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Atheists placing the blame on Communists

Discussion in 'Philosophical Forum' started by MartialHorror, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    In the past, I often used Communism to Atheism is like the Crusades are to Christianity as an example. As pointed out by atheists though, it was the communist atheists who committed all those crimes and Atheism shouldn't be held accountable.

    But then Esponer said something that made me wonder. I wasn't going to do this thread, but with all the anti-Christian threads going on......why not.

    What does communism have to do with morality?

    It's a political system, no more or less moral than capitalism.

    So next time someone says "Religion is a disease that causes all the wars, blah, blah, blah" please remember that Atheists have done the same thing. Even if they didn't do it in the name of Atheism, it goes to show that people will do the same thing under a different reason.

    I've always found it funny though when religion is blamed for everything. Since the beginning of man, various forms of religion have basically dominated the world. So is it religion or man loving violence we have to blame? Atheists who say religion really have no basis, because religion has been around for so long.

    And looking at what Atheists have done(Stalin killed more people than Hitler), despite not being around as long, goes to show how screwed humanity is. Religion or not.
     
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  2. Saufsoldat POOP TRAIN CONDUCTOR

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    To me, there is a major difference between Communism and Cold War-Fascism, that happened/happens in so-called communist countries like Russia, China and North-Corea.

    I don't think, that religion caused the wars, but the believers did. When Urban II called for the crusades, he didn't care about God or Christianity. All he cared about was him getting more power. And that's just what Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong and others did to Communism.

    What you try to say doesn't make sence in my opinion. If someone stabs people on the street, then who cares if the guy is Atheistm, Christian or whatever?

    Stalin didn't murder because he was Atheist. Stalin didn't didn't murder because he was Communist. Stalin murdered because was a fuckin, greedy asshole.
     
  3. Marl Now with added S? Engine!

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    My take on it:

    When a religiously-motivated group commits an atrocity, they're doing it because their imaginary friend in the sky/the voices in their head/their holy book told them to. When atheists commit an atrocity, it's because they're just not nice people.

    From that perspective, I'd say atheists have more of a reason to behave themselves. *shrug*

    I think it goes without saying that bad people will do bad things. The question is whether or not they try to use religion to justify it. In my opinion, the absence of religion would not stop said people from committing such acts. They'd just find another reason to discriminate, or make war, or possibly just be totally honest about the fact that they're assholes and stop even pretending to have a moral justification. Maybe it would stop them. We'll never know. Doubt it, though.
     
  4. The Internet Banned

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    Didn't I tell you to go educate yourself before you attempted this?

    The primary diffrence between what the Commies did and what any religious group did, is that communism was done out of fear of religion/national pride and focus. Communism (and Fascism) both focus everything on the nation. Religion would have effected that. When Stalin did what he did, he didn't do it in the name of Atheism, he did it in the name of the Mother Land/Communism/Soviet Union.

    And lol at anyone who said that Religion causes alot of wars. Religion isn't the true cause of most wars. The only significant war that Religion was truely the focus was the Crusades. 90% of the wars in the history of man kind (lol fake number but in the ballpark) were done for Resource, Political, or Land gain. Religion was used to gain support from the masses, but never the actuall cause. Even the Crusades are quetionable if it was primarly. a religious motivated war
     
  5. Austere O Captain! My Captain!

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    Exactly, you said it yourself, people do not fight because of Atheism. Stalin didn't kill millions of people because he was an atheist, it was because he was a fucking sociopath. You are right, there is a part of human nature that is evil, it just varies from person to person. Humans naturally dislike what is different, which is pretty obvious. Religion just gives people another reason to fight and kill each. You can't compare anything to how many people died over religion; 30 years war, French wars of Religion, Arab-Israeli conflict...shall I go on? Most religious scriptures also contain intolerant ideas, which just help spread the hate and allow for more discrimination. Atheism itself does not hurt anything. Communism wasn't made because Marx and Engels were like "lolz fuxor God lets make Communsim!" Seriously though, what is the reason for this topic? Just pissed because of the religion debate threads around here?
     
