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Blair Intefering in Islam

Discussion in 'Perspectives' started by Black Wraith, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    What are your thoughts?
     
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  2. T4R0K Searching for a custom title

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    I'll reply with an other question : must Imams be trained in the M-E ? Why can't the muslims living in the West be trained where they live, in an educationnal environment devoided of extremist influences ?

    Where's the big beef ? Having "westernized" Imams ? Is that really a problem ?
     
  3. Zabuzalives Active Member

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    One the one hand i can see that trying to mold Islam into your wishes, isnt that great.

    On the other hand i can fully understand not wishing to tolerate all these extremist Imams who have a negative view of the West and only undermine your very society....:notrust

    And dont pretend the M.E. is not interfering with Islam as well. teaching certain streams as a political tool. Trying to spread a view and interpretation off Islam, in more or less the same way Blair does.
     
  4. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    What I'm trying to say is the Government WILL change the way that the Imam's think (I'm not talking about the minority that are radical) to how the Government think. This will make UK similar to all the other M.Eastern countries where the state controls the religion and f**k's everything up.
     
  5. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

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    wow how can you call that interference? its more like bending over backwards to try to be as polite and understanding as he possibly can to islam
     
  6. Kayo ?

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    Not really.
     
  7. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

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    kayo why do you say that? his speech sounded incredibly sympathetic
     
  8. That NOS Guy The Pilot Who Lives by Pride

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    Given the fact that a lot of the foreign imams tend to be of the fire-breathing intolerent lot, his concern is rather well founded. Then again, it's kinda hard to humanize a religion that demands forcing other religions into submission.
     
  9. GrimaH Absurdist

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    "A small but loud, extremist and extremely annoying universally condemned section of a religion" would be more appropriate.
     
  10. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    You need to start learning about Islam. We are not allowed to force anyone to convert, if does try they can be taken to court.
     
  11. CJC Pearl Jam ftw

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    I'm from England and I would rather have political interference in a miniscule quantity than having Imams trained or taught in the M.E come over into MY country and completely fuck up the society I was born and have grown up in.

    If you're Islamic and are living in England you SHOULD learn how English society functions and I think it especially important that people living and working in England should speak English at the very least.

    And please explain how the government is goiong to ruin your religion, because I don't understand. The regimes you mentioned in the M.E which you said ruined religion are for the most part tyrannical and undemocratic, something which England isn't.
     
  12. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    Opposed to middle eastern governments forcing their view on to the schools.

    You say Islam is peaceful, if the UK government is promoting a environment of peaceful Islam how is this changing anything. Isn't this just a reinforcement of Islamic beliefs in peace.
     
  13. @lk3mizt Well-Known Member

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    somebody needs to get their facts right... :notrust
    @black fenix: great ava!! :ruri
     
  14. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    The problem is that Islam is opposed to some of the major policies of the Government and those who don't agree with them:

    ""But critics said the conference had excluded those Muslim groups which had opposed government policies."
    "Labour peer Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, a critic of the government's foreign policy, told the BBC the conference was "fronted" by Cambridge University, but had been organised by the government which had "deliberately chosen to exclude those Muslims who disagree with government policy.""

    "Islam courses 'outdated'"
    How the heck can the Islam courses be outdated if the basics of Islam hasn't changed?

    "He said British politicians must listen harder to the "calm voice of moderation and reason" of the majority of the country's Muslims."
    They didn't listen to us(And thousands of non-Muslims) before all the wars started, what makes you think they'll listen know?

    "He also called for closer links between Islamic schools - madrassas - and mainstream British education."
    I don't want him anywhere near our Madrasa's. He want's the Muslims singing to the tune of the British Government and he is trying to do this from the people near the top (Imams) and the people near the bottom (Students in Madarasa's).

    @lk3mizt, Thanks!
     
  15. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    Such as?

    It seems many Muslim groups were included so obviously there is nothing fundamental about Islam that opposes the policies.

