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Ayasegawa Yumichika vs Hinamori Momo

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Esponer, May 29, 2007.

Who would be victorious?

  1. Ayasegawa Yumichika.

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Hinamori Momo.

    5 vote(s)
    41.7%
  3. Too close to tell.

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  1. Esponer

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    Both shinigami are compelled to fight without reservations or unconfidence. Momo may use the initial release of her Tobiume, and Yumichika may use the initial release of his Fuji Kujaku. Momo is assumed to have the intellect to know that with her arsenal of kidō and her long range zanpakutō, distance is to her advantage in this battle.

    The battle takes places in the streets of Seireitei during a civil war, but interruptions can be ignored. Would the lieutenant of Division 5 be able to defeat the Fifth Seat of Division 11, or would Yumichika be able to add another lieutenant to his list of defeated foes?
     
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  2. diamondedge

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    Yumichika wiped the floor with 9th division vice captain, and like Ikakku, he hides his true powers.

    I don't think Hinamori is really skilled with her Zanpaktoiu, because she specializes in demon magic, which can work as HUGE advantage.

    I believe Yumichika to be psychically stronger and much more powerfull than we are let to believe, which means he can hide his feelings, while Hinamori has temper, which can work as huge disadvantage.
    For me, i go with Yumichika. (*ignoring the fact that he is my 3rd favorite Bleach character* :))
     
  3. Esponer

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    I'm tempted by Momo, personally. Her skills with kidō gained recognition by a captain, and given how many shinigami do not seem to use kidō much in combat I'm inclined to believe that Momo could very well have the most powerful kidō of any lieutenant, and potentially higher than some captains (Tōshirō, for instance). Her Tobiume is a kidō-type zanpakutō, allowing her to attack with high-powered energy attacks from a range.

    Yumichika's skill is undeniable, but it would seem that he defeated Shūhei by merit of his released zanpakutō. Importantly, Shūhei seems to be a close range type, which placed him at a disadvantage against Yumichika's Fuji Kujaku with which he had the element of surprise. A more relevant battle of Yumichika's is against Ganju, who prevented Yumichika from taking the battle to a close range. Ganju had very little by way of offensive techniques: Momo is extremely dangerous at mid to long range.

    I'm also interested in seeing public opinion. Momo is not a very well-liked character, and her personality has a devastating effect on her apparent power. I noted that she had no reservations and no lack of confidence for this battle, and want to know if people think she's deservedly a lieutenant.
     
  4. Ibox

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    Only if Momo went into a berserker mode she would win, cause she couldn't hurt her friends (yes I believe every 'good' natured character in SS are friends with each other). Yumichika on the other hand could since he is in the 11th division.

    That, and considering Yumichika only needs to hit with his draining ability I think he would win.
     
  5. Esponer

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    Certainly disregard reservations, as I requested. Perhaps I'm alone in this opinion, but I feel that considering character's reservations in hypothetical battles is somewhat irrelevant. Confidence and resolve can be relevant to the discussion, but I'd like to suggest that we consider both Momo and Yumichika as having perfect resolve.

    The Fuji Kujaku is indeed problematic, however. The battle is rendered more interesting on the grounds that Momo will know beforehand that being up close isn't her forte (against a Division 11 shinigami, if you can fight long range you'd probably be well-advised to try), whereas Shūhei probably relied a little too much on physical stuff, owing to his rough-and-tumble appearance.
     
  6. AbnormallyNormal

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    i think as long as hinamori is presumed to be aware of yumichika's shikai's ability, she can handle him, her shikai is 10/10 and her kidou are 8/10 or so
     
  7. Rinji

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    I imagine Yumichika winning. Once again, Momo is trounced because of her inexperience compared with Yumichika, who has been traveling with Ikkaku for a long while and is arguably as strong as he is, since they both qualify for 3rd seat.

    The Fuji Kujaku is a zanpakutou veiled in mystery. It was powerful enough to take down Shuuhei after he had suffered little to no damage. It is a kidou type, and a very strong kidou type zanpakutou at that. Hinamori would have no idea what hit her if he decided to resort to it. She relies on her kidou, and without it she's... fodder.

    Even if Yumichika managed to be hit by her attacks, he seemed to last against Shuuhei and released his shikai with little effort. Let's also not forget that Yumichika has Division 11 will, and will fight dirty if it means winning. He'll come out looking beautiful in the end, and Momo staring after him with disbelief and bewilderment.

    Ah, but she wouldn't be aware of it. Only Shuuhei knows about it, and he isn't friends with her. Yumichika has very skillfully kept his ability a secret from even his best friend.

    Really, what is up with all these Momo vs. <insert character here> polls? Is someone trying to find a reason to build her up? I believe she was mainly targeted by Aizen not for her fighting abilities, but her ability to be controlled. The plan wouldn't have gone so smoothly if not for that.
     
  8. Esponer

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    Yes, but note that Momo already has very strong reason to keep a distance from Yumichika. Shūhei did not. Momo will be behaving like someone who knows Yumichika's shikai even without knowing.
     