  6. Orochimaru-sama Sannin Inconceivable!

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    Communism is closer to religion, not atheism. They may not believe in God, but they have a basically religious faith in their "Leader", and they have the same indoctrination of selflessness toward their Leader, and to Communism. Alright, maybe its closer to fundamentalist religion, not normal religion
     
  7. The Internet Banned

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    Educate yourself on what Communism is. It's about national support and strength than anything.
     
  8. TiGel2. Well-Known Member

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    +1. Too many tend to blame "religion" for atrocities committed by man. Fact is, people will always find reasons to hurt each other, and justify their acts, religion or not.
     
  9. The Internet Banned

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    What was the point of quoting me when what you're saying has nothing to do with my post?

    Regardless if you want to accept it or not, there HAVE been atrocities that were done in the name of religion. Where a zealist, mind warped person went so far into their faith that they had done harm to others of a diffrent, opposing faith. You can go ahead and say "they don't follow true X ideals" but what the fuck mate? If you don't accept them as part of your religious group, just about no one belongs in it because VERY VERY few people in the world have ever gone and lived their lives by the way their faith says they should.

    But you're right on the
    bit. Religion has become another means to persuade a group of people to follow a faithless action. It just so happens that religion is rather highly effective.
     
  10. Edo Αρχίδια

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    Too many tend to blame "insert any ideology" for atrocities committed by man. Fact is, people will always find reasons to hurt each other, and justify their acts.

    honestly we should stop blaming ideologies for our faults and abuse....
     
  11. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Sauf: My point was that people keep placing the blame. My issue was how Atheists often said "Because they are communist, then its communism's fault they did all that" while blaming religion for their wars, ect. The point is, even Atheists can be the same way as religious nuts. Whether their reason or not is Atheism, the fact that they do it just as much goes to show Atheism isn't any better than religion.

    Spectre: Er, didn't you read my post right? I agree with most of that, if not all of that(for once), my issue was that Atheists keep placing the blame on everyone else. I was not blaming Atheists, communists, or anyone of anything. I was simply criticizing the Atheists who pretend religion(and communism, I guess...) is the cause of all wars, ect.

    Austere: My point was that Atheism is simply, no better than religion. My BIGGEST problem with Atheism is this simple fact. It's the "Blame everything else" mentality and you basically fit into that profile. You make a point of all those religious wars, and yes, we've had countless of those. But tell me, has their ever been a time in human history that we know of that religion did not dominate? It's all we know. But when the Communist Atheists do basically the same thing, justifying themselves, the Atheists basically place the blame on Communism. The problem with that is Communism in itself is innocent. I personally think its a flawed political system, but it does not turn people into mass-murderers. So what little we have seen in Atheism being mostly in control, it hasn't shown to be any better or worse than religion. The problem is that Atheists tend to think otherwise.

    When the Americans fought against England, who is always potrayed as the good guys? Obviously when the story is told by Americans, they are. The land of the free was their motto, but then they go on enslaving blacks and basically forcing their will onto the native americans. But it's still the land of the free in their minds.

    Basically, the people look up and see the people who are above them, see their faults, and think they are better. But when they get in that same position, they basically do the same thing but somehow are under the delusion that they are right. This is what I think will happen if the world becomes Atheist. They will always be "Religion did this and that," while they are doing the same thing. The only difference will be the title.

    This is generally what worries me about Atheism, all it takes is one psychopath(like Stalin) who shares this ideal and takes it to the extreme.
     
  12. Edo Αρχίδια

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    Too many tend to blame "insert any ideology" for atrocities committed by man. Fact is, people will always find reasons to hurt each other, and justify their acts.

    honestly we should stop blaming ideologies for our faults and abuse....
     
  13. masamune1 Crouching Tiger

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    To commit an act in the name of a religion/ ideology/ cause, does not mean that the cause in question made you do it. It means that you believe your actions are benefitial to your cause, regardless of whether this cause asked it for you or not. The Crusades, for example, were done in the name of God, but that does not mean that God personally came down and instructed the Crusaders to start their...Crusading. They made up their own minds on the subject.

    It would be like me going on a killing spree, and then saying I did it for the sake of my teddy bear. I did it purely because I thought my bear would benefit from my actions; the bear himself was innocent (unless he really did make me do it).

