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Amidst all the nerf and chasing,we got a subtle comparison between Yonkou and Admirals.

Discussion in 'Ohara Library' started by Milkydean, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    Akainu is the strongest on the Marines side. Ghandi and French mustache guy from Five Elder Stars might be the strongest top tier in the WG side tho.
     
  2. Admiral Kizaru One Piece Expert

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    Gorbachev :ufdup



    But I honestly don't expect much from the Goresei. They'll probably be reasonably competent & strong and can defend themselves against most threats but not Admiral/Yonkou level.
     
  3. Sherlōck High Functioning Sociopath

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    IMO Gorosei are going to fight Revolutionary army top commanders while Dragon fights Kong.

    I see them Yonko top commander/First mate level at best.
     
  4. Dragon D. Luffy of the Stars

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    I take any power level comparison for post-TS using pre-TS evidence with a grain of salt.

    There was obviously a change in tiers during the timeskip, as evidence with the Yonkou commanders suddenly being much stronger than Doflamingo.

    Oda's tiers tend to have some consistency between close arcs but he has trouble mantaining that consistency throughout large segments of the story.
     
  5. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    Five Elder Stars sounds elite to me. They're old dudes who stand the test of time. Ghandi also sharpens his katana every day. I'm sure he's ready to go slay Mihawk if he wanted to.
     
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  6. Cheeky Chirpy

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    Isn't there a theory of them using Bonney to restore their youth.


    And Mr. Blonde is obviously the strongest one. :ufdup
     
  7. Mr. Black Leg The Ordeal of Love

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    Nah, a Kizaru/Sakazuki/Kuzan punch would have hurt Chopper.
     
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  8. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    their only purpose is to be killed by akainu.
     
  9. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    why?
     
  10. Zeus. Victor Oladeepthroat

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    Again, Fujitora was expending much of his energy holding up all of Dressrosa's rubble. This certainly wasn't Fujitora at 100% trying to defend against Luffy's sudden attack.

    Eating ramen requires very little concentration compared to levitating all of a kingdom's rubble.

    Garp still has the far superior physical strength feats. He obliterates 8 mountains to rubble for training. And he overpowers a man who can split an entire continent. He was pretty much the strongest would-be Admiral ever.

    Because it only took one attack to send Luffy flying. Not two. Not three.

    It was more like a palm strike/slap than a grab.

    Sure but here's the thing: Pre-skip Jimbei >>>>>>>>> Post-skip Chopper.
     
  11. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    Is holding a sword in defense against an obvious technique any more distracting than eating? Plus part of my point is that we don't know whether or not such things are at all a hindrance for Fujitora. That's also a battle worn version of Gear 3rd Luffy who is several times inferior to Gear 4th Luffy.

    We don't yet know enough about Garp's feats. What size are the mountains? Did he destroy a mountain in one punch? We have no idea. Prime Garp is likely one of the physically strongest characters in the series and might not be that inferior to Kaidou's and Big Mam's characters in that aspect. But so far Garp lacks tangible feats. Plus for those of us who consider Garp to be superior to the Admirals it doesn't really matter that much in the Yonkou vs. Admirals discussion.

    Not all techniques that connect on their first attempts are effortless though. And if that were the case then it would suggest that Gear 3rd Luffy effortlessly sends Fujitora flying.

    It's not letting me post the Manga page but if you look at the page prior to that Big Mam's character is reaching for Nami. Plus palm strikes are quicker. Also it in no way resembles palm striking technique outside of being open handed which also resembles grabbing.

    But it wasn't a punch. And I'm not sure that claim stands. Sengoku's punch didn't even do that to Pre Time Skip Luffy. And Sengoku is not only a Fleet Admiral but one who in his far physically inferior form held back Garp without much of a problem. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  12. Zeus. Victor Oladeepthroat

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    Holding all the rubble leftover from Dressrosa is much more distracting than eating. He was lifting his sword to demonstrate that it took some level of concentration/energy.

    And when Fujitora did actually defend back, Luffy could never do the same thing to Fujitora again. AND Fujitora was still using energy holding up Dressrosa rubble.

