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3rd Raikage and Rasa vs Old Hiruzen and Tsunade

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Orochimaruwantsyourbody, May 9, 2018.

  1. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    Featwise, it's hard to imagine old Hiruzen or Tsunade defeating AAA, even as a tag team. They clearly lack DC, reactions and defense to stand up to his speed, Nukite and extremely sturden body.
    Their only chance is to coordinate an assault upon which both Tsunade and Hiruzen touch him with their most powerful ninjutsu. Something extremely hard to accomplish giving AAA recations in RCM.
    Maybe this can be possible with a giant Katsuyu's support (her acid spitting is quite fast).
    In other hands, portrayalwise, it's unlikely that AAA can defeat these two at the same and normally, he should be overwhelmed wit ease.
    That's why I think Kishi screwed with old Kages techniques, the latters received their fighting style very late in the manga, a time in wich fighting standards were extremely high compared to P1 and also the beginning of P2. That's why, they seem stronger than the Sannin featwise, some times we even imagine them defeating some pinnackle Kage level fighters such as Minato or Tobirama whilst their portrayal doesn't suggest so.
    Overall, I think if the fight actually happened in the manga Hiruzen&Tsunade would've won even with Rasa's support (since Rasa is one of the weakest Kages in history).
     
  2. NooodleBowl Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the main fight will be hiruzen vs A3 but Sara and Tsunade are really good. Tsunade is one of the best supporting ninja in the world and Sara is one of the best Long distance ninja in the world but being in the location . A3 is hella fast but it was shown the Sage mode naruto was able to weave around him and put a rassengan into his arm. I am willing to say tho that Hiruzen or even Tsunade is as fast as SM naruto but not KCM naruto (i could be completely wrong tho). I would still say that A3 can solo this because of his body sustain. While in edo tensei -and edo tensei weakens people- he wasn't killed by Rassen shuriken at KCM naruto speed, he was only knocked out for a second. (that is how he got out of the sealing and naruto had to ask 8 tails how A3 got injured) I wouldn't say that anything that hiruzen has is as strong as a rassen shuriken, and wind release is his weakness (granted hiruzen was proficient in all 5 releases). Tsunade's strenght could catch him off guard but with Sara support I don't see her getting close to A3.
     
  3. Miserea Well-Known Member

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    If we go off of Hiruzen's wind release being enough to blow off the cloak what's stopping Rasa from intercepting it long range. Even if you don't think he can wall that the power will be greatly reduced and possibly even allow the Raikage time to dodge with his speed. As much as people think Rasa sucks he IS a Kage level and this IS a team battle he's plenty capable of contributing. it's not uncommon at all in Naruto for lower tier characters to make a difference in teams against ones stronger than themselves. If they try to take him out to get rid of his interference that also leaves them open to the Raikage's assault.
     
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  4. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Probably not, but they might not allow his clone to kill them with their own attack.

    :mitsukisip
     
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  5. Alita54 Alita>You

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    Can't tell if your joking or serious here.
     
  6. InfiniteHiraishin Lil B's Ghostwriter

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    My own personal ranking:
    I have Tsunade > Old Hiruzen ~ Rasa

    I have Sannin over their sensei out of his prime, and both Hiruzen and Rasa took Ls to Orochimaru, however Hiruzen seemingly gave Orochimaru the most difficulty with a long fight (along with two Imperfect Edo Hokages) and kept a close match till the end when he had to pull out RDS.

    The main question here is how will they deal with A3. I’m not too well-versed with the Third Raikage, but I know his high regard in the NBD because of the difficulty of bringing him down: insane speed, strength, and durability combined. He showed great feats against SM and KCM1 Naruto, so I’m going to come back to this after I reread those chapters and see if there’s a specific way Hiruzen or Tsunade can breach his defenses.
     
  7. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    Does anybody seriously think the most ninjutsuy of ninjutsu Hokage who learned all of the ninjutsus and got his hands praised by two other kage and Orochimaru is slower at the ninjutsu things than Dodai?

    I mean you will now that I said that to disagree with me, but in real life land where you're just being a real person and not trying to win at stuff and be righter than me.

    Like, if your little brother got into Naruto because you're a bad sibling and didn't stop them asked you, "Who's faster with ninjutsu, The Hokage or this uncle rubber guy who was in that one chapter?" I feel like everyone would say, "The Hokage, duh," and then tell him to stop.
     