    And for the record, some of Stalin's crimes really were done in the name of Atheism (again, this does not mean Atheism made him do it), most obviously the persecution of the Churches (started by Lenin, though). He actually had far more complex motives than simply greed and psychopathic mania, as well.
     
  14. Austere O Captain! My Captain!

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    This is a pretty big insult to humanity. All we know is how to follow some God and his principles that we do not even know exist? You are portraying humanity as people who have no moral base without a God. Unlike Christianity, Atheism is not organized and cannot be organized. Each Atheist has his own set of beliefs and principles, it is not based on one doctrine like the Bible. Thus, you cannot blame anything like Communism, Stalin or anything like that on Atheism. His actions were not caused because of his Atheistic beliefs, he was not trying to spread Atheism or anything like that. The reason there is no religion is communism, is because everyone is supposed to be equal, thus no higher being is allowed and consequently is eliminated from belief. You seem to think that Atheists are forming some type of group and is commiting atrocities somewhere, but I fail to see this. What does slavery and colonial expansion have to do with Atheism? White Man's Burden right? At least, that was their excuse. When I look at people, I don't look solely at their faults, and I don't look up at them, I look straight at them. I see their are good parts of religion, as well as the bad parts. However, you need to stop using "they" in referring to Atheists. "They" is not existant, as I said, Atheism isn't some organized religion, we are each individuals, and again, I don't see where people are fighting and oppressing in the name of Atheism or because of Atheism?

    "Atheism is simply, no better than religion."

    Here is what you said. The fact is, Religion is a belief in God, while Atheism is the lackthereof. Atheism is not flawed in anyway, it simply cannot be. If an Atheist commits a crime, the flaw is within the person, not Atheism. The absence of God from someone's belief does not make them any more or less moral than the next person.
     
  15. The Internet Banned

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    Proof of this please? Because every historical record I have read states otherwise.
     
  16. Seelas on a Forums Break

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    Here's a little Stephen Weinberg as food for thought.
     
  17. masamune1 Crouching Tiger

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    The ones I read (well, the books on the subject) disagree.

    Stalin really believed what he was doing was for hte benefit of Communism, even in the later years when he did become more and more egomaniacal.

    Most of his purges were based on his own insecurities, specifically relating to the Party (he was fine in other areas). Stalin was actually quite an intelligent individual, but was shown intellectual disdain shown by some other members of the intelligentsia (like Trotsky). Consequently, he was something of the Black Sheep of the Party leadership, capable of being a leader but ultimately feeling he had something to prove, particularly in view of Lenin, whom he greatly admired. At the same time, he did not view himself in especially arrogant terms (at least until after World War 2), and often was aware of his political weaknesses (such as public speaking, which he never really got the hang of) and uncomfortable in the personality cult created around him, someimes perhaps even worried by it.

    His purges stemmed from his conviction that, if nothing else, his Communist theories were correct. Therefore, whilst there were many men who were better orators, better military men, better diplomats, they could not be trusted if they had different views on how to run the country, because only his views were correct, only his could ensure the survival of Communism.
    He may also have felt that he was proving to the rest of them that, ultimately, he really was a talented leader, and he deserved respect.
    He was ambitious, therefore, but he was still a die-hard Bolshevik Communist.

    I have'nt finished reading up on Stalin, so some of this is a little incomplete, but I have read enough to convince me that there was more to Stalin hte man than Stalin the monster.
     
  18. kulgan18 Mecha freak.

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    There is something very wrong in this post, How can they be the same thing when you just admitted one big freaking difference, does not compute.

    And where do you get that communism is to atheism, like the crusades are to atheism, where the hell do you get that stuff?. Do you know anything about communism?.
    Communism is an ideology, crusades were a set of wars started for religion reasons *roll eyes*.

    First atheism has been around for a LONG time, to the time of the greeks or even before that, the term just started to be used more freely without fear by the time of the french philosophers at the end of the 18th century. Which just happens to be even before Karl Marx.
    The reason atheism seems so recent is because organized religion has been in control, or at least very powerful.
    I mean you wouldnt hear too many people declaring themselves atheist when "atheism" was considered to be a crime.