    But you're saying this with the idea that Kaido and Big Mom have the best physical feats when they haven't shown many feats in comparison to Garp's. What feats have Kaido or Big Mom done to compare to destroying 8 mountains for just training? Or for disabling a pirate who was able to split an entire continent with his head?

    Garp was asked many times to be promoted to an Admiral. He was pretty much the strongest Admiral ever just like Whitebeard was the strongest Yonko.

    It depends on context. Their short skirmish showed that Luffy is still not ready to combat an Admiral yet, but he can put up more of a fight now.

    You can't really know for sure what attack she was doing from a comic page lol. But considering how the rest of Big Mom's attacks have been strikes, it's safe to assume she was doing some sort of palm strike or slap. Also, she would have curled her fingers more to make it look like she's ready to grab a bitch but it was all palm from the looks of it
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  13. Zern227 Slifer Slacker

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    Where's the evidence in manga that a starving admiral, not using their devil fruit and haki, would hurt a guard point chopper.
     
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  14. Mr. Black Leg The Ordeal of Love

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    ... Because they are strong enough to do so?
     
  15. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    ^Based on what?

    We're discussing what Fujitora can do while using his Gravity skills. So we're comparing matching up against Luffy to eating. Which eating is pretty distracting and by many is literally used for distraction. But that's besides the point. We still don't even know if that at all hinders Fujitora.

    Yet we also know that Fujitora doesn't have to consistently do that in order to keep the rubble in the air. Plus aside from lacking evidence that it at all hinders Fujitora Luffy also has the disadvantage of being battle worn. Also Gear 4th Luffy is several times physically superior to Gear 3rd Luffy. So even if it does hinder Fujitora somewhat it would still suggest that Gear 4th Luffy is significantly physically superior to Fujitora.

    Luffy didn't attempt to do the same thing to Fujitora in that Arc so how do we know that?

    Again, we don't even know what Garp's feat is exactly. If it were stated that Garp destroyed a mountain in one punch, then okay we have somewhat of a basis to compare them, but that's not what was said. For all we know he could have punched a mountain 100 times before the mountain was destroyed. But again, for those of us who consider Garp to be superior to the Admirals, it doesn't really matter.

    I find one shotting a legendary Giant character at barely more than a toddler to be more impressive than being able to split the ground of part of an Island in two.

    Garp was asked to be promoted to Admiral while he was a Vice Admiral. Admiral is the next rank after Vice Admiral so it's only natural that Admiral would be the next promotion. It doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't then be promoted to Fleet Admiral after that and/or that he can't be superior to Admiral level. Garp is not limited to the title of Admiral.

    What about the context makes it effortless for Fujitora but not Gear 3rd Luffy?

    Big Mam's character isn't limited to only using certain types of capture techniques. If it in no way resembles a palm strike in body motion and technique then there's no reason to think of it as such, no? As for curling fingers it's easily possible that Chopper's character interfered prior to that. Furthermore some people curl their fingers around and/or after they capture what they're attempting to capture.

    @ Zern.

    Not only is there not any but I have yet to see anyone address the fact that Pre Time Skip Luffy did the same thing to a fully healed Sengoku who was actually attempting to punch Luffy as opposed to a nerfed version of Big Mam's character who was only attempting to capture Nami.
     
  16. Bernkastel Welcome child of man

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    Wasn't BM basically unscathed by the much stronger bolt Zeus fired during his previous enslavement from Nami?
    And to get blocked by Jinbei albeit briefly when G4 couldn't even move her an inch is evident enough BM is currently extremely weakened unless somehow Brook is faster than G4 who couldn't outspeed her,Jinbei is stronger than G4 and Zeus's bolt was insanely stronger than the huge ass one at the forest...i won't even mention Chopper blocking someone like BM which is ridiculous.
    This is BM at her weakest from how things look.

    Btw this would be a perfect chance for someone to take her out :hm
     
  17. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    That doesn't make sense.

    Chopper covered himself in something that is biologically designed to absorb physical impact.
     
  18. Mei Who the fuck is cardio

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    I’ve seen the lights guys, I’m sorry.

    Big mom >= Akainu >= Admirals
     
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  19. Mr. Black Leg The Ordeal of Love

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    Chopper could tank a Goku punch 10/10 confirmed .

