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After Madara's speech, who is stronger? Pein or Itachi?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Shinigami Perv, May 23, 2008.

:yell

  1. Itachi

    108 vote(s)
    35.1%
  2. Pein

    185 vote(s)
    60.1%
  3. Need more information before I can decide.

    15 vote(s)
    4.9%
  1. copycat123 Banned

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    Sure uchihas should be compared to uchihas only. Once they come outside their circle, they get mega spanked, Madara Vs. Shodai as the shining example :laugh:laugh:laugh

    The only thing Madara is doing is playing another Hidan for 100 years(because I know the next argument is that Madara is alive and Shodai is dead...even though Hidan showed living is not winning) trying to reclaim some lost prestige. :laugh:laugh


    As for who is stronger between Madara and Itachi! Could care less. Any powerful non-uchiha worth mentioning would beat the living daylights out of them with the exception of Oro unfortunately (who enjoys getting the living daylights beaten out of him by uchihas). Maybe I went a bit too much! :p :amuse
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  2. Chaos Hokage Hokage of the Distant Future

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    Even after Madara's fake-ass speech, I still consider Pein stronger than Itachi. Itachi doesn't stand a chance against Pein, who wields the Rinnegan which can either save or destroy the world.
     
  3. dregoth Cooking Genius

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    Pein said to Zetsu that if he hasn't used some kind of trick he would've lost to Jiraiya, probably related to the fact that he didn't use all bodies at once.

    His main advantage is that almost no one knows how many bodies he has, so he can just pretend to be dead while Susanoo wears off, but if he goes all out from the start he would probably lose.

    I think Itachi is stronger than Pein's strongest body, but if he can revive himself as long as he has a single one he's kind of unbeatable.
     
  4. Nashima Ishingo

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    A lot of people are abusing the pain said if j-man knew his secret he would have won line. Pain is basically saying, if j-man knew his weakness he would have won. Well of course if you cant beat someone because they are stronger then you find their weakness and you'll change the fight.

    But id say pain would win hands down. Itachi is a strong fucker no doubt about that, he would also give pain a nice fight. But he wears out way to fast to go against pain. And just because pain hasn't sown anything that can top susano does it mean he has nothing that can top it T_T? I mean seriously its BS to say he cant win because he hasn't shown anything to counter susano. Your talking about the guy who most likely made the statue to seal bijuus.
     
  5. Bonds Bang

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    People picking Pein are presuming just as much if not more than those picking Itachi. So I'm not sure how one is more annoying than another.

    And it's kind of ridiculous that people are saying "we never saw Pein fight to his fullest" when the SAME EXACT thing applies to Itachi. And for all we know, which we don't mind you, Pein HAS fought to his fullest. But like I said, we don't know that. It's my personal opinion they will end up as equals or close enough to it that this topic will only be prominent inside the battledome.
     
  6. geminis Active Member

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    I say Pein and Itachi are on equal grounds. Madara only being stronger.

    The tier has again shifted I bet it's gonna be like this

    Rikudou Sennin
    Hashirama
    Madara
    Itachi/Minato/Nagato(Pein)

    Then the rest are speculation.
     
  7. Dark Saint サスケ

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    For now Itachi hands down but that may change when we see Pein go all out.
     
  8. Rated R Superstar Say Hello to the BadGuy!!!

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    I wouldn't go that far. Itachi could probably give Pain a run for his money. He'd probably be a match for Pain, based on what we've seen thus far.
     
  9. copycat123 Banned

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    I think there is a bit of a difference. When I think of "Pein hasn't fought to his fullest" I am thinking that Pein has more new jutsus to reveal. Otherwise there isn't any point in keeping him around to fight the main protagonist. Heck, in fact J-man said Pein could use six elements, his eyes has some uber hax ability and it has the power to save or destroy on a massive scale. NONE of that is yet explained in a proper fight.

    Heck even Deidara who from a plot perspective had no more contribution showed C4 (one of the best jutsus upto date) and the suicide jutsu - totally new moves.


    As for Itachi, to me, his "fullest" currently implies more stamina, speed and strength but no new jutsus. So a 100% Itachi to me currently may sustain Tsukuyomi, amaterasu or susano for much longer but that's about it.

    In that respect Itachi has gone all out and Pein hasn't.
     
