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A few interesting observations.

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Sypher, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. Sypher Red Dawn

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    A few interesting observations. *New observation(10/16)*

    Haven't really had a lot to do the last couple of days, so I decided since there were quite a few chapters released at this point, I'd go back and read them in sequential order, just to see if I pick up on anything I missed the first time.

    I decided to post a few pages of things I found interesting, not really theories or anything, just things to consider.

    I've seen several people suggest that Sasori was Orochimaru's partner in Akatsuki before Orochimaru left the organization. Most likely due to the page where Orochimaru is talking with Yamato on the bridge. Shown here...



    There is also another page where Kabuto mentions Sasori always wanting to kill Orochimaru himself, but I don't feel inclined to post it.

    However, in the page I'm about to show you, in a conversation between Jiraya and Kakashi, Jiraya states that Akatsuki formed into 2 man teams at the same time Orochimaru left the organization, meaning Orochimaru was never in a team himself, or if he was, he certainly didn't have any time to go on a mission with Sasori before he left. Shown here...



    My guess is that Orochimaru simply knew Sasori from Akatsuki, but they were never a team together, unless it's blatantly stated somewhere I missed. Everyone in Akatsuki hated Orochimaru after he left, but given that none of the other Akatsuki had subordinants with dialogues such as Kabuto, and we aren't let in on the Akatsuki meetings, that is simply the reason why it seems like Sasori hates Orochimaru more than the others. I'm sure they'd all love to be the one to get to kill him.

    I found this next page rather interesting. It's the dialogue between Itachi and Kisame concerning Jiraya's strength...



    What's interesting is what Kisame says though, about his strength and Itachi's. When referencing Itachi's strength, he states the "first(strongest) of the Leaf," which means Itachi is/was the strongest person in Konoha, that much is obvious. However, this is the interesting part. When referencing his own strength, he states "one of the Mist's seven strongest" by seven strongest he obviously means the "Seven Swordsmen of the Mist" however, he did not say the strongest, he simply said one of the strongest. Meaning that there is a possibility that one of the swordsmen, or more, are even more powerful than Kisame. How mind boggling would that be, given what we've seen Kisame be capable of so far.

    This last page seen here...



    Is the dialogue after Orochimaru lost use of his arms due to Sandaime's jutsu. He states that if he had Itachi, he wouldn't have had a problem, but that it was a dream because Itachi is even more powerful than he is. He then goes on to say that Itachi being more powerful than him, is the reason he left Akatsuki. Now, given that's a very generalized statement we can only make assumptions as to why he would leave simply because Itachi was stronger than him. Perhaps he had plans to take over Itachi's body, and Itachi found out, causing him to withdraw from the organization in fear of Itachi. Or perhaps Orochimaru simply doesn't like to be around other ninja that have the potential to kill him should they feel so inclined.

    Given Orochimaru's whole fanatisism concerning immortality, I'm inclined to lean more towards the latter. Which then brings about the question, up until Itachi joined the organization was Orochimaru the strongest member of the organization? If he left because Itachi was more powerful than him, why wouldn't he have left before Itachi joined, if any of the other members were more powerful than him? It leads me to believe that until Itachi joined, Orochimaru was the most powerful member of the organization, at least in his own eyes, with the possible exception of the leader. But then again, the leader of an organization doesn't necessarily have to be its most powerful member.

    Anyways, like I said, these aren't theories, just random observations, a lot of them could be completely untrue, but just things that the manga seemed to be hinting at, that I picked up on. Take it for what you will.

    EDIT: Post #31 has something else I noticed. (10/16/06)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2006
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  2. Futagokage Runaway Kage

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    I love theories so well constructed that look like facts.

    Interesting one.
     
  3. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    that and before that in the save Gaara arc... Sasori said so.. >_>, where he said him and oro did many things together and were partners

    thats just a wrong translation... go to mangahelpers.com for the correct translation

    maybe so, but yea its more likly he wanted itachi's body simply cause of the bloodline, since durning the chuunin he sees kakashi and makes his statement in regards of the sharingan
     
  4. Grrblt Banned

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    Second image link is broken and my own manga source ([Kiss-Kyuu]​_Muteki​_Kanban​_Musume​_[complete]) does not claim they broke into teams after Oro left. I would appreciate it if you could fix that image.
     