    I'm not gonna argue about mechanics but we both know there's a limit to how much of a punch that shit should be able to endure. And it shouldn't be Yonko level.
     
  20. Zern227 Slifer Slacker

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    Except it isn't yonko level, she's nerfed right now. She isn't/can't using haki right now a stable ability that just about every top tier fighter puts behind their attack.
     
  21. Daisuke Jigen Blue Jacket

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    So? Whitebeard on death's door mowed down Blackbeard (someone who is >>>>>>>> Chopper) in seconds. Yet here we have Chopper taking that attack from Big Meme.
     
  22. Zern227 Slifer Slacker

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    Blackbeard got up like a moment later just fine.. Explain Luffy taking Sengoku's devil fruit amped hit, Chopper's guard point uses the same principle except it was specifically refined to do so over the time skip.
     
  23. Zern227 Slifer Slacker

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    Not to mention Chopper's defensive abilities are completely different to those of Blackbeard. So you're just making a false equivalence.
     
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  24. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    ^Plus Chopper's character didn't defend against a hit or anything like that. His character simply got between her character's hand attempting to grab Nami. We've seen characters comparable and in some cases inferior to Chopper's character withstand actual techniques from Admirals and comparable characters. The intelligence of her character is not the most amazing thing in the series but the power difference between her character and the protagonists has been emphasized many times throughout the Arc. :p
     
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  25. Zeus. Victor Oladeepthroat

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    Eating is pretty distracting but it does not compare to having to hold up all of Dressrosa's rubble. Doflamingo could defend a much stronger G3 attack from Luffy. Clearly in this case Fujitora was not trying to guard Luffy's attack.

    Luffy has taken time to heal already. And again, we have not seen much of what Fujitora is really capable of in terms of physical feats. But it really doesn't matter because if you really want to compare pure physical feats, take away Luffy's Gomu Gomu No Mi and take away Fujitora's DF.

    Why didn't he do it again?

    But you're saying Kaido is one of the physically strongest characters ever even though he hasn't shown a feat to his name yet. Same with Big Mom. Has she shown physical feats capable of destroying 8 mountains in training? One shotting a pirate capable of splitting a continent? No.

    Chinjao split a continent. And giants have shown very weak feats over the series in comparison to characters like Chinjao. And Garp did Chinjao in with one punch.

    Garp was pretty much an unannounced Admiral. Whether he agreed to or not, the Marines saw him worthy of being that strong. And Fleet Admiral is pretty much the same as an Admiral.

    Fujitora sends Luffy away the second he goes on the offensive. Why is it that everyone wants Luffy to run from Fujitora? It's clear that Luffy has a ways to go before defeating an Admiral.

    It does resemble a palm strike lol. Have you never seen downward palm strikes that break boards? Why would Big Mom grab Nami instead of striking her like she has done with everyone else?

    As for the rest of your quote, you're just making up a lot of meaningless conjecture "it's easily possible that Chopper's character interfered prior to that".

    Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's probable.
     
  26. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    Again the comparative variables are gravity vs. gravity and matching up against Luffy vs. eating. But it's irrelevant without any evidence that it at all hinders Fujitora especially to the degree that you're implying.

    Some true but his character is still wearing bandages in the Fujitora match up. Suggesting that Luffy's character had yet to fully heal from those wounds. Luffy's Devil Fruit is a physical type which is why it makes sense to count it as part of physical strength. That's not the case for some Devil Fruits such as the Gravity Devil Fruit. But I agree that it obviously counts when comparing their overall skills.

    Luffy basically states that he's taking pity on Fujitora's blindness in that match up. But I don't really see what it matters, Luffy often matches up against characters without using Gear 3rd the whole match up.

    True about Kaidou feats wise but physical strength and defense often mirror each other. Given his character design and his amazing defense it's likely that his character's physical strength is comparable to that of Big Mam's character. But I understand excluding Kaidou's character until we see more feats from him. Garp can literally be said to have destroyed 1,000 mountains but it's not a tangible feat until we know the size of the mountains and how many punches it took for Garp to destroy them. So it doesn't really matter since we're discussing relative comparisons. Again I don't see Chinjao's feat as being in the same league as the ones that we're discussing so far. It's impressive but it's not like we've seen the other characters attempt that feat and be unsuccessful with it. Whereas even characters like Sai are able to overpower Chinjao's head. Gear 4th Luffy is far physically superior to Sai so it's unlikely that he couldn't easily do the same thing.

