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Awarness v.s. Memory: Can You Duplicate The Soul

Discussion in 'Philosophical Forum' started by Cardboard Tube Knight, Oct 1, 2006.

  1. Cardboard Tube Knight Chika is god now.

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    This turned into a nice debate at the table at the hookah place tonight. And I was just wondering what you guys think, you could call this a cloning thread, but we are concentrating mostly the idea of awarness and whether or not when you duplicate someone that goes with them. You can't say that person is the same person, but how much of our memories are what make us human, how much of that is awarness.

    I'll lay down some good points to think about here, like the fact that you can say a person who has no capacity to remember anything, they would still be aware of themselves, of the world around them, and have a level of awarness higher than than of an animal, that is what I think makes us human. Memories may Individualize the human, but its not what makes us aware.

    More so I don't think having the exact chemical makeup as something that is human makes you human. Like to say that because A is exactly like B, doesn't mean that A has all of the rights and privilages like that B has or vice versa.

    Lets think of it as two glasses, one glass is just like the other. But then by some unseen force, the first glass gets a lid, the lid fits on it and is not part of the glass. The glasses would be the same otherwise, but the lid is seperate and yet adds to it. That is how I see the soul.
     
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  2. Giovanni Rild The mods are my enemy

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    To some people, being forgotten is like fading from exsistance. When you leave you mark on a person, you leave a part of yourself with them.

    That's why first impressions are so important.

    The anime Big O touches the subject of precous memories
     
  3. Firedraconian Lather, rinse, repeat

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    Many animals have both awareness and memories. Are you saying all of them are human?

    A level of awareness higher than that of an animal? For starters, that's impossible. Humans are animals. A human cannot have a level of awareness higher than itself. You'd go into an infinite loop of super-awareness.

    Second, how do you know humans are more aware than other animals? How do you quantify 'awareness'? I'm looking at this bowl. Am I more aware of this bowl than my dog? Some sounds and lights are undetectable by humans. Dogs can hear things humans cannot. Are dogs more aware? Are they more human, so to speak, than humans?

    Oh, I see what this is. So, you're saying that if I cloned myself, exactly, down to every last detail, the same memories, the same mannerisms, the same intelligence, the same personality, everything - that my clone wouldn't have the basic human rights that I would have? Because they wouldn't have a soul?

    See the soul? But you can't see the soul. If I put a lid on one glass, but not on another, I can see that one glass has a lid and the other does not. I can reach out and touch the lid. I could take the lid off. I could put the lid on the other glass. I could throw the lid away, and neither glass would have it.

    Can you see a soul? Touch it? Measure it, in any way? Do you have any reason whatsoever to even believe such a thing exists? At all? We can't see air. But we can measure it. We can weigh it, quantify it. Down at a certain level, we can even detect the individual particles that make it up.

    So, where's the soul? What is a soul made of? Why would humans have souls, but not other animals? What about plants? Where do souls come from? Where do they go?
     
  4. Cardboard Tube Knight Chika is god now.

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    Many animals have a type of awareness, but not the type a human does. Animals aren?t aware of time, of art, of things like that. My dog can see a piece of art but can she really understand what?s going on there. Likewise it would seem they aren?t really aware of space, nor do they measure it.



    From the standpoint of science humans are the highest animal, for the standpoint of philosophy I would have to say that humans are at a place above animals. When you talk about animal rights, we mean other animals, not us.

    See above section.




    Well I never even considered cloned memories. But what I mean is that no matter how many clones you make, none of them will ever be the same. Let?s say two identical twins are standing watching something, since they can?t occupy the same place, they must be standing in different spots, so just there is something different between them and their memories.

    What I am saying is that I don?t think you can create a soul or if you can it would have to be considered as if these clones were like a twin or something. I don?t know obviously because we don?t have clones yet. But I?m not the type to believe that a soul is earned later, I think its inborn and that it comes from some other place. Not just DNA and genetic materials


    The lid thing was a bad example, I didn?t want to use this one because its vulgar, but what if someone were to build two pools identical, and pee in one. When the pool is filled the pee is there, the pee can?t be seen, or touched without touching the water. It looks no different from the water either. You can?t take the pee out, and lets say that draining the water would be the equivalent of death for us. If you drain both pools, kill both people that is to say, they are dead. But only one has a soul to carry on.