  5. Naruko Supporting Staff

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    All your spoiler buttons hide their images so well that I don'tget any images at all ><
     
  6. Sypher Red Dawn

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    It's entirely possible my translation is just wrong, leading to incorrect conclusions, but here's the page I was reading from.

    [m.3.3.w]​_LoveGetChu!​_-​_04​_[H.264+Vorbis][C83BBA09].mkv
     
  7. Grrblt Banned

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    That image still does not load for me. Try uploading it again.
     
  8. fungus Member

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    that was a real good read. Excellent observations btw, a lot of stuff i didnt pick up on.


     
  9. darrellfjohnson What?

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    Very good observations. It would be crazy if Orochimaru is the second strongest person in the show (behind Itachi) but I seriously doubt it. Because then you would think that Jiraya and Tsunade would be able to own Akatsuki pretty easily.
     
  10. Shisui is dead

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    In , Sasori: "Sure, Orochimaru and I were originally partnered together in Akatsuki, so we did various things"

    Jiraiya's line about them splitting into pairs after Orochimaru left might be a mistranslation, or it might just be that Kishimoto changed his mind on some of the details. Jiraiya also said the Akatsuki is made up of 9 shinobi, which we know is false.
     
  11. Captain Gir Spiral Warrior

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    i like yer idea...sasori was orochimarus parter, (wikipedia has yet to fail me) but grrblt...y do u have to be an ass about the words of a picture, WAY to many people translate mangas and just because they interpret it a way that is different than another person "I would appreciate it if you would fix that image" and i actually hate yer image most...the only thing i would change on the starters image is the last panel [jiraiya/kakashi convo]
     
  12. Sypher Red Dawn

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    Yeah I saw that later, once I got to that part. My mistake on that point. Still I don't see how they could have had much time to do anything together.
     
  13. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    orochimaru was gone from konaha for many years and so was sasori from the sand. For all we know they been a team since the days sasori puppetized the 3rd kazekage
     
  14. Chi Technical knockout

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    When Jiraya said that, Akatsuki actually consisted of 9 shinobi, since Orochimaru left the organization and took the ring, so they couldn't replace him..
     
  15. Grrblt Banned

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    I'm an ass about it? I'm saying I would like to see his picture. I know that many people translate the manga, I also know that the chapters around 143 have had some *very* bad translations. I'm not saying he's wrong at all; I'm saying I would like to see his translation because, as mentioned, the translation I have doesn't say the same thing.
     
  16. Chi Technical knockout

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    From Naruto Manga Returns msn group..
     
  17. FrostXian Messiah With An Attitude

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    Wow, I missed a point there, too. Look at the first picture, apperantly Sasori caused Orochimaru to meet with Kabuto, I've always thought that Orochimaru himself found Kabuto.
     
  18. Shisui is dead

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    I'm with Grrblt on the translation issue. If I remember, in the anime they subbed the line as "Recently, they split into teams of 2," so we have three different versions of the same line. I dunno what translations NMR uses - are they the most trustworthy?

    Yeah, I guess you're right. I didn't really think about that ;)
     
  19. Sypher Red Dawn

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    This work Grrblt?



    i put the large img in spoiler tags to avoid long page -Grrblt
     
  20. Ofkinheimer Active Member

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    Didn't want to start a new thread as it is an oft discussed item in general but I am still a bit puzzled by even thought it will likely take future chapters to resolve. Just interested in seeing some opinions.

    1. Anybody have any thoughts on why Kyuubi told Naruto that he was "like" Yondaime? This was directly after he told Naruto that he was "weak". Does that mean he considered Yondaime to be weak as well (Ironic that a "weak" Yondy would defeat him)?

    Or do you think he had direct knowledge of Yondaime, excluding the time of their scuffle which led to his sealing?

    Kyuubi's reference of Naruto/Yondi was weird because in the case of Sasake, Kyuubi specifically identified an object (cursed chakra) that was similar between Sasake/Madara. But him Yondy reference was different, indicating that he was knowledgable about his general skillset or his general character.


