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[284] Important Political Questions

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Madara, Nov 19, 2005.

  1. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    After chapter 284, the big buzz is around Konoha's political scene. Oh and Ino's flatty flat flat flatness.

    Here are two questions to think about.

    Why did Danzou oppose Sandaime?

    Is it only because he was a warhawk? Wasn't Saindaime too soft on other issues as well? Especially regarding Orochimaru and Saindaime's reluctance to kill him when he had the chance. Even Enma reproached Sarutobi for that mistake and Enma loved Sarutobi. It's not so hard to believe the political elite might reprimanded him as well on this particular issue.

    Or,

    Like Orochimaru, was Danzou sore because he wasn't elected as the Third Hokage?

    Are clan members allowed to be Hokages?

    With so many clans in Konoha, why has there never been a clan member Hokage? Some will undoubtedly claim that clan members are not well-rounded, that they are specialists. That is grossly irrelevant. No one is able to claim this with authority, yet.

    Perhaps they are not allowed because it would mean a conflict of interest. In the Sasuke/Itachi flashbacks we were shown that the Uchiha clan was self-governed. They even had a representative which was Sasuke's dad. They had secrets and secret ambitions. The fan that commanded the fire.

    It would be better for harmony that the Hokage remained an unpartial member of Konoha. Clan members could be influenced or inclined to further their own clans. Maybe install a dynasty.

    What do y'all think??
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2005
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  2. kapsi Banned

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  3. Grrblt Banned

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    I was under the impression that everyone was a member of a clan. Some clans just specialised while others didn't.
     
  4. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    Wrong impression. Name Naruto's clan, Tenten's, Jiraiya's, Sakura's, Shizune's...

    And the all the Hokages.
     
  5. Grrblt Banned

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    Just because I can't name them doesn't mean they don't exist.
    You tell me the name of the current Mizukage.
     
  6. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    Supposed, if there's a family, it's techniacally a clan.
    Anyways...

    1)Danzou is a war hawk. He loves fighting, just like Orochimaru. So of course he opposed Sarutobi, who strove for peace. Danzou probably wanted to take over Suna (for example) and Sarutobi just wanted to make peace with them. This probably pisses off Danzou a lot. He's a lot like Orochimaru in this aspect.

    2)Why haven't there been any clan member Hokages? Because there's only been 5 Hokages so far and the clans are relatively new. Remember, Konoha has been around for about 2-3 generations. There *might* be one in the future, but I doubt it. Like you said, there would be a major conflict of interest.
     
  7. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    If you can't name them, don't speculate. As I shall not speculate on who the Mizukage is. Because I could make the hypothesis that there is no Mizukage because they are still looking for one fit for the job since the last died.

    Until it is stated that the forementioned belong to a clan, we can not simply assume they do. It is a default not to have a clan, rather than the opposite.

    Clans like the Hyuugas and the Uchihas have shown an infrastructure. There is no evidence that any of the forementioned have clan responsibilites and are part of any group besides their team and village.
     
  8. CJ32X Member

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    i agree with grrblt, and also when you are hokage i think it is required to not be attached to a certain clan or a certain side of thinking, i believe if sasuke or neji would want to be hokage they can try but they arent able because sasuke is a missing nin who is with orochimaru and neji can be restricted but any of the head family members

    and danzou opposed sandaime because sandaime was more peaceloving and danzou wanted war. a better question, rather would be why should the 5th consider sai if she is suspicious of him, and why should she even consider a compromise, just because they are elders, doesnt doesnt mean their right, just as "root" was dissolved.
     
  9. Grrblt Banned

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    I have faint memories of you speculating why no clan ninjas have been Hokage. You have zero proof for this.

    Until it is stated that some people are not part of any clan, we can simply assume that everyone is. How do you know that it is default not to be part of a clan? Let me guess: you're just making stuff up.
     