  9. YaoiLOVER

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    You people underestimate Yumichika's skill, he would easily take this one.
     
  10. Rinji

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    Assuming that's she unleash her kidou right from the start. When she charged Kira and Gin, she went straight up close, only using her kidou when she became enraged. Being a VC, I believe she would choose not to use her shikai right away, only when Yumichika started to become a nuisance. After all, Shuuhei didn't use his shikai, either.
     
  11. Esponer

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    One could equally argue that Momo's skill is terribly underestimated. It is doubtless that Yumichika can fight on the level with a lieutenant, but the only lieutenant he beat he seemingly beat with a surprise unveiling of his zanpakutō where Shūhei was tackling Yumichika at close range. Momo has no reason to tackle Yumichika at close range, and so we cannot have the same confidence in the power of surprise here.

    There's no real reason to place Yumichika above shinigami lieutenants, so it becomes a question of whether there's real reason to place Momo below her rank.

    I'm trying to begin a series of relatively close matches: there are far too many threads which aren't even interesting. Yumichika is a Fifth Seat who's established himself on the level of a lieutenant, and Momo is a lieutenant. Yumichika versus any lieutenant would be a battle in the right spectrum.

    Momo's zanpakutō was surprisingly powerful and her kidō skills impress captains. The only reason to label her below the level of a lieutenant is because she's an annoying little bitch, or because she's been irrational and heartbroken in all of her battles. Scratch the irrationality, and we're down to "annoying little bitch", which is unfair reason to think she's not powerful.

    Momo wasn't behaving remotely rationally in those skirmishes by Aizen's design: assume rationality and coolheadedness from Momo in this battle. Besides which, if we attempt the very difficult equation of the two shinigami trying to gauge at which point the other became a nuisance, we must also start wondering when Yumichika will use his initial release.

    If both shinigami play perfect games, Momo will do everything she can to keep her distance. If it helps you to decide, consider "full resolve", "no reservations" and "has the intellect to know to keep her distance" as unique advantages given to Momo for this battle. I just think they're assumptions you have to make for a decent Battle Pit battle.
     
  12. Rinji

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    Once again I reiterate that Momo would most likely not use her shikai right from the start. Evidence shows that in all fights that she's picked, she went close-quarters. We can also assume that she would highly underestimate Yumichika because he's labeled as a fifth seat, and would probably believe she didn't need her shikai to win. Yumichika, on the other hand, cannot underestimate her, because she is a VC. He could more accurately plot a course to victory.

    Yet pitted against Rukia's kidou skill she would easily be defeated. Yes, she does impress captains, but that does not make her undefeatable. No one is aware of Yumichika's ability, but I severely doubt that Ikkaku would want some weakling following him wherever he goes. Yumichika is being severely underestimated.

    And yes, Momo is annoying. It's a part of her character. She's relatively a child.
     
  13. YaoiLOVER

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    Isn't Yumichika trying to learn Bankai? I don't see Hina being anywhere near that level anytime soon..
     
  14. Esponer

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    I think when Momo chooses to use her initial release is actually less relevant to the discussion. We need to establish if she would attempt to keep her resistance, which I've basically established as a battle condition, so the answer to that question is yes. The next question is whether Momo has the ability to keep her distance. Her initial release improves her long range attacking abilities, but should in no way alter her ability to keep her distance, so it's not the key point here.

    The key point here is, how goes a battle between a Momo trying to keep her distance and use long range attacks and a Yumichika trying to reduce that distance so he can obliterate her with close range attacks?

    Please, my thread established as initial conditions no reservations, no lack of confidence and Momo has the wits to keep her distance. Let's not spend the next 24 hours discussing whether she would or not.

    An irrelevant point, but I still have to ask: what makes you so confident of that? I don't recall it ever being stated that Rukia was more skilled in kidō than Momo. Comparison is difficult. Momo destroyed her way through a Seireitei prison with ease, and Rukia never destroyed her way out of imprisonment, but Rukia perhaps lacked the desire to and also the power, as she was weakened at the time. Beyond that, there's little to go on. Both are noted for their kidō, Rukia can easily be placed as being comparable to lieutenants while not holding the rank… but what else do we have?

    And after all, it is irrelevant. Rukia's kidō skill as compared to Momo's has zero bearing on Momo's battle with Yumichika.

    And I never claimed anything of the sort. What I want to establish is that Momo is not a subpar lieutenant: she is an impressive one. Given the initial conditions that she is determined, resolved and rational, there's no reason to underestimate her. Her kidō is a serious threat to deal with.

    I beg to differ. Yumichika is powerful: he is a Fifth Seat on the level of lieutenants. But he is not above the level of lieutenants from what we have seen of him: he is not able to compare with captains, for instance. He wasn't obliterated by Shūhei before he released, but he was doing poorly for himself. He walked away from that battle unscratched because he had the advantage of surprise and used a technique which healed him as it took Shūhei out. Shūhei was also a close range fighter and was probably at specific risk from that.