    2. Second is more of an observation but in the same battle at VOTE, we saw that the Kyuubi chakra moved on its own (Sasake's commentary) so Sasake could not predict both the movements of the chakra and Naruto's hand. I.e. Naruto had miss, Chakra formed hand to attack at same time. This indicates that chakra is similar to Gaara's that it had a will of its own in protecting Naruto/Attacking Foes. I'm interpreting this to mean that excluding the just raw usage of power when he transform, Naruto has yet to explore the basic other advantages Kyuubi chakra has in general. This really leads me to believe that there wasn't much training done with Kyuubi chakra during the timeskip, or that the training only revolved around how to pull up raw chakra, etc.
     
  21. Grrblt Banned

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    Yes, I see it now and it does indeed read what you've said. But, as we've had a few different translations, I went ahead and asked njt about it in any case. If he confirms the translation about them splitting to pairs after Oro's defection, then it would make sense that Sasori and Orochimaru were partners but not Partners. They travelled together because they had similar interests or stuff like that, not because they were an official team on official business. That's what I think.
     
  22. Sypher Red Dawn

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    That would make sense. Similar interests, perhaps they studdied together, and when Orochimaru left the organization, he obviously took everything he learned from Sasori with him. I suppose it's highly plausible that Sasori felt betrayed in a sense.
     
  23. kaizuki Ping Pong

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    interesting thread. i have to disagree with the jiraiya,itachi,kisame part. how i percieved it was, that kisame was saying jiraiya is the strongest in the leaf and stronger than the strongest of the seven swordsmen of the mist.
     
  24. Shinnou Genkaku It must be true if I say it

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    I read it as Kisame saying the strongest in the leaf was the hokage and he was saying the Hokage's strentgh was comparable to the seven swordsman. Which is lunacy, but thats how it looked it u read it. Technically Zabuza was supposed to be around Kakashi, and when the manga first started before Akatsuki showed up Kakashi was believed to be Hokage level, so we can see where Kishi's dumbass went around thinking that the seven swordsman should be some badasses. Now theres not even enough time left in part two to show the rest of them. AWW WELL.
     
  25. Sypher Red Dawn

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    That wouldn't even make sense.

    Kisame says, "That guy might even be a match for the first of the leaf, and one of the Mist's seven strongest."

    "That guy" that he is referencing is Jiraya. That's like saying Jiraya might be a match for Jiraya.
     
  26. Sypher Red Dawn

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    Once again, that wouldn't make sense. He distinctly says "that guy" which is Jiraya, the whole conversation is about Jiraya. There wouldn't be any sense in comparing Jiraya to the hokage, who is dead anyways, at this point in the story. Nor would there be any sense in comparing Jiraya to one of the seven swordsmen other than Kisame, seeing as Zabuza is dead, and he's the only other swordsman we know of.

    Kisame is definately comparing Jiraya to Itachi and himself.
     
  27. Malumultimus Sloth Incarnate

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    I've believed all along that Orochimaru and Sasori weren't partners, but whenever I said it, people flamed me and tried to show me the page, where Sasori says he was partners with Orochimaru. Yeah, Sasori is also partners with Deidara...and Itachi...and Kisame...and Hidan...and Kakuzu...and *keeps going*

    But people brashly took it for what they believed it was, and everyone accepted it without using that thing in their skull...what's it called?
     
  28. Grrblt Banned

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    I don't know why you're acting so cool and stuff, when you were wrong and Sasori and Oro WERE partners.
     
  29. The Pink Ninja Infamous Cocksucker

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    1) They may have been in teams before but Jiraiya just didn't know. Until then Akatsuki may not have been actively going around collecting Bijuu and other such things. They could have been stealthy enough to fly under Jiraiya's radar.

    2) He probably means the Mizu Kage. Also in the original Japanese Kisame talks very politely so he would be modest about himself.

    3) The AL and Itachi are probably the only ones stronger than Orochimaru.

    But the AL didn't intend to kill him so Oro didn't feel threatened. Itachi probably did, thus Snake Lover left.
     
  30. dregoth Cooking Genius

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    Interesting remarks. Actually the one concerning Sasori and Kabuto leads me to believe that Oro developed a very badass Kinjutsu in timeskip.

    He didn't have Kabuto around to help him with the subjects until the end of chuunin prelims, so either he was refering to Edo Tensei or another Kinjutsu in tht dialogue.
     
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