    What if a soul isn?t something that is measured like that? What if its just a pure free floating consciousness with no form? I would say it does have a form, but its just the form we are in.

    Do you remember in the Matrix how they had that thing where they said that the way you look in the Matrix is different from that of the real world? Well that?s how I believe the soul looks. I think that we, the way we look here, are just the body image. The soul is like a perfect image of the body image.
     
  5. Firedraconian Lather, rinse, repeat

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    Wait, what? Animals aren't aware of time? You're kidding. My dog is more aware of time then I am. Every night at ten o'clock, there he is wanting me to open the basement door so he can go to bed. He'll bark if I'm not paying attention. Heck, he'll bark if I don't wake up on time to come down and let him outside.

    And as for art, half the time I don't understand what the heck is going on. I went to the museum the other day and one of the display pieces was a toilet. On a a pedestal. The heck does that mean?

    And as for space, clearly you've left the realm of reality into some new universe scientists have yet to discover. Animals can't measure space? When's the last time you saw a cobra stick at something and miss because it was too far away? Clearly they know how long their head is, and how far away the prey is. And if flies can't measure or define space, they're gonna have a real problem knowing when that hand is coming closer, since 'closer' wouldn't even have meaning for them.

    I'll give you the animal thing, mostly because I don't feel like arguing about how humans are or are not the 'highest animal'.

    But awareness? Just because 'animal rights' means 'all the other animals' doesn't mean that other animals are somehow less aware.

    So, if I take myself and clone everything about me, even my memories, how is my clone different from me at that moment? He has the same memories I have, from the same perspective. Wouldn't he be the same person?

    The pee can be seen, at a molecular level. The pee can even be detected. If you replaced 'pee' with 'blood', for example, a human wouldn't be able to see, smell, taste, or even sense it. But a shark would have alarm bells going up and down. So it is detectable. It's not like the pee, or blood, would suddenly become invisible. The molecules are still there, mixed with the water. And while current technology would make this impossible, you could theorectically take out the individual 'pee' molecules and leave the 'water' molecules alone. So it could be removed. (Yes, I know there aren't 'pee' molecules. I mean the different molecules of the things that are pee.)

    And if you drain both pools... what? You have two empty pools and two tanks filled with water, one of which has some urine. The water didn't vanish. It's still there. One might have some urine to carry on, but the non-urine water is still carrying on regardless.


    A pure free-floating consciousness with no form? Oh, it HAS a form, just a DIFFERENT form. A form that... can't be measured in any way. So, how do you know it exists at all? What evidence suggests to you that this is so? Are you basing your assumption on other people telling you, 'This is so', or do you actually have some personal reason to believe in something that can't be detected and has no reason to exist?

    The Matrix is hardly a paragon of truth. This is a movie where people die because they get killed in a game. Clearly something not based in reality.

    So, you're saying our 'soul' is... wait, I have no idea what you're saying the soul is. In the movie, Neo looked a certain way in the Matrix, and in his mind, that was how he looked. He had looked that way for years. When he looked at himself, his mind assumed what it would see.

    You're saying the soul is how we look... but not how we look physically... it's how we wish we could look? The ideal self? Or it's a reflection of our moral beauty? I'm not getting it.
     
  6. Kisame Banned

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    there is no such thing as a soul. Only consciousness. if you could somehow copy all your memories and thought patterns then thats your "soul" right there.
     
  7. Cardboard Tube Knight Chika is god now.

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    Just because you?ve somehow trained the dog to have a routine doesn?t mean they understand time, he just understands its time for him to go out like a bird knows its time to fly south for the winter.

    I believe in a soul because I think there must be something else there that makes us different, because we?re different, and don?t tell me its evolution or something silly like that because only macro evolution really makes sense in the first place.