    And nobody, not even his friends, expected Yumichika to be able to do what he did. He got lucky and also made it look easier because his initial release healed him.

    We can't place Yumichika above lieutenants when he had a damn good fight with an average lieutenant he had an advantage against. He has no such against against a kidō master who's keeping her range. I think from your perspective, it's wiser to assume I'm overestimating Momo than underestimating Yumichika. You can't claim that I'm underestimating Yumichika by thinking he's on the level of lieutenants.

    That's very tricky evidence to try to use. Yumichika is trying to learn bankai, but that means little about his level. Kenpachi is trying to learn bankai, but is level is far above the level you'd expect people to start trying. I think all lieutenants are trying to learn bankai, really, if they can be bothered. It's the next step for them.

    Now, if Yumichika was near success that would be different — but he's not, his zanpakutō is narcissistic and wouldn't listen to him. We know that he struggled with a lieutenant until he pulled a surprise attack that Momo has no reason to fall for.

    One last thing. I'm not sure at which time point we should be considering. I was thinking the same for both, so maybe Soul Society arc is best since they both have fights there and we can gauge their level. Going off extrapolations from any point later is fine too, though.
     
  15. Rinji

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    Yes, but he's having a hard time because Fuji Kujaku's personality is the same as his. They're butting heads, and it's not known whether or not he'll have bankai by the Winter War. Hinamori, on the other hand, is out of commission because she's gone a bit coo-coo for Coco Puffs. XP

    Another interesting point to think about. If Yumichika noticed that she was keeping a far distance, in order to win, would he not unleash his shikai, which is also long distance? He so hates to lose, for he would so hate to lose the respect of the Zaraki Squad.

    From what we've seen of him, but apparently Zaraki is a little wary of him because he tends to come back from battle looking much more energetic than he did when going in. We have no idea what type of zanpakutou Shuuhei has, but I believe he did not use it because he was a VC, it'd be beneath his dignity as a VC to release it against a 5th seat. He did mock Yumichika about it right before he was defeated.

    Let's not make Momo an above average VC. She is relatively new, she's much younger than most of the other VCs. Kira did not seem too fearful of her, despite the fact of his zanpakutou being STRICTLY up close. Just because she is a long distance fighter does not mean she automatically wins.
     
  16. Esponer

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    Do we have evidence that Yumichika's shikai zanpakutō is anything but mêlée range? We may be working under different assumptions. I believed it was, and if that is the case I think Momo will just about be able to outmanoeuvre him.

    I'm not necessarily claiming she's an above average lieutenant, but that I think she has a better chance against Yumichika than Shūhei does.

    Also, Momo seems to be a similar age to Abarai Renji, Kuchiki Rukia, Kira Izuru and Hitsugaya Tōshirō. She's not some extremely young lieutenant, and she's a similar age to people who are certainly stronger than Yumichika. And Kira not being too fearful of her? Only establishes that she's not above Kira's level, and Kira is a lieutenant himself. Kira wasn't too fearful of Rangiku either, and she slaughtered him.

    Another point. The Momo versus Ikkaku thread is, I agree, not so equal. Ikkaku needs to be compared to the most powerful lieutenants — Yachiru, Renji, Kaien, Rangiku and perhaps (just a hunch) Nanao. Ikkaku could also be compared to some of the lower tier captains. Ikkaku battling Momo is relatively clear, although Ikkaku's lack of kidō would at least make the battle interesting to watch.
     
  17. Rinji

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    From what I have observed in both the manga, anime, and video games where he has appeared, he is able to stand at a distance and activate it. It's an area of effect attack it seems -- He doesn't need to touch his opponent with it, and it comes at no cost to him to activate it, because he comes out of the battle with renewed energy and then some. It's a VERY powerful shikai and unfortunately, KT has set no clear boundaries on its use. Yumichika just won't use it most of the time because he doesn't want Ikkaku and the others finding out about it.

    Only because he underestimated her. He didn't know about her shikai, either. He was quite confident that he was going to kill her.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2007
  18. AbnormallyNormal

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    i think you guys underestimate her shikai, she can blast energy balls from it, thats pretty good, and she can slash up the ground easily, for a good distance, with decent power. thats in addition to her outstanding kidou work. plus she is a good hopper of buildings and whatnot, fairly speedy. once again, i repeat that if she has no knowledge whatsoever about yumichika's shikai, she probably would lose. but if she can at least be suspicious about it, she can probably win. his shikai RELIES on surprise, unlike hers.
     
  19. ez

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    I'd give this to Hinamori. She's the most skilled VC when it comes to kidou and her speed and attacks shouldn't be underestimated unless she's going up against captains and the like. Unless Yumichika drains her energy off the bat I don't really see him beating her
     
  20. Maramusa

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    Hinamori doesn't strike me as one of the strongest VC's, unlike Shuuhei, so I say Yumichika takes this one.
     
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