    When the courses teach more than just the basics of Islam.

    By that logic, nothing will ever change.

    Opposed to singing along with how M.E. government want them to behave.

    If islam is universal, it should be able to be taught all over the world, not just the middle east.
     
  16. T4R0K Searching for a custom title

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    Maybe because some parts of it do no longer fit the modern, technological, world we have now. Or maybe it's the way nowadays scholars interpret the Qu'ran that is outdated... With the world we live in, you can't use the mindset they had in the Old Ages. It's not about "changing" the Qu'ran, but to change the way we read and study it.

    And you can do it without going in the M-E or in a "madrassa" that teaches hate (DON'T YOU DENY THEIR EXISTENCE !!! I know they exist, and I've seen them in France !) Because there are madrassas where they don't learn fucked up stuff in some mosques (Dad knows where to go and where NOT to go)
     
  17. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    The problem is we don't know which groups went, therefore we don't know if they are exxagerating or not.
    In my area there are around 10+ madrasa's out of them none teach anything that is extreme. There's might be 1 or 2 extremeist Imam's in the UK.

    We don't follow the ME.
    It is taught all over the world.
     
  18. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    If you don't mean 'interpreting' then your contradicting yourself.
    I go to a madrasa which is for boy's only and for young teanages and adults. We do not teach extremism.
    I am learning to become a scholer (I'm in my 5th year) and from what I have learned we are still being taught what was taught years ago.
     
  19. Le Male Absolu Well-Known Member

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    Many imans were move out of France because of their hate speech or because they teach to the people that they have to punish their wife. We do like Tony Blair want to do. We train our own imams now. We also created that we call a "Islam of France" that respect the republic laws
     
  20. That NOS Guy The Pilot Who Lives by Pride

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    Submission is different then conversion you fucking moron. I know you know what the hell the Jizya and other measures are. I have my facts straight shit for brains, even if you don't.
     
  21. Sandaime Kazekage Opportunist Seme

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    doesn't anyone think it could just be convenient for muslims to have good training somewere less than thousands of mile away?
     
  22. sel Agatha, This is Magnus

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    For Gods sake curb the unnecessary flaming, completeley unnecessary

    Oh come on what the fuck is this? If you're not gonna say anything even remotely constructive then why bother posting? And way to generalise my friend..

    And from when I've been at my mosque i've actually preferred listening to the imams from the west as opposed from Middle East. I find they talk about issues that are more relevant to people like me, so i got no problem with this. As long as its run well it should be okay
     
  23. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    So how can you criticize if you don?t know?

    Where is your area? Because I know there are madrasas that do teach extremism.

    Are you honestly trying to tell me that Islamics schools in the M.E. are not effected by the government.

    Really? Then why are you upset when Blair tries to get more people taught in the UK.
     
  24. Amaretti No strong feelings whatsoever

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    This is probably a policy from Blair I agree with. Why can't Imams be trained in the UK where they intend to preach? Besides being more convenient, if Islam in Britain wishes to shake off the stigma the extremists have brought on them, working as closely with their adoptive country is a must. Resisting any kind of integration is not going to inspire much trust in the Muslim community and only serves to further alienate them.

    Frankly after the July bombings it is not unreasonable that the UK government wishes to secure more moderate British Imams rather than imported ones who come from background unknown and a portion of which have a habit of preaching hate and inciting violence against the very country they've come to preach in.

    Besides, why should Muslims born and raised in Britain be unable to become Imam's for their own community?
     
  25. That NOS Guy The Pilot Who Lives by Pride

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    Fuck you, don't tell me how to defend my own statements from halfwits.

    Way to generalize? It's not a secret that foreign imam's are trained in much harsher versions of Islam. It's also constituting a complete reversal of scripture and historical precedent to teach that Islam is a religion of co-existance in a pluralistic west.