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  8. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    Why is this thing still going on?
     
  9. Shark Ikimasu yo

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    Hiruzen activated Prime no Jutsu and utilized FRS thinking the Futon would upset the Raiton. When that didn't work, he activated SM and soloed the Raikage Naruto-style.

    Tsunade defeated Rasa by mentioning to him that she is a Sannin (i.e she used Sannin no Jutsu) just like Orochimaru and thus she is also > him. Rasa succumbed to the injuries inflicted by her canon statement.
     
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  10. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    So sad tapping into Primeforce as well as using Time Travel Technique is prohibited... People need to be reminded of that.
    Must be a really exhausting jutsu.
     
  11. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    Rasa's actually just bad.

    It was heavily implied he became kage because he could use his jutsu to pay the electric bill, and then his gold had to hard counter the weakest of the bijuu by being innately heavier for him to serve a purpose in suppressing it. It was implied that he struggled to do that much, unlike every other kage who beat up their much stronger bijuus.

    Hiruzen past his prime pushed the full kyuubi outside the village.
    Minato beat it.
    Hashirama beat it with a dragon his mokumecha wore as a hat while the moku mecha was a bigger hat for his bhudda.
    The Gin/Kin bros assaulted Tobirama and some Raikage with the kyuubi somehow (that doesn't really make sense but something like that happened?)

    Some Mizukage had full control over his bijuu.

    Sandaime Raikage 1v1'd the 8 tails.
    Regular Raikage chopped his horn off while suppressing him.

    Previous Kazekages defeated and sealed the 1 tails for a long time, including 3rd Kazekage who was actually pretty kewl and respected for being strong and being the only non-sucky Suna nin outside Chiyo and her bro and I guess that one dry girl who was revived as an edo. Maybe Baki, who mysteriously stopped existing after part 1.

    Tsuchikages only got a backstory of polishing rocks, but they had jinton and stuff and old dude beat a bunch of Susano's with a supplemental technique.

    When Kabuto tried to pep talk Orochimaru, he's like, "Hey, you killed two of the 5 kages! That's something."

    Then Oro's like, "Yeah, but one of them was Sand."

    "Okay that's fair, but Hiruzen was good!"

    Nobody respects this man. Not even his kids. Who didn't even seem to care that he died. And his dying speech was apologizing for how bad he was at everything. Like, think about it. He was replaced by a 13-14 year old and everyone was happy they had a good kazekage again, that they could be proud of. :ike the Third one they had. That's so bad. His best plan to put them back on the map was sealing a bijuu inside his son, killing his wife, declaring war, and teaming up with a sociopathic outlaw and his fresh new ninja-start-up because they had more power in Oro and his fodder than Suna could train in a decade.

    Like. He's just bad.

    And I need everyone understands how garbo he is.
     
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  12. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    together with many other shinobi
    ftfy
    didn't this also happen in manga?
     
  13. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow Sanbantai taicho Ichimaru Gin

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    Poland
    Rasa and A3 wins. A3 is almost untouchable with his armor, so he can survive most of Hiruzen's attacks. Tsunade can't also hit him and Rasa so easily, because one is long range fighter and the other has abnormal speed. I thinkt that at some point Raikage would catch Hiruzen off guard. Later they will kill Tsunade. Suna/Kumo duo mid diffs.
     
  14. Miserea Well-Known Member

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    Half of this is taken out of context and largely irrelevant to the match up. A good chunk is also just about him being a shit person/dad which has no bearing on how he'd perform in a fight (Tho I agree there). Being inferior to war arc Gaara hardly means he's not Kage level and Gyuki also outright stated that the number of tails does not indicate a Bijuu's power standing vs the other ones. Kurama just happens to be stronger than the others. I don't recall Orochimaru actually saying that either. Plus they ambushed him when they should've been allies.

    Anyway it's not really being disputed that Rasa can stand up to either Tsunade or Hiruzen on his own. The point here is that he's still been shown to use his Jutsu competently, and it's incredible useful+versatile as a support technique. So when paired with a devastating frontal fighter like the Third Raikage, it's an extremely hard to deal with formation.
     