  10. Bonds Bang

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    But that's assuming Pein is Nagato. My point is, everyone is making assumptions here. People are expecting Pein to show more than what he has, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he will. And even if he does, it doesn't mean it's going to surpass anything Itachi's shown. There's no right answer here. Just two wrong ones until we see more.
     
  11. Specter Von Baren A Ghost In The Machine

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    Couldn't a logical person just run away and stay out of range when Itachi uses Susano and then wait until he dies? It sounds really simple, and if Itachi stops using Susano he wouldn't have enough chakra to start it again and he would still probably die...

    Note: Posted before reading the entire thread.
     
  12. copycat123 Banned

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    Ok, I see what you mean. Yes, when I think of the 100% Pein, I am assuming that Nagato's abilities (as narrated by Jiraya) will be included.

    :amuse
     
  13. Nashima Ishingo

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    Pain is nagato O_O. Nagato just calls himself pain because of his childhood. Those 6 bodies are just like his puppets and we have yet to see the original. But of course we are going to see something that will surpass something itachi has shown. The most powerful eyes not showing something that can surpass that of a next eye that is weaker than it?
     
  14. Bonds Bang

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    We have good reason to believe Pein isn't Nagato. Jiraiya spent like 3 or 4 chapters contemplating on who he was after deciding that he must not be Nagato. If his revelation at the end was that he IS Nagato, than that was really waste. I admit it's possible but that's reason enough for me to doubt it. The rest of your post is exactly what I pointed out before, just baseless assumptions.
     
  15. sasutachi Well-Known Member

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    a genius uchiha with will of fire>all
    yo will see that itachi's plan prepare madara and akatsuki's end.
     
  16. Specter Von Baren A Ghost In The Machine

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    You neglect to mention that Jiraiya was considering Dein to be Nagato before his revelation that it was someone else entirely.

    Basically Jiraiya didn't know whether Nagato had changed his appearance to look like his Summon body Dein until he figured out who Dein actually was. AND he couldn't figure out how all these people had the Rinnegan.

    We, the readers already knew this simply because we have more information than Jiraiya and are viewing this story from the outside, it's a big revelation for Jiraiya if he was just realizing that Pein was using multiple bodies and it not being six different people working together.

    We already saw it as one mind with six bodies, but Jiraiya was seeing it as six minds, with six bodies, with shared vision.

    Basically, your statement is bunk

    Moving on... :zaru
     
  17. koopo Hunter

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    As an Itachi-fan I'll argue like this.

    Itachi may well be stronger, I could also argue Jirayia was stronger than Pein. But it does not matter, to beat him you need to know his secret otherwise you'll lose!

    It's a bit boring in my eyes since we knows Peins fate; Naruto is going to figure it out, beat him, have a speech about friendship and then Pein dies.

    So yeah.
    Pein > anyone who does not know his secret.

    Mandara I assume does know it.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  18. TheBrain Who killed the Dinasaurs?I DID

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    I am going to go with Pain, just because he has to have some awesome stuff saved for when Naruto Fights him and we have this epic Child of destiny vs another Child of destiny. Plus his Eye technique must have some secrets to it that have too be awesome.
     
  19. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    Eh? He's right about the Nagato comment. It's likely that Nagato's on the offsides using a somewhat similar Shoten no Jutsu to control the Peins like a puppet. It also makes the shared vision situation a reality as all the Peins are security cameras and Nagato's in the mantrap looking at the tvs.

    Judging on the Pein battle it really seems as though he is Nagato. He asked about Yahiko and he states he remembers someone of that name and he's dead (when he's using Yahiko's body). Then Jiraiya (referring him to Nagato previously) asked what happened to him and he said everyone's pain helped him grow up. He even called Jiraiya sensei. What makes him Pein is simply based upon the fact he would only know things Nagato would know. To add onto the Yahiko point he states "You can still see Yahiko in me, he's still dead".
    Spoiler:


    Spoiler:


    Basically to Jiraiya's knowledge you have Nagato's memories with Nagato's Rinnegan, now you have his former student and these people who he's fought in the past all calling themselves as Pein. To add onto that Nagato didn't deny he wasn't Nagato, he said he's now Pein and he's grow up in relation to a conversation he had with Jiraiya of the past. It's Nagato. It's obvious it's Nagato in some shape or form. Konan is there. Yahiko's body is being used while the real Yahiko is dead and Nagato (the one who holds the Rinnegan) is likely on the offsides playing puppet master. What threw him off was the idea of 6 people having the Rinnegan.