  10. CJ32X Member

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    a clan is a family last name so to speak, so uzumaki naruto, uzumaki clan, uchiha sasuke, uchiha, hyguya neji, etc, a clan is considered from a big family or so, look at chouji or shikamaru or ino, all of them from clans all of them dont have big huge clans like neji's or sasuke, (that we know of), and so there you have you clan/last name arguement, same thing, except some people organize their clan, other's mix or whatever,

    i think it is common(in naruto) for someone of the same clan/family can see each other romantically just as southern hillbilly people, you know cousins and such, hell even neji when he was younger was scoping hinata out.

    then again can naruto even date hinata, or any other clan, up to the clan i guess, who knows?
     
  11. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    Are you joking? For a guy who is proclaiming that Naruto is part of clan, considering he is an orphan, that is a mouthful.

    That is the default because men are naturally not born into clans. Clans are man made abstractions.

    Clans are not just family names.

    Look at Chouji's clan. They have techniques that are just clan secrets. They are not bloodline limits. Why are they not sharing those techniques with the rest of the village? Wouldn't that be beneficial? As a Hokage wouldn't it be his duty to share his techniques to Ninjas who would like to learn them? Same for Shikamaru's clan and the shadow techniques.

    These are real clans and have their own government. They congolomerate in Konoha but if Konoha were to be destroyed they would fall on their own legs.

    These clans existed before Konoha. No way the Sharingan could have evolved from the Byakuugan in three generations in such quantity.
     
  12. Grrblt Banned

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    Ok, you tell me one character that is confirmed not to be born into a clan.

    Uhh... ok? I don't see your point.
     
  13. Keyser S?ze Formerly Midnight Joker

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    i believe he opposed sandaime because sandaime wanted peace while danzou wanted war. he was a war hawk no?
     
  14. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    Naruto. It has been stated over and over and over again that he was an orphan. Do I have to explain what an orphan is too? Wouldn't you find it rather odd if Kishimoto had to say everytime a character is NOT part of a clan?

    Of course you don't see the point, even though it is in bold letters.
     
  15. Keyser S?ze Formerly Midnight Joker

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    sakura. she's not part of a clan. aren't her parents "normal". meaning non-shinobi, she's the first of the family?
     
  16. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    This guy just won't believe it. He thinks every one is part of a clan because it is not stated specifically that they are not part of a clan.

    It is clear that Kishimoto mentions clan when there is a clan. Why would he spend time on declaring the folks that are NOT part of a clan? What's the logic?
     
  17. Grrblt Banned

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    Yes, I'd like to hear your definition of an orphan. Because being an orphan does not mean you were not born into a clan. Being an orphan means you have no parents. He obviously had parents at one time, and they could have borne him into their clan.

    Funny way to make a point, typing a lot of stuff without relevance after it for no good.
     
  18. CJ32X Member

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    hes an orohan but he knows his own name? someone had to tell him his name, and it is possible to be a regualr person or be clan born, there are civilians, and there are clan ninjas. you dont know where naruto comes from, family or otherwise, so you can neither defend nor support the argument using him as an example, and since everyone else is in some sort of clan, you have to assume naruto is just separated or the last of his family. rather you chould try looking at garra, temari, and kankarou for examples, same family, different abilites. or sai maybe, mostly people you cant think of a clan for is those no one knows much about.
     
  19. CJ32X Member

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    no one knows about her parents so you cant assume anything with her really, everything she learned, she learned on her own or by kakashi or tsunade
     
  20. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    Then, clearly you don't know the definition of a clan. A clan does not consist of only two parents.

    Here knock yourself out.

    Where are all the other members of Naruto's clan??

    Wow, how you can stick to this point is amazing. I'm going to stop arguing with you. You lack rationale. Or gravitas.
     
  21. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    This has turned into a rigmarole. It was not the type of exchange I was hoping for.
     
  22. Grrblt Banned

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    Naruto's parents died, why couldn't the rest have died too? It's not like only clan members have aunts and uncles; where are Naruto's aunts and uncles?

    And where are the members of Sasuke's clan? *GASP*! There aren't any! I guess he never was in a clan either.