  15. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    Being a terrible dad is an extension of being terrible at everything. Being terrible at everything extends to being terrible in a fight. His, "strength," as a kage was being a little conniving and smart, and specialized. But his attempts at being conniving and smart were what killed him and got all those around him in trouble. Both as a kage, as a father, and as a fighter.

    Like what killed him in his fight was doing something kinda smart and then having it backfire a little later spectacularly. Just like, I dunno, allying with Oro got him killed and almost destroyed Suna, and putting a bijuu in his son created a monster.

    "together with many other shinobi"

    All the other kage had sealing teams. You didn't caveat that when Ei chopped of the horn there were other shinobi helping him in the fight. What's up with that?

    Either it's assumed for everyone because we're taking it for granted we all looked at the scribbles, or it's assumed for none of them and you should fix all of it.

    "didn't this also happen in manga?"

    He existed in the council room at the start of part 2, and then maybe at the end when Gaara un-died. But then he stopped. If you can find manga pictures of him past the Suna arc, go for it. I didn't see them.

    "I don't recall Orochimaru actually saying that either."

    It's when Kabuto is trying to cheer up Oro when they're waiting for Kimi to come back with Sasuke. Kabuto praises him for killing two kage, and then tells him the Hokage was the strongest of them all, and Oro dismisses it.

    "Plus they ambushed him when they should've been allies."

    Hey you know who else got ambushed by his "ally," and then was not unceremoniously dumped on the side of the road with no signs of struggle? Hiruzen.

    "Being inferior to war arc Gaara hardly means he's not Kage level and Gyuki also outright stated that the number of tails does not indicate a Bijuu's power standing vs the other ones."

    He was inferior to start of part 2 Gaara. The youngest and least experienced of the kage. He is the Sakura of kage, if Sakura wasn't even trained by a Sannin. The Part I Sakura of kage.

    "The point here is that he's still been shown to use his Jutsu competently"

    I contest this point.
     
  16. Miserea Well-Known Member

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    Not...really...considering you DO need a certain level of battle competence to be a Kage. Especially for a village with reclining military power. A weak leader is like an invitation to be invaded. Hiruzen also made a lot of concerning and negligent decisions as Kage, but how does that influence his fighting ability at all? Rasa was far from the best and def no higher than low kage but that doesn't mean he's useless in a team fight. Unless you're going to try and argue he's less than chuunin level.

    I went back and checked over several points as well and there was no indication that he became Kazekage solely bc of his gold manipulation either but that it was one of the things they suggested they could use to keep things going along with his development of new techniques already during his term.

    You're gonna have to get a scan for this part bc I skimmed around the Sasuke rescue arc and none of the Orochimaru+Kabuto conversations mentioned Rasa so I'd appreciate that. The one's I did see had them commenting that if Kimimaro had been with them the assassination of the Third Hokage would've gone smoothly but not otherwise. Which is of note in the anime that Kimimaro was with the two of them during the ambush on Rasa. However I don't think they showed it in the manga so I get if that doesn't hold weight. However it is stated that Kabuto was assisting him by Sasori's admission when Chiyo accused him of being involved with 3 incidents regarding their Kages. Kabuto we know is comparable to Kakashi.

    BOS Gaara was also able to match Deidara and a Jinchuuriki so I'm not sure how that changes Rasa being Low Kage. Which goes with my point anyway, Gaara taking care of him was a matter of Gaara being superior but that doesn't make Rasa a "weakling". He's been shown capable of making large Tsunamis, taking apart Gaara's desert hands that had caught all 3 of the grounded Kage, and throwing up defensive shields. That's plenty to show he can support effectively and throw up interference. When he was caught by Karura as well he basically just gave up there instead of doing what he did earlier to get out bc he realized he was wrong. While the others had also been caught by it to show it was fast enough to catch Kage levels in the first place.
     
  17. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    Not...really...considering you DO need a certain level of battle competence to be a Kage. Especially for a village with reclining military power. A weak leader is like an invitation to be invaded.

    By Sand standards.

    You do understand that Suna was preparing for an invasion because they were worried they would collapse and be taken over if they didn't strike first.