    And the Matrix thing was an example of what I believe a soul is like, I was trying to use something we have all seen, not trying to say this movie is true, for one the example you gave is probably closer to truth than fiction, if you plugged your mind up to something and your mind died, you probably would to, but that?s beyond the point and it has no relevance, the point was just the form thing, not the matrix being a real place or real thing.

    I guess what I was saying is that it?s a reflection of our ideal self, but the moral beauty thing is something I have never thought about. That would and wouldn?t make sense, depending on different sources. But what I am saying is that the soul, for lack of a better term is an ideal projection of the body, I said it has no form, meaning that all souls don?t look the same. Hearts pretty much look the same from person to person, so do most other organs. But I think a soul would take the form of whatever person it belonged to.

    Clones wouldn?t have a soul, even if you managed to implant those memories because they wouldn?t have really been their memories. You?re trying to measure things scientifically. And while there is a certain science to everything, in a debate like this you?re going to have to deal with things that don?t always follow scientific rules. For example, Love, you can?t give a definition for love, no one can, most of the time when a definition for love is given its just an effect of love, not the actual thing. You can?t even prove love exists really. You can?t see it or measure it, you can?t taste it or smell it and no instrument known to man will detect it, its just something you know in your heart, right?

    About the pee example, you?re concentrating too much on the example, the example is made to make the idea simpler, its in no way the perfect way to understand something every time. The example with the pee was to make it so that it was something not so easily looked at and seen, something so detectable. And also because it made the death idea easier to work in.

    So do you ask me if I have a personal reason to believe in love? Because it?s the same reason I believe in a soul. And the same reason I believe in God. Because I don?t see any other way that things can be.
     
  8. Firedraconian Lather, rinse, repeat

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    So, you believe in a soul because you're short-sighted and unimaginative? Because there is an infinite number of other ways things could be.

    It's late, so rather then do this point by point, I'm gonna try to summarize.

    First, you say that my dog or a bird knowing what time it is, that's different then understanding time. How do you understand time? How is your understanding of time different then a birds?

    You believe in a soul because you think it makes humans different from other animals. Clearly the difference in brain development has nothing to do with it. And all evolution makes sense. It's just that few people understand it.

    The Matrix, on the other hand, does not make sense. You're plugging your mind into something and your mind dies? Are you reading what you write? That doesn't even make sense on any level. First, your memories are imprinted into your brain. Your mind is the memories, experiences, view-points, everything that's in your brain. You can't download it. The only way to kill it would be to physically destroy it, which clearly isn't happening. If I plugged myself into the Matrix and was about to die, then just UNPLUG ME. The simulation would end and I'd wake up. My mind would still be in my body, it can't GO anywhere.

    See, now you're just making stuff up. You assume a soul would be different for each person. But you have nothing to base that on. You're just thinking, "It would be nice if this was so" and assuming that your opinion is fact. You don't even know if soul's even exist, because even if YOU believe they do, it doesn't make it true.

    Clones wouldn't have a soul, then. So.. what? They'd still be alive, clearly. They'd still have my personality, my thoughts, my memories. How would they be different from me, other then being soulless?
     
  9. Kasumi 霞 Drawing Chalk Outlines

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    Hm yep since souls cannot be proven to exist this cannot be a scientifically reasonable argument. If you duplicate everything about yourself into another body than that is another you, the only reason your clone won't imitate your every move is probably due to what part of their surrondings they absorb first through their senses because you and your clone are standing in two different locations (though the actions would be undoubtedly similar). That is... if you can clone yourself I guess. o.O

    I don't see how souls can make us different from one another, there is nothing encoded into a soul that can make us react differently than any other human being. Though I do believe that the belief in the soul is a very appealing thought.
     
  10. Narvi Member

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    Explain to me why clones are soulless. Twins have identical genetic structure, but you aren't calling them soulless, are you?

    Then explain to me what a soul is, and what proof there is for it existing outside your brain besides weird speculation.
     
  11. Firedraconian Lather, rinse, repeat

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    What I'm curious about is if clones are, indeed, soulless... so what? They don't have a soul, and... what? They'll still have a brain, so they'll have a personality, emotions, feelings, memories. They'll be able to make friends, grow, change, develop. I'm not really sure what the soul is supposed to be doing.
     
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