1. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice

[329] Doing it Backwards?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Serenity Silk, Oct 26, 2006.

  1. Serenity Silk

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Reputation:
    Though the obvious answer for what Naruto realized is that he needs to use a kage bunshin, I think perhaps what he just figured out is that he's been looking at the problem from the wrong angle.

    He's been trying to make a rasengan and then add wind, perhaps the solution is to create wind and then shape it into a rasengan?

    This would still make it something that's extremely difficult and will take him a long time to learn without just being the same as his answer for the original rasengan. Remember when he used kage bunshin to do it it worked first time without any special training, so if its that easy he should be doing it by the next chapter. It has to be harder.

    The hint he got from Kakashi was "don't think of what's possible or impossible -be creative". So even if this idea is wrong I think he'll definitely surprise us with how it works.
     
    Tags:
  2. Hiruma

    Messages:
    3,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2005
    Reputation:
    There's less of a linkage to Kakashi using the KB though.
     
  3. Amida0616

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Reputation:
    He will make rasengan with one clone and and add wind with a second clone.
     
  4. Serenity Silk

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Reputation:
    Kakashi was telling Naruto to throw away his ideas of what is possible and not.

    If Kakashi were telling him to use kage bunshin then Kakashi would have been able to do it let alone Naruto. And he wouldn't have been surprised that Naruto had an idea. Kakashi was just illustrating a point
     
  5. PradaBrada

    Messages:
    6,242
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    391
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Reputation:
    Good theory, it may just be the answer to the problem, but after 20 hours
    Naruto should've tried it already, at least think about.
     
  6. Rikudou

    Messages:
    7,546
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Reputation:
    So this is the idea that should have saved YONDAIME, the great prodigy, from spending all that time theorising and training just to complete the jutsu and STILL fail? :oh
    It's that simple?:huh
     
  7. DeepThought

    Messages:
    7,022
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Reputation:
    Um... Kakashi made a KB to look right while he looked left.

    He was telling Naruto to use KB.


    It is NOT metaphorical.
     
  8. Rikudou

    Messages:
    7,546
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Reputation:
    Yes it is, it is metaphorical. Looking to the left and right wasn't impossible anymore and that's the pep-talk Naruto needed.
    This is proved by the fact that Kakashi himself was wondering if Naruto had figured out something.
     
  9. MrLittle05

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Reputation:
    Naruto's idea may be something along the lines of have half of his KB do the rasengan and the other half concentrate on using wind chakra. He may be thinking that if he can concentrate on doing both at the same time, but with different copies. So when he comes together, he'll have a much better idea of how to do it combined by himself.
     
  10. Naruko Supporting Staff

    Messages:
    29,658
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    755
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006




    I actually thought it was funny what Kakashi's reaction was to Naruto going 'ah hah'. Remember way back in the original Rasengan training? Jiraiya knew Naruto was the type that needed to figure things out for himself, and that rasengan was a jutsu type you couldn't really explain to someone anyway..there aren't any special tips or tricks to it, you just have to 'get it'. But Naruto asked Jiraiya for tips and help anyway. At one point Jiraiya gets tired of him asking and bascially makes up the whole theory of focus the spin of the chakra the same way your hair-whorls on the top of your head. It's a BS reason, has no bearing on it, but it gives Naruto a new way to think about it, inspires him to keep at it, and he figures it out eventually.

    I think Kakashi did the same thing here. Part of me goes, yes a clear correlation between KB and Naruto going Ah Hah, but then you see Kakashi's reaction. He says 'He got something out of that?' I think Kakashi either figured out (or was told by Jiraiya more likely), something like 'Listen, the kid is pretty creative and clever, he just needs a lil help sometimes. Just give him something to do or something new to think about and see what he does with it.' Naruto is #1 at surprising people. I think Kakashi made a bunshin, did the point left / right thing just to see what Naruto would get from it. Naruto *Did* get something from it, but Kakashi doesn't know what it is he figured out, which leads me to believe Kakashi didn't think the KB was a 'real solution' so much as something to inspire Naruto to get creative and think something up.

    ANyway, hopefully we'll see week after next.
     
