasuke constantly telling him he'll never lay a finger on his forehead that he aims there despite the fact that he's in the middle of a kill or be killed battle and about to be hit by a super-charged Chidori. He's so stupid, if he had actually tried to hit Sasuke he probably could have, and I'm betting if he had Sasuke would have ended up just as injured (if not worse) than Naruto was afterwards. Stupid Baka Naruto!
     
  15. brianbaguto

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    I dont know if its just me, but I see naruto's eyes open and close sometimes. Then theres when sasuke leans over in pain, and spits blood. I think just like with kabuto, rasengan took its affect late. We'll just have to wait till next chapter to see the outcome.
     
  16. leesan

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    Hm.We've only seen kyuubi's healing effects a few times so we can't be sure how it works, how often it works, and basically its reliability and the extent. What we do know is that kyuubi can only help naruto so much before things go awry. When kyuubi started pumping naruto with extra chakra and enveloping him in the shape of the fox, in a while naruto lost the use of one of his arms. This suggests that since naruto is an imperfect container that limits the kyuubi's power and the amount of help it can give him, if kyuubi tries too hard or does too much it backfires and stops working. And in this scenario yuubi apparently had reached this point where it could no longer keep feeding naruto and trying to force heal his body like normal.

    Hm this brings me to a curious topic. What if another part of naruto went numb and stopped working...like his heart or brain. Wow that would suck.
     
  17. pajamas

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    great analysis d00d O_o
     
  18. leesan

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    Or it could be the sharingan at work. Or a rather straightforward but obscure reason. Sasuke is physically taller than naruto. So more often than not that would suggest sasuke would simply have longer arms which means naruto would get hit first. Where am I getting this? Remember the bridge mission where the old guy is first introduced to team 7 and he makes fun of naruto for being the shortest out of the three.

    But yea you could very well be right but I dont want to think that naruto cares more about his ego and scratching sasuke's forehead than about his promise to sakura.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2004
  19. Spin

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    here's my take on the nine tales power that is given to naruto. nine tails doesn't want naruto to die because he doesn't know what will happen to him. but it's not like nine tails and naruto are friends either. nine tails will only give naruto enough energy to survive. And that's all. nine tails controls naruto at this point more than naruto controlling him. This may change as has been hinted by the Frog Senin training.

    So until naruto is able to control the kyuubi power, he will only be able to match the opponents and not surpass them. I think all narutos fights highlight the strengths of his opponents rather than highlight his own.
     
  20. ChickenPotPie

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    Eh? Did you read 231, 229 or see any of the Haku fight? Those weren't equal fights of any kind.
     
  21. Spin

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    I'm going to have to disagree. Sasuke has the sharingan evolved and the cursed seal. If there was a real difference in ability, sasuke would be on the floor and naruto would be healed like nothing happened. kyuubi is that strong. With tails that can turn mountains into dust and cause hurricane-like winds with the flick of its tail. I think you are underestimating nine tails and sasuke.
     
  22. ChickenPotPie

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    How would Kyuubi know how powerful Sasuke was before he sprouted wings? Naruto received his power-up before Sasuke did. It's the reason why Naruto was punching Sasuke around in both Chapters I mention. And this still doesn't explain the battle between Naruto and Haku, which we know the outcome of.
     
  23. Spin

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    well the only proof to my theory is that kyuubi is a lot strong than what was displayed in that battle and would definitely not be passed out on the ground. But naruto is laying on the ground. If necessary, kyuubi could heal naruto right now and after one nights rest, naruto is healed anyway.

    The battles that really brought me to this idea was the garaa, kabuto, and now sasuke fight. The fights that don't really fit this mold are haku, neji, and the others.
     
  24. leesan

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    Hm I think I covered this in my previous posts in this thread. Well in any case, i think someone put it best saying kyuubi naruto does not equal kyuubi. As stated before in the manga, naruto is not a good container for the kyuubi's power so only a small fraction of it can be released. And as the last chapter indicated, going above a certain threshold namely a prologuned second kyuubi transformation does damage to naruto himself and his ability to continue using the ninetails chakra starts degrading. Which makes complete sense. Think about lee. Gates normally regulate the chakra flow and keep it within reason depending on how well the body can handle it. Opening the gates takes off these limits so the body runs rampant with the chakra and in doing so screws up the person. What we have here is kyuubi trying to force more chakra through naruto than he is really naturally suppose to and able to handle.