    If you think about it, they sandbagged to hold back a team of genin to look strong during the competition. Three of the Kazekage's children. Temari was held back for two years to put on a team, and Kamkurou one year. Temari inherited the wind jutsu of wind village, and Kankurou was groomed to inherit Sasori's puppets and poisons, and the wealth of puppeteering jutsu left by Chiyo and her grandson. The last one was a jinchuuriki. They put all of their resources in this genin basket. No other Suna nin passed, and everyone they sent was obliterated by Konoha. Then when Deidara came, literally no one but Gaara could do anything to fight or detect him. (Temari probably could have, but she was gone)

    They feared a repeat of what happened when 3KK was kidnapped. Which was everyone going out and being useless. They've been weak forever, and have (I think?) the hands down weakest rating as a village in the databook.

    Contrast Deidara's trolling to Konoha getting the 6 Paths invasion, where each body met hell from Chunin and Jonin.

    "I went back and checked over several points as well and there was no indication that he became Kazekage solely bc of his gold manipulation either but that it was one of the things they suggested they could use to keep things going along with his development of new techniques already during his term."

    Yeah. He's keeping Suna's economy afloat with gold inflation. He's kinda smart-ish, and he's got the Economic Stimulus Jutsu, and he's the strongest active ninja in Suna, with a jutsu that can kinda counter the One Tails avalanche them. That's pretty much why he's kage. I mean, he can beat Zabuza, and he can go 6-4 with P1 Kakashi, who are the benchmark of pre-kage power, so he's kage level. But if we're being real, that's not impressive in the grand scheme of kage.

    "You're gonna have to get a scan for this part bc I skimmed around the Sasuke rescue arc and none of the Orochimaru+Kabuto conversations mentioned Rasa so I'd appreciate that."

    I appreciate you asking but I'm not doing that. However in deference to your kindness and open-mindedness, I will not scold you for not reading and memorizing the entire manga. Part of this is that I don't know where to get scans anymore, and part of this is that I promised I would cut off my hands before I ever bothered looking through the Naruto manga again. Please understand.

    I'm working with handicaps.

    "Which is of note in the anime that Kimimaro was with the two of them during the ambush on Rasa. However I don't think they showed it in the manga so I get if that doesn't hold weight."

    He actually got killed with a kunai in the anime, if that tells you anything about he his portrayal came across to the anime team.

    "He's been shown capable of making large Tsunamis, taking apart Gaara's desert hands that had caught all 3 of the grounded Kage, and throwing up defensive shields. That's plenty to show he can support effectively and throw up interference. When he was caught by Karura as well he basically just gave up there instead of doing what he did earlier to get out bc he realized he was wrong. While the others had also been caught by it to show it was fast enough to catch Kage levels in the first place."

    No, the other kage got caught because Rasa said, "Leave the sand to me." Then they're like, "wtf rasa u said u had this." And he's like, "My bad lol i suk."

    Edo's have to escape and attack automatically. Realizing he was wrong doesn't mean anything iirc. If he couldn't do anything it's because he's bad. Unless edos could still be hugged and sunshined into the afterlife at that stage.
     
  18. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    I, for one, welcome Kamkurou into the cornucopia of cast and characters.
     
  19. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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  20. Miserea Well-Known Member

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    Even if it's your last post I'm going to respond, because it's fun to discuss.

    Yeah the sand was under hard times and probably hasn't fully built itself back up until Boruto. All this is referring to the military might of the village though. Rasa's own capabilities are a separate matter as naturally they won't stack up when other villages also have a Kage in addition to their high quantity of good ninja. On an individual basis though, he's competent, and in fact as you highlighted, carried the village with his abilities.

    To clarify, I already agreed he's not particularily impressive among kage levels. What I've been arguing is that sue to how his moveset interacts in this match up, he can provide relevant support even if he can't beat any of the other fighters here individually.

    It's fine if you're not interested in finding the scans then, I just can't take your word for it that the conversation went that way when I looked myself and only found a similar one that suggested something different.

    The Edo tensei's reactions are automatic as you said. Their bodies would react to dodge anything they can dodge. They weren't engaged in battle but it should still be the bodies natural reactions.

    Anyway I still feel like Rasa should be able to hinder Tsunade and Hiruzen in a number of ways such as tripping up their footholds, walling/dulling the power of the large moves like Tsunade amping his fuuton, and generally breaking line of sight. All this is extremely beneficial for the third Raikage who already has a speed advantage against them and a ridiculous amount of durability. I just don't see this combination breaking through that kind of formation.
     
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