    I respectfully disagree that Admirals and Fleet Admirals are basically the same. Especially after Caramel's character has made a distinction between the two ranks while talking about skills. Caramel's character hyped up the feats and skills of Big Mam's character and then said that she could easily be Admiral or even Fleet Admiral level. That's also prior to Big Mam's character even achieving Haki and acquiring a Devil Fruit. And again that still assumes that Garp couldn't be superior in skills to most characters in his rank.

    Zoro was happy that Luffy matches up against Fujitora and if I remember correctly also asked to match up against Fujitora. And I acknowledge that Fujitora also sends Luffy flying but that doesn't automatically discount everything else in that match up. Both characters sent each other flying.

    I have but a palm strike while reaching at long distance? A downward palm strike immediately in front of someone, okay. But a downward palm strike looks a lot different than that. Plus even if we set that aside and we assume that her character attempts a downward palm strike it would lose a lot of it's effectiveness in that specific circumstance.

    But the same goes for what you're saying. Since it in no other way resembles a palm strike I would argue that it is likely. :p
     
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  27. Zeus. Victor Oladeepthroat

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    Levitating all of Dressrosa requires Fujitora to use his devil fruit power which in turn requires him to expend energy on doing this (shown by him raising his sword to show that he's the one levitating the rubble). So yes, it hinders Fujitora's ability to do other things like properly defend. It's implied. Just like when any devil fruit user makes use of their devil fruit. Even haki works the same way.

    Which is why this comparison is silly. Fujitora hasn't bothered to show that much of his own power, let alone his physical feats. He has held back throughout this entire Dressrosa arc to the end. It also doesn't help that he's also a swordsman. A better comparison is between Zoro and Fujitora.

    Luffy takes pity on Fujitora, and he shows this by announcing all his attacks to Fujitora. That doesn't mean he was holding back his intentions to try to kick his ass.

    We haven't seen his feats apart from blowing away his own men lol. But you're downplaying Garp's feats even though we also don't know how Kaido was able to survive all his suicide attempts/executions. For all we know he has a devil fruit that grants him immortality. This is the same approach that you're knocking on Garp for in this quote below.

    This is just argument from ignorance/absence of evidence. Chinjao's continent splitting feat is known as a legend(Chinjao himself was a legend) and is a highlighted performance for a reason. Garp personally chased him down for a reason. You can't simply say "it's not like we've seen other characters attempt that feat and be unsuccessful with it".

    Sai overpowered an old Chinjao who was far from the man who once challenged Garp lol.

    That doesn't say much other than the fact that Fleet Admiral is a higher position. It just plays more of a leadership role than its previous and as a way for this person to best represent the Marines. That doesn't necessarily mean Fleet Admiral > Admiral. Akainu and Aokiji were both chosen for the Fleet Admiral position for reasons other than just strength. It wasn't a clear "Akainu was for sure the strongest Admiral, therefore he is the next Fleet Admiral".

    Luffy sent Aokiji flying during the during the pre-timeskip. It doesn't mean much. In Fujitora's case, the context was that he spared the Strawhats and allowed them to venture into Yonko territory where Luffy wouldn't receive the same treatment.

    We could argue the technique all day, but it's pretty trivial. IMO, Big Mom was about to smack a bitch.
     
  28. Sherlōck High Functioning Sociopath

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    Sabo is physically weaker than G3 Luffy.

    It is known. :ufdup
     
  29. Superstars Well-Known Member

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  30. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    @ Zeus.

    I acknowledge that Fujitora has directed gravity with his sword but I have also pointed out that he has done so without using his sword as well. So there's no evidence yet that it's a hindrance. Especially not to the degree that you're implying. And we've seen many Devil Fruit users manipulate their skills effortlessly with and without their hands so I'm not sure what you mean when you reference other Devil Fruits.