  11. Frieza

    Messages:
    3,858
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    908
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Reputation:
    Well we have a week break, but Naruto should have finished the jitsu by then.
     
  12. I Я Reckless!

    Messages:
    3,488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Reputation:
    Yea, Kakashi gave him a bullshit tip by looking left and right, but naruto got SOMETHING out of it.

    But if its to use a clone, hasnt he been using them all along?
     
  13. Fenix

    Messages:
    6,550
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Reputation:
    He's been using clones, but the clones been trying them on their own

    If it's simple as two bunshin helping eachother....then Yondy is an idiot
     
  14. rincewind

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2005
    Reputation:
    I personally think he has to somehow rotate the normal Rasengan in one direction, and the wind chakra in the opposite direction simultaneously. (Remember Jiraiya talking about which way it is natural to spin the chakra? I think Naruto should do both at the same time.)
     
  15. Ofkinheimer

    Messages:
    2,182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Reputation:
    Naruto = complains that it is hard concentrating on just doing Rasengan, let alone at the same time also concentrating on adding the wind element. I.e. Like trying to look left and right at the same time, impossible.

    Kakashi = left and right is possible, "poofs" bunshin and one looks in opposite direction than him.

    Naruto = OOOOOOOOOOOOOh!!!!

    OOOOOOOOOOh!!! = One bunshin concentrate on building rasengan, Another bunshin concentrate on adding wind element

    It isn't that deep.
     
  16. LynnAzure

    Messages:
    947
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Reputation:
    Kakashi didn't give him a hint, he was simply demonstrating that it was possible to look to the left and right at the same time. More like a pep talk then a hint
     
  17. rorykage

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Reputation:
    i don't see why the solution has to be complicated. i think it will be as simple as when he figured out rasengan. he molded and contained the chakra himself, and he had a clone strike at it to put a spin on it, and voila! rasengan.

    i agree with the OP in that kakashi's hint was to look at the technique from another angle. but also, that kage bunshin should do half the work. so naruto himself (or half of his clons) will mold and contain wind chakra, while his clone (or the other half of his clones) will put a spin on it. then the technique will work, but since so many them will happen at once, all the clones will be destroyed and naruto will be drained. seems fitting doesn't it?

    and i know some of you will say, "if it's that simple why couldn't kakashi and the 4th complete the technique?"

    well it's simple, throughout the entire story, it's been illustrated again and again that kage bunshin is suited to naruto because he is a chakra tank, and using kage bunshin is too draining and impractical for most other ninja to use effectively. even the ANBU members thought it was stupid for sandaime to use it. the frequent (and grand scale) use of kage bunshin is only practical for naruto.
     
  18. Spy_Smasher

    Messages:
    22,220
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    643
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005






    It's not as simple as using clones. With the standard Rasengan, Naruto used the KBs to jump-start the process, but the jutsu was always eventually struck one-handed and controlled/sustained one-handed. No doubt, the Windsenagn will employ a similar methodology.

    While it was not stated explicitly, it is very clear that an individual's ability in each of the types of chakra manipulation varies. That is to say, I may be very good at form manipulation but suck at elemental. No doubt that Kakashi and the Yondaime were excellent at both, but even with their high-level skills they could not, under any circumstances, add an element to the perfectly-formed Rasengan.

    Kakashi believes that Naruto has the potential to exceed the 4th and himself in this regard. Naruto has been using KBs to short-cut the learning process. He may use KBs (I think he will) to jump-start the new Windsengan. Ultimately, however, it will be Naruto's outstanding elemental manipulation ability which makes it all possible.
     
  19. rorykage

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Reputation:
    i still think it could go down the way i posted above, because while i agree with what you say here, rasengan was simplified with KB. the reason he can't form a rasengan with one hand is simply because he learned so fast and so young, he doesn't have level of training and experience necessary to form it one handed. he has the power to wield the jutsu with one hand, he just doesn't have the ability to create it one handed.
    he couldn't mold and spin the chakra alone, so kage bunshin was the answer.

    i don't see why it should be any different here. besides, this isn't as simple as it could be. kakashi and sasuke have things much easier when it comes to new jutsus. Kage Bunshin is just naruto's answer to sharingan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2006
  20. Odlam

    Messages:
    8,677
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2005
    Reputation:
    If it was as simple as using a Kage bunshin, than Kakashi would be able to do it, and so would Yondaime.