    Why do you bother posting, are you in denial? Instead of actually combating my assertions you just go "ZOMG flaming and generalizing." Attack my point next time junior.
     
  26. sel Agatha, This is Magnus

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    I'm asking you to be civil, its called common courtesy around here mmkay?
    Let me ask you, Which one of us has been preached to by Imams from Middle Eastern Countries? I think that would be me. Of the about 20 who I've listened to not one of them has been "Fire breathing and intolerant" as you put it. And in addition what on earth, apart from your "opinion" possessed you to say that Islam is against coexistance in the west?

    Also "foreign imams are trained in much harsher versions of Islam?" Islam is islam there are no two ways or greys in the Spectrum about it. If you could please rephrase what you were trying to say, that would be very nice. If you by any chance are referring to these Mad Mullahs that preach Death to the Western Infidel, know that i hate them with a passion more than you and that they make up a small percentile of Middle Easter Mullahs.


    I love how you blow your own trumpet; I'll attack your point when you make one, and the post I'm quoting now is the only one so far that really qualifies as one. And im not even goiung to get into that "humanising Islam" Bollocks that you were spouting earlier
     
  27. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    The reason why most Imams are foreign (Not M.E but India Pakistan) is because a couple of years ago there were no teaching facilities. However nowadays there are more facilities being opened in the UK without the help of the Government.

    I live in Yorkshire.
    I'm saying they do, that's why I don't want them to interfer in the UK
     
  28. That NOS Guy The Pilot Who Lives by Pride

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    Don't dictate "common courtesy" to me asswipe. If you have a problem with profanity, deal with it.

    Ancedotal and unverifiable, but let's have fun with this.

    It's British

    The following video documents the extreme intolerence preached by foreign influenced mosques.

    Is that why the Sunni/Shia split exists then? I'm sorry then, I had no idea it was impossible to find loopholes in a 7th century text. This is, of course, the rational (or what comes close to it) religious outlook. Blind insistance that there's only one permutation on Islam is silly. Sure a lot of hardcore basic groundwork is agreed on via textual Koranic evidence, but the Koran is like so many other things a limited document, no matter how much it claims to the contrary. For example, what does it say on abortion?

    But since there's many outlooks and schools of thought in Islam, which is the "correct" one?

    Small eh? Care to back that? I find it hard to believe clerics growing up and being trained in Saudi Arabia are tolerent of religious pluralism. I find it hard to believe that clerics growing up and trained in Iran can respect freedom of dress and expression when their highest body clears men who beat couples to death for holding hands. I find it hard to believe clerics growing up and being trained in Pakistan will respect raped victim's claims of innocence.

    I of course cast a wide net, but these are prevailing religious ideals in these areas and schools of Islamic scholarship. This isn't just about preaching death to the western infidel. This is about being able to practice modern humanistic values in the west. Both Islam and Christianity are hard pressed to not violate themselves and do this at the same time.

    I see that not only are you illertate, you're serially dishonest. My point remains that the concern over foreign influenced clerics is justifiable given prevailing attitudes in the palces they are trained. Secondly if you're refusing to dispute my point that Islam is nigh impossible to combine with any sort of modern morality I'll take that as a concession that you cannot defend it.
     
  29. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    Pakistan is in the Middle East.

    But as you said you didn?t know which Muslim groups where not included how can you make any judgment about the actions of the government.

    If the government was willing to give your school money you wouldn?t take it?

    But this is an application to remove the influence of M.E. schools, wouldn?t it be better to work with the government to accomplish the same goal, then segregating yourself away.

    This is your government as well, isn't it?
     
  30. Black Wraith <b>The Chosen One</b>

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    It's in Asia.
    No I wouldn't nor would the scholers because if we took their money we would eventualy become dependent on the Government and will have to do what they say for the money.
    As most of the scholers are from India Pakistan there ain't much influence.

    Yes it is. It doesn't mean I have to support them.
     
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