    And the proof people use is stalin, if you are gonna try to categorice stalin, may as well use fanatic or madman. Stalin was a lot of things, trying to blame his mentality and his actions specifically to atheism lack any Psychiatric evidence.

    Try to equate communism with atheism is complete nonsense, for that matter why dont we start mentioning the people killed in the name of capitalism, wouldnt that be a better comparison?.

    Atheism is the absent of religion, you cant compare economical political systems with atheism. Meaning an atheist can be capitalist or communist(or in between).
    A pure believer in capitalism can not believe in god either, his beliefs are free market and profits.

    The complain against some religion is not that "they start all wars", is that they use fear to impare judgement. So, at the level of the people not in power it becomes a problem. How can people start criticizing those in power when they can be manipulated so easily with words like "hell", "eternal damnation", into doing those things.
    When atheism goes hand in hand with rational thought then is a necesary tool to expose those in power.

    There is no set of ideology that all atheist are part of, many atheist today are humanists or from the school or rationalism. So dont try to come up with ignorant statements like those.
     
  19. Oldy needs to shave

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    Way to pwn your own point.
    They also drunk water, let's blame water. Even if they didn't do it in the name of water :amuse
     
  20. The Internet Banned

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    And all of this tells me how he did it in the name of Atheism where?
     
  21. The Internet Banned

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    And all of this tells me how he did it in the name of Atheism where?
     
  22. The Internet Banned

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    And all of this tells me how he did it in the name of Atheism where?
     
  23. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    Spectre, would you delete two of your multiple posts, and replace the quotation of the third with "…"? We'll know what you're quoting, and it'll save, y'know, space?

    I believe that there will always be humans commiting atrocities, and that further it is difficult to justify blaming a cause as fuelling that human desire when there is no evidence that removing the cause removes, or even lessens, the prevalence of human evil.

    Religion is a cause, and can be used to justify atrocities, but it is unjustified to say that less atrocities would be committed without religion on the basis of a list of atrocities commited in the name of religion. For me, religion is often a less rational, less considered position, and I suspect a correlation between atrocities and a lack of reasoning and philosophising. However, the requirement then is not to remove religion, but to improve reason, and in doing so reduce human evil and also (I would suspect) reduce belief in gods.

    Communism is a political system, and where it is not prevalent or only newly instated, a cause. As a cause, it can inspire atrocities, and unfortunately historically it often has done. This can be easily attributed to statesmen attempting to establish communisms by dictatorial means. We see from history that dictators who institute great change in political systems are very often the same men and women who commit atrocities, often corrupted by their desires. It is often said that no man who wants to rule a country should under any circumstances ever be allowed to, and this highlights the problem. Communisn has been instated by corrupt dictators, and so never had a chance. It's also been used as a cause to justify moral evils, just as religion has, and just as other political ideologies have.

    I don't much like to associate communism and atheism, as I don't see any inherent requirement for a connection. That some of the world's most important communists have been atheists seems a little arbitrary, except in noting that atheists are perhaps more liberated thinkers and so more willing to consider ideas like communism.

    I don't think atheists should be held responsible for Stalin, nor should communists. Stalin is responsible for Stalin, and nobody else, because ultimately it was not his religious views or his political views which made him a monster — it was himself. The same can be said of the instigators of the Holocaust, and of the Crusades. It wasn't their cause, it was them.

    So I agree with you, MartialHorror. It is humanity — not religion, not atheism, not communism and not fascism. The failing of some of the world's atheists is that they believe a world of more reason is a world of less religion and a world of less violence, and thus believe that a world of less religion is a world of less violence. This is fallacious reasoning.
     
  24. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Austere: Er, I didn;t say without God we have no moral basis......I Was saying throughout history, religion has always been around much more than Atheism. Hence, we know how bad religion can be because its always been the dominant. My argument that if Atheism basically replaced religion, it would be no better. I know Atheism doesn't belong to any organization but my point is that humanity is naturally violent and all it takes is one Atheist to take power and say "Purge so and so for the sake of peace" and the circle begins all over again.

    Kulgan: Er, reread my post. My point was that its wrong for Atheists to simply say "It's communism's fault for their deeds" when Communism supports nothing of the sorts. My point was that Atheists are the ones doing so, showing Atheism isn't any better as religion. It simply needs a title to get such a reaction.