    Or an entirely different comparison...overclocking your cpu. a pentiumII is a pentiumII, you can only push it limit so much before you completely fry it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2004
  25. Spin

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    leesan, that could be, but it's not necessarily so. naruto has already been fried without the help of kyuubi. It seems to be the case that kyuubi not only can give naruto tons of power, but also reinforce his body so he can handle whatever comes to pass. The only reason kyuubi doesn't give naruto power is because the only thing kyuubi can control is the amount of power he gives, not what naruto decides to do with it. Naruto is a prison for kyuubi. But being alive is more important to kyuubi than being trapped.

    When Lee opens gates, he's putting his life on a knife's edge. He doesn't have a seemingly limitless well of energy like naruto. And running out of energy or chakra seems to be the way a character can be disabled or killed.

    And finally, it's just my stupid theory, and I'm happy with it :D
     
  26. leesan

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    I guess thats the focal point of our differences of thought. imo, kyuubi can only reinforce naruto's body and give him chakra up to a certain point. Any further and parts of naruto's body starts shutting down as witnessed when he lost use of his arm. Also on a slight tangent, if kishimoto does put it this way in which basically naruto = kyuubi, then that kind of makes the whole story rather pointless. Then he'd be currently stronger than any hokage ever and wouldn't need to train, and actually supports neiji's previous mentality that one's destiny is decided upon their birth.

    Ah a saturday, cheers! :)
     
  27. Spectrum

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    In this case, too much may potentially be just as bad as too little, though. I think it's reasonable to assume that if there's such as thing as chakra burnout, chakra overload probably exists as well. (After all, isn't that why a person's chakra capacity starts out relatively small and increases as they get older and stronger--because they're more physically capable of handling it?)

    Again, it has been said in the manga and anime that Naruto is not the ideal container for Kyuubi's chakra. Not only that, but we saw clear evidence of this in the previous chapter (232, pg 7--"That power of yours, too... of course there was a risk..."). So since we can't see any actual physical wounds on Naruto in this chapter, meaning that he is quite likely healed, and yet he's still out cold, exhaustion from Kyuubi's chakra seems like the best explanation to me.

    ...Now I feel bad. XD
     
  28. .akai

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    if Sasuke's Chidori had actually hit Naruto, would'nt there be a hole in his chest area? I mean before he left a hole in his shoulder, but now. There isn't anything. Maybe. Sasuke Missed, and Naruto Hit then passed out. And Sasuke realized he lost and as the light went away its showing that Sasuke is leaving to Oro?!?!??!
     
  29. shadowflare

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    I think that the rasengan made an affect on sasuke, like someone on this thread said that rasengan takes time to take affect like in the fight against kabuto. Or the first naruto-sasuke fight with the watertanks where naruto only made a smal scratch on the tank while it totally exploded insideout behind. Unlike chidori wich only makes damage on the impact, the rasengan makes further damage to the inner organs and further as seen in the kabuto fight. Everybody who thinks that sasuke was only slightly injured is misstaken because probably in the next chapter we are gonna see that his injuries are far more sirious. The scratch on his headprotector is as mentioned above only the bruise behind the damage. And there is no chance in hell that naruto is dead. Two reasons: 1. he's the main character of the manga(what would the manga be called then? sakura? :p ) 2. I think that the nine tails healed naruto while he was still transformed.

    Thats what I think :D
     
  30. leesan

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    The way the manga depicted the situation and as described in the original post, majority of both attacks cancelled out into the huge explosion. There wasn't any black lightning emmiting from sasuke's hand which means either the chidori was gone leaving only a residual chakra sheath or a very pale version of it was left. So the impact and effect of that attack was changed. Also, naruto during the time of attack had a variable kyuubi chakra surrounding him it should've also altered the consequence of the attack but nearly impossible to gauge how and by how much given naruto's current state at the time. The only thing we know from examining the closeups of the attack sequences was that sasuke did hit, naruto almost but didn't hit, and the hit was enough to knock the already injured naruto out.
     
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