    I would agree that it would be silly if we were not including Gravity skills as part of Fujitora's overall skill set. But when comparing physical strength it makes sense that physical based Devil Fruits count as part of physical strength and other types of Devil Fruits don't. I still acknowledge that Fujitora has amazing Devil Fruit skills and I do include them when comparing overall skills between his and other characters.

    But in a sense that's what Luffy does by not using Gear 4th. In any case I don't see what it matters because of the other point that I mentioned.

    I'm not attempting to downplay Garp's feats. I'm simply suggesting that we don't know what his actual feats are in the context of one punch. It's true that the same point can be made about Kaidou's character but if Prime Garp jumped off of a Sky Island without at all being scratched I would think that it's likely that he's second to no other character in that aspect from what we've seen so far. Also I forgot to respond to a previous point that you made. You say that all Giant characters that we've seen so far are relatively lackluster. Even if so Elbaf Island is the most powerful Island in the series. That means that Elbaf Island is even > Wano Country who even The World Government usually stays away from. Big Mam's character at barely more than a toddler one shotted a legendary character from the most powerful Island in the series. That's without Haki and Devil Fruit skills. Compare that to an ill and battle worn version of Old Whitebeard's character doing less than that to John Giant who is a Vice Admiral while using his Devil Fruit skills. Big Mam's character at barely more than a toddler prior to achieving Haki has one of the most impressive physical strength feats in the series so far. Her character is presumably infinitely physically stronger now than she was then and has since achieved top tier Haki.

    It would be argument from absence of evidence if I were claiming that Prime Garp can't destroy mountains in the way that you're implying. But I'm not. I'm simply saying that we don't yet know one way or the other. I have no doubt that Prime Garp is likely in the top 3-5 of physically strongest characters in the series that we know of so far. But there are significantly varying implications based on the variables of the feat. And we lack knowledge on those variables.

    If a character being old makes them far from what they were in their prime then doesn't that imply that Prime Rayleigh is >>>> Old Rayleigh who can match up on par with the Admirals? I mean I agree that Prime Chinjao is > Old Chinjao but if the difference is as significant as you're implying here then Prime Rayleigh is far superior to a character who can match up on par with Admirals. In any case while Prime Chinjao is > Old Chinjao Gear 4th Luffy is also far superior to Sai.

    Again, Caramel's statement is in the context of skills. Her character says:

    Carmel: At the age of five, she had the strength to half destroy the village of Elbaf!!
    Carmel: Make her a Marine, and she’ll easily be Admiral or even Fleet Admiral class someday

    Her character not only uses the word strength but uses a skill based feat to back up her claim. On top of that Big Mam's character had not yet shown any clear potential for a high degree of leadership and intelligence based skills. So that Caramel's character would even talk in excitement of Fleet Admiral potential with no Fleet Admiral distinctive qualities doesn't add up.

    I acknowledge your point on Sengoku nominating Aokiji, but that's Sengoku. Maybe if Sengoku was the number one authority in The World Government it would be based on leadership and intelligence based skills as well but he's not. Also that match up can actually be used against your argument as well because it shows that The World Government is willing to accept Aokiji as Fleet Admiral if he is capable of besting Akainu even though they previously wanted Akainu to be Fleet Admiral. Meaning that even if their ideals clash with Aokiji's they'll accept Aokiji as Fleet Admiral if he's the most skilled Marine. Plus it's not like Garp and Sengoku gave The World Government other options.

    Luffy dodged Aokiji and kicked him. It wasn't a clash of physical strength. I don't count Marco sending Aokiji flying as a physical strength feat unless we're comparing the physical strength of Aokiji's rib cage and Marco. Whereas with Luffy vs. Fujitora it's shown that Fujitora is defending with his sword. If Fujitora is => Luffy in physical strength then naturally Fujitora would have been able to stand his ground without having to move, no?

    Technique is one of the only things that we can use as evidence. And if we assume that legendary Giant characters on the most powerful Island in the series are > Chopper's character then we know that her character can do a lot more than that anyways. And again there's still Pre Time Skip Luffy defending against a punch from Sengoku. So Admiral => Yonkou fans can't rightfully pick on a nerfed version of Big Mam's character for what wasn't even a punch anyways when a Fleet Admiral's punch was successfully defended against by a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy. :p
     
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