    Oh, and by the way, I found the site you linked to be very interesting:
    Which would oppose the point you so nicely bolded earlier on:
    "Clans are not just family names."

    You do that. What I find amazing is how you can take your standpoint for a fact without any proof. I don't know what rationale or gravitas means so I can't argue with you there.
     
  23. CJ32X Member

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    nice, props
     
  24. sonokoszk Nara Crybaby

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    Such an interesting argument here,
    may I joined???

    well, as far as we know, we can say: At present, Naruto is NOT belong to any clan
    due to the fact that he does not know his parents (or at least not YET known)


    About the defination of "clan", I think there's maybe 2 different ones here
    1, just normal "clan" that anyone can be part of
    eg: My name is Sonoko Suzuki, I belong to Suzuki clan

    2, NINJA clan, which holds and passes down to its member one (few) secret ninja techniques
    Personally, I believe this is what Kishimoto-sensei means by "clan" - ichizoku in Naruto
     
  25. CJ32X Member

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    watch out for the switching in jap and english

    they flip places, so
    jap:uzumaki naruto
    eng: naruto uzumaki

    you would be part of the sonoko
     
  26. sonokoszk Nara Crybaby

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    hix, I know my family name, believe me +__________+
     
  27. saiyanjw Member

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    you realize that even if they are more mature these girls are only like 15. i kno some girls this age that got it like that but not many. sorry if this is off topic
     
  28. Chi Technical knockout

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    WTF with no clan members were hokages?
    You know who hokage is (any kage)? Strongest ninja in the village.
    1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th - all were strongest ninjas of their time. It doesn't matter if he is in the clan, or not. If person is strongest he'll become hokage. And that means that there was no clan member in history who was stronger than current Hokage.
     
  29. still waters Member

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    That's a nice and clean-cut definition, but do you really believe it would work that simply in reality? We have already seen it contradicted twice: when the Fourth was chosen over Orochimaru for ethical reasons and personality rather than actual power; and when Jiraya turned down the post in favour of Tsunade, who was his equal in renown and probably weaker at the time, since rusty. It is also by no means unimaginable, especially after the last chapter, to imagine that the elders and feudal lords may choose (or, when the elder Hokage is still alive, influence the choosing of) the new Hokage according to their own political inclinations rather than to an objective (but hardly measurable) standard such as "power".

    For this discussion, we should also differentiate between three kind of families (or clans):
    - The noble clans (according to ShounenSuki's Naruto names' origins and meanings site, 一族, ichizoku, litteraly "household" or "family", which is used to refer to the Aburame, Akimichi, Hy?ga and Uchiha, and them alone [unless one counts the Kaguya of the Hidden Mist]), organised like nearly separate political entities, and with a lot of prestige.
    -The ninja families (according, again, to ShounenSuki, 家, ke, litteraly "home" or "house", which refers to the Nara, Inuzuka, etc.) with a tradition in the ninja arts, but a lesser social standing.
    -The normal civilian families, who sometimes send one of their kids to the academy, of few of which makes it to genin, but those are exceptional.

    I see very little reasons for blocking the title of Hokage to members of the two latter types of families. (Expect perhaps for the Nara and the Yamanaka, who may be considered too close to the Akimichi).

    However, the accession of the member of a noble clan to the post of Hokage could very possibly be vetoed by the elders, the feudal lords and the heads of the other noble clans. Such an occurrence could disturb a village's internal balance of power quite dramatically. We nonetheless lack information on the matter, and I could admittedly be very wrong. I'm still pretty sure that neither clan heads nor members of the Hy?ga Branch House can be Hokage; the firsts would have to resign their clan leadership beforehand; the latter?s cursed seals would make them way too vulnerable in case of internal strife.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2005
  30. CJ32X Member

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    i agree, hokage doesnt necessarily means to be the strongest ninja, i mean hell look at orochimaru, he was gonna be the fourth til he got turned down for exeperimenting and acting wierd,
     
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