    Pein's identity is surely Nagato but that's not what Jiraiya was thinking in the middle. What he figured out is simply that Pein's basically Nagato somehow using others bodies through the Rinnegan. His identity is physically a shell so to say.

    So yes it's fair to say he's truly Nagato but rather how he can use 6 bodies and have 6 bodies use the Rinnegan is undisclosed as of this moment.

    Anything's possible though but as of right now it leads towards one side.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  20. Nashima Ishingo

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    He already knew pain=nagato, he was just figuring out which body was the actual nagato because none of them looked like the nagato he knew and they all had rinnegan. And how is the rest of my post baseless assumptions? Saying that the person who has the strongest eyes will show us more is baseless? Thats like watching a movie preview and saying were not going to see anymore of the movie. Everybody should know pain will show us MUCH more. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg with pain/nagato.
     
  21. vagnard Well-Known Member

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    Why this chapter should change anything?. I think we can get a full idea of Itachi's attacks after his fight against Sasuke.

    Pain is obviously stronger than Itachi. He is a benchmark of the protagonist, he showed better feats and doesn't just rely in 3 strong techniques that destroy his eyes.
     
  22. Cardboard Jewsuke Draffut

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    Excellent point. Even if Itachi was held back by disease or whatever, He did show us his 3 most powerful jutsu. Maybe without the disease he would have been able to do things like dodge the Kunai's better, or use more Bushins or something, but his overall battle prowess has not changed since we saw him fight really.

    Yes Susanoo is broke. We all understand this. But every jutsu can be beaten, this one included. If only an Uchiha can beat Itachi, I ask what Uchiha specific power would allow them to beat Susanoo. Nothing I can see.

    So if nothing Uchiha specific trumps Susanoo, but an Uchiha can beat Itachi. This logically shows that there is a counter for Susanoo possible for top end fighters. We just obviously didn't see it long enough to figure it out. (Probobly something simple like "step away until he runs out of Chakra and goes blind")
     
  23. Nedeti SENIOR MEMBER

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    Exactly!

    I'll go with Pein, with mere brute force he defeated a top tier fighter Jiraiya.
    Itachi is great but that strength is also his weakness. MS jutsu takes too much chakra/stamina and it is also a double edge sword, hurting the user himself with Blindness.

    So ill break it down this way, my simulation of Itachi vs Fuuma clan Pein.

    Itachi's jutsus includes Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano.

    Fuuma clan Pein displayed that he can spam summons without breaking a sweat.

    His summoning includes the following, note this are the ones we've seen.

    number 1:


    Number 2:


    Number 3:


    Number 4:


    Number 5:



    Note: Everything under Pein's Rin'ingan allows him to share vision and to controle



    Simulation start


    Knowing the opponent is Pein, Itachi would probably activate the MS. Pein knows that; 1: sharingan can predict direct attacks but can't stop them if you're faster. Ok lets continue.

    Pein starts by spamming dogs summon and surrounds Itachi.

    Note: From what we've seen yet, you cannot perform 2 MS jutsus at the same time. So please fan boys stay put. Proof:

    Itachi Activates Susano.

    Just so that i am not forgetting anything, Susano's jutsu holds The sword of tatsuka witch can seal anything it pierces aka stabs and Yata's mirror, witch can turn back any attacks.

    Though note, that mirror never turned back Sasuke's kunai, so its just a simple shield nothing more.


    Pein sends dogs toward itachi, Susano does some slicing, yet pein keeps up with the spamming.

    Note: this is the same tactic pein used against Jiraiya.

    Cornered, Itachi switches to long range attack "Amaterasu". I hope you can notice that, he just can't go for fuuma Pein because of Dogs. Attacking pein would be leaving himself open.

    So lets just give him "a chance" and say he burns all the dogs. He's eyes starts bleeding and 1 MS goes away, meaning 2 left.

    I hope that you can understand Tsukiyomi is useless, since Pein's biggest advantage is multiple Bodies and Vision share, witch includes summons.

    Simulation ends.

    I will stop there because, Itachi won't have much to do. From my point of view, the only way of defeating the trio, Pein used against Jiraiya, is to corner them in a small isolated space. Note this is just me speaking, Uchihas we've seen up till now love to rush and rushing against Pein means death.

    Using Susano probably takes more chakra then Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. So please be honest with your self, for your sake and Itachi's sake and admit, he can't keep it up for long.

    So there is my reason why Pein would rape Itachi and probably anyone in naruto verse, unless Kishimoto applies plot-jutsu.