    Esponer: I think your post trashed mine.......you basically said what I said in a much more clear and understanding way. Reps for you!
     
  25. troublesum-chan i has one eyeball & its for yu

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    Religion has been around for a long time because of fear.

    Fear of the unknown, fear of making the wrong decisions, fear of choices and fear of death.


    Communism is a flawed concept imo, nice philosophy on paper, but i think we should stop looking at the religious aspect of both the crusades and the communist movement and look at why they are similar and why they were so harmful.

    It is because both religion and communism both foster the promotion of all minds as a whole, and the destruction of individualism. People don't like to make their own decisions, they like knowing everything they do is approved by some all knowing doctrine, and while they will never say so, they like being told exactly whats right and whats wrong. This way they can't make mistakes, they are guaranteed heaven/economic prosperity, and justifications for all actions because the doctrines say they are right. They do not allow themselves to think, and thus become hollow people made up of other peoples ideals, a humoungous ocean of consiousness that is feeble because it bears one mind and destructive because it bears the power of majority.

    In both communism and religion, people surrender themselves to a doctrine that is right no matter the situation, even though it is apparent that some situations call for some compromise and some thinking. But the mass doesn't think. It only believes, it only acts upon what everyone thinks is right. If its alright with everyone to murder these people, why not? we can't all be wrong.

    and that is where the logical fallacy lies. That is where the fatal problem in both communism and religion are, and i think that people by themselves are not to blame.

    It is the mass itself, the group mentality, the hollow person built off of other people's ideas that does not think, that is to blame.
     
  26. Austere O Captain! My Captain!

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    Alright, I can agree with this. Although I think that some of the doctrines of religion is flawed, but I am not sure if Atheism was the majority of the people if the world would be any better. I doubt Atheism will ever be the majority, so I guess we will never know. I agree that the flaw is in with humanity, and that people will naturally fight and discriminate.
     
  27. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    This can be true but this can be said about any political system.

    Trying to make people into "one-mind" is a very good point, but really, look at what the U.S did.

    I am a United States citizen so this is odd coming from me, but the Government got everyone into such an anti-terrorist mentality we basically got over-paranoid and overreacted like crazy. The war in Iraq basically was the result.

    If you look at almost every country, there is almost always a history like that. The problem is most of the people from that system don't realize it. Hell, I was for the Iraq war for the reasons I criticized above until recently. My bias may be what keeps me from blaming Christianity for the crusades. This is another bad flaw of humanity, we always think we're right.

    Austere: In truth, I agree some of the doctrine is etchy. Especially in the Old Testament of Christianity. In all religion I think doctrine can be etchy. But nearly every crime in the same of religion also twists that.

    In the OT, there are verses supporting killing people for stupid reasons. Unfortunatly, in Christianity the New Testament overrides that. Hence, we are supposed to get our rules from that. In Islam, there are verses supporting the killing of non-believers. Unfortunatly, it also gives a strict code-of-honor(no killing women, children, ect) that terrorists generally ignore. I can go on. So its still the people fucking up the doctrine over the doctrine itself.

    I think the world will become Muslim before Atheism, but in the way we are going, I think Atheism will eventually take over that..
     
  28. troublesum-chan i has one eyeball & its for yu

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    I never defended the united states. The one mind thing is something that persists is society in many forms, all appearing to be good things, altruistic things that surrender a persons soul for the feeling that he has done good by humanity by sacrificing his will to think and make decisions for himself.

    Atheists should still be able to use the crusades as an argument against religion, communism doesn't cancel that out, and really, thats a poor analogy anyway since the crusades were very much linked to religon but communism is a philosophy in an of itself. Both should be condemned, but as an atheist, and as an individual who thinks for myself and not as a christian, a communist, or even a pastafarian, they have nothing to do with me.
     
  29. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Lol, Where do you live and what political system do you believe in?
    You don't need to answer, but if you do, I am sure I can throw your argument right back at you.


    And if you are Japanese, or of Japanese descent, this should be easy.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2007
  30. The Internet Banned

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    And all of this tells me how he did it in the name of Atheism where?
     
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