    Now Naruto's solution may wind up involving Kage bunshins, but it will be more complicated than that.
     
  21. MF NaruSimpson

    Messages:
    31,712
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2005
    Reputation:
    those who say KB is the key, then it will take 3 KB's to do his new jutsu. 2 for the rasengan, and 1 for wind. It will be crap
     
  22. yami

    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Reputation:
    I just think he is goin to get a third kagebunshin hand to add the wind manipulation. i know it isnt very creative, but kishi has been runnin out of the ideas as well.
     
  23. yami

    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Reputation:
    but isnt it possible that kakhashi would be able to do it as well if its something really easy? then wouldnt that make the jutsu not exactly specific to naruto like say hirashin was to Yondaime.
     
  24. NecroMaster

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Reputation:
    Creating a "wind" rasengan is actually as simple as turning the chakra in the rasengan into wind element chakra. The problem comes when you remember how Asuma told Naruto to make wind chakra "rub two peices of chakra together like you are sharpening them.", both maintaining the swirl of the chakra in the rasengan and rubbing that chakra against it's self are contadictory actions (hense the "looking left while looking right thing).

    So what then is the answer? One of two possibilities, you either: form two rasengans into the same space, such that the chakra from one rubs against the chakra from the other and the whole mess turns into wind chakra for you. Or you push two rasengans together (the first posibility makes more sense but the second one will likely be used, as it is much "simpler").

    Or I'm just crazy.
     
  25. Lion

    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Reputation:
    For starters, creating Rasengan takes a lot of concentration...
    Then adding "nature manipulation" to that
    is just impossible...


    I think this is one of the main problems with this thing. When Naruto does the rasengan he has to concentrate and probably do that leaf thing. Now if he wants to add nature manipulation to it he has to concentrate on that rubbing thing. I find these mutually exclusive actions and thus we get to the whole look left-right thing.

    What Kakashi shows IMO doesn't actually solve anything. I guess you could do it so that the bunshin does the rasengan and naruto does the wind manipulation, but the problem then becomes how do you fuse the two.

    The problem of two mutually exclusive actions still exists.
     
  26. Protean Stratagem

    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Reputation:
    The only concept that I think Naruto can pull out of Kakashi's little pep talk may have to do with the way KB actually works.

    Maybe he'll split the process like one splits chakra between KB.
    1/2 Wind, and 1/2 speed Rasengan?
    I'm just not sure how.
    Maybe he'll use opposing chakra forces to make the rubbing and cutting force of wind element- meaning either two opposite rotating rasengans in one, maybe crushed together or formed with one or more KB helpers.

    He'll probably need more than one hand to do the complete new jutsu anyways even if though it has little to do with KB itself.
     
  27. tanukibeast

    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Reputation:
    i like necromaster's idea. just imagine the pure power of two constantly rubbing against each other. it is also practical because it will be immensely difficult to contain the power.
     
  28. joedoebell

    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Reputation:
    Which is why so many of us thought he should divide it into steps and create the wind natured chakra first, but...

    That is a brilliant idea! If Kishi actually goes with your idea, he will have restored my faith in him as a writer. And either way, you my friend, get a rep for being so innovative with your thoughts.
     
  29. Lahickson

    Messages:
    1,151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Reputation:
    man i would laugh so hard is thats what naruto does. Its so simple its brillant. The level of consintration containing it afterwards could be on the level of his odma resangen.
     
  30. QuoNina

    Messages:
    6,754
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Reputation:
    I like Serenity Silk's idea. He would be doing two things at once eventually, which is proven to be hard. But the order might matter.

    However, I am not sure if this is the case because if this implies thinking about it in another way... I would say it's too abstract for Naruto to derive this information by looking at Kakashi's clones facing opposite direction.

    - -
    haha, that's a really great idea.
     
Loading...