    Edit: Itachi has no disease in my simulation and about his blindness, well thats MS fault so i don't see why taking it away, besides it won't change the outcome.

    Thank you
     
  24. House Barathreon

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    Pain for plot purpose.
    He is a final villain candidate.

    Why didn't Itachi try to kill him when he was stronger?
     
  25. Han Solo ANBU

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    Of course. From what we have currently seen, Itachi wins, assuming he is healthy. Just hold your horses and wait until Pain goes all out and then decided who is better.
     
  26. Lindgren Banned

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    Pain is the strongest shinobi alive.
     
  27. Purble Place Banned

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    We've hardly seen what Pein can do and we've already seen ALL of Itachis MS jutsu. Also there are severe drawbacks of using MS.

    Also read the fight with Jiraiya again.

    Pein has six different bodies, ressurection, absorption, summon spamming and perfect defense (that was shown to be imprenetable until jiraiya used the toad song). Also he has long range attacks (flying punches)... seriously who knows what else he's capable of.

    Plus the way he planned his fight with Jiraiya shows he can overwhelm any opponent (prolly with the exception of Madara) he fights. I don't want to go into lengthy details of how this is possible, because this is a not a battledome thread.

    Anyhoo, even logic suggests that Pein is stronger. He seems to be Madaras partner atm. Zetsu and the others also think very highly of him (this is evident when zetsu asks pein, after his fight with Jiraiya "What took you so long"). He has kept the akatsuki in control (even the crazy and psychotic members like Kakuzu) and it is very evident that they respect him greatly as their leader. Lets not forget Peins hype, and the fact that he might be the final or one of the final villains, who naruto has to stop in order to save the world...

    Seriously, I dunno why people have gone all nuts about Itachi just cause of Susanoo. We hardly know anything about the jutsu and its limitations. As soon as someone counters it, people will prolly shut up about Susanoo being uncounterable etc.
     
  28. Perseverance Only God Can Judge Me

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    Peins got the demons gods eyes... it would be a bit of a piss take if someone like itachi's eyes were stronger...

    Honestly, kishi would have completely messed up the manga...
     
  29. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    Pain "If it wasn't our secret, we would never have won"

    I doubt pain has alot more going on for him, else he wouldn't say such thing. We will see what ugly and Yahiko pain are capable of doing and thats it. I don't think those 2 have broken abilities.

    Also, what I believe is that summoner pain was the strongest body. He told Konan that he took out that specific body to kill the intruder

    Pain's biggest advantage is his multiple bodies, practically its a 6on1 battle. Shared vision grants ultimate defense and the reviving thing is haxxx. Also don't forget about the chakra disturbing spear thingy. I think he doesn't need more, otherwise he'd become really unbalanced.


    I have a less biased and better simulation here

     
  30. Ben Grimm Kicking the Hulk's Ass

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    Than where is the Master of All Six Elements. How do explain Pain's ability to control the rain? How do explain Pain's ability to sense others using rain?

    The Rock Panda alone would be more than enough to stop Ameterasu, if all Sasuke had to do was remove the outer layer of his skin and so far Yamato was able to make a bridge through the ameterasu.

    Susanoo requires that both Tsukiyomi and Ameterasu be first used before it is activated. If in the process of the fight, Itachi never even lands Tsukiyomi by gaining eye contact, guess what, no Susanoo.

    Pain killed a Chunnin with unexplainable reasons when he was a 10 year refugee, and still we have no explanation.

    Pain has shown the ability to resurrect.

    Pain's dog is AOE. Pain's crab knows Suitons. Pains Panda is similar to the defense Gaara used on Kimmi. Pain's bird seems so far to be the fastest flier the way it crashed into Gamaken.

    Pain ate Chou Rasengan like it were Candy. Did you see the size of that thing, what makes you believe he won't eat Ameterasu or Susanoo, both seem chakra based.

    He didn't even start using blades until after the toad song and you honestly believe thats all Pain has to show considering how Jiraiya already stated that it has the power to create a new world or cause total destruction.

    Considering the rinnegan came from the founder of Ninjutsu? Considering Nagato was Master of all Six Elements?

    Even Zabuza showed brand new tricks in his final battle with the mist.

    And you suggest, that in his fight with Jiraiya, Pain has already shown everything he has? Even after prior knowledge that Pain is a benchmark for Naruto and his upcoming battle is very hyped.
     
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