Discussion in 'Hunter x Hunter' started by Skilatry, Nov 13, 2018.
He was based on feats.
This is why I don't take you seriously.
Eh? Thought you guys were debating Phinks vs Pokkle, not Phinks vs Killua.
Anyhow, allow me to refresh your memory on just how powerful the Spiders are.
You seriously think a group of Pokkle level nen users can wreck a mafia city like that and without fear of repercussions?
Pokkle fought against nenless ants and the spider ant no sold his arrows while Shizuku blitzed the spider ant, so I dont see how Pokkle is stronger than any troupe member.
LOL He'll probably tell you that Shizuku is stronger than Phinks.
The genei ryodan aren't a group of pokkle level nen users, they vary. Also yes, the mafia was more or less only the shadow beasts or whatever they were named. Their big move was hiring the zoldyck, maybe one or two of those other assassins were quality nen users. If they hired the zoldycks, pokkle group prime would get thrashed of course. But so would a group full of phinks.
Chrollo is the main strength of the genei ryodan. Currently also Illumi as the next strongest by far. Then you have people like Feitan, Nobunaga, and Uvo. Then below them you have Phinks and Bono or whatever his name was (tribe guy). Then you have the non combatant focused characters. The genei ryodan aren't the akatsuki, they are thieves, and the level of power people are at now, we are at the epitome of the human world. Sure netero would thrash the rest of the palace invasion force in the most unholy stomp, but characters like knuckle, shoot, and morel are top end hunters. They are elites, borderline zodiac leveled, morel might as well be one (but he probably didn't love netero as much as the zodiacs did and didn't take an animal theme, or maybe their relationship is newer)
Phinks is only a mid gradeish genei ryodan, and the strongest (chrollo) would at the very least have a hard time against Morel.
Taking out mafia is a shit feat to be honest, killua could have done that in like yorkshin.
No sold? Pokkle was fighting an officer and winning, then got blindsided by a squadron leader with a cheap shot.
Shizuku blindsided the spider ant while he was turned around and only got out of his ability cuz her ability was a counter to get out of it while he was distracted.
Phinks defeated at least hatsu-less soldier ant, if it had nen at all.
If they fought people like the owl and the gorilla, you'd have a point, but that gorilla was a unique soldier ant.
Maybe I would put Feitan at a level near Illumi. Seems quite strong.
Pokkle fought an ant that didnt learn nen yet, so the comparison with Phink's ant doesnt work. The Gorilla ant did know about nen. I dont see how you think otherwise. The Gorillia ant saw Phink's aura increase as his arm was rotating. And all the ants when through nen training after Rammot came back to the hive from his fight with Gon and Killua. And it doesnt matter if the Gorilla ant didnt show a hatus bc he was most likely an enhancer that uses shu on all his weapons and that doesnt require a named hatsu ability to activate. It's like how Hisoka uses shu on his playing cards and kills people with them. He doesnt call that a hatsu but it's powerful enough to kill nen users.
The gorilla ant didn't use nen at any point, it wasn't shown with any nen, nor using any hatsu. We know for a fact that non nen users can feel nen strength, they typically just don't understand what is was. Gon and Killua felt hisoka's casual nen blizzard.
Also no, not all ants.
You're trying to hype up a fodder soldier ant, the only officer under zazan was the spider.
Also the gorilla let him rotate his arm, rotating his arm against someone on your level leaves you open horribly, it's why it gives him power, cuz it is a chore to do and makes him an easy target.
Yeah because, you know, Phinks couldn’t possibly use his legs to move around and dodge of use his free arm to defend while he winds up a shot or anything.
“Pokkle level Phinks” LOL... that means Pokkle would be tied for #2 in Ryodan arm wrestling in your mind. That also puts him above Hisoka according to you.
If he's stronger than the person definitively. But try to fight when you're doing huge rotations, there is a reason it gives him more power, cuz it's heavily inefficient and high risk. Anyone with any knowledge (even a bare bones) of fighting could tell you the same thing, it's more likely to screw you over.
You're the only one who thinks arm wrestling = level of strength within the genei ryodan, that's just raw strength, and noob Gon also beat Nobunaga. That's just physical strength, uvo is the strongest there, but he'd get ragdolled by Chrollo.
Phinks is an enhancer, Pokkle seems to be an emitter.
Why are you downplaying Zazan's squad? Chapter 204 states that each Squadron Leader has 4 to 5 officers, so that means the Troupe fought Zazan's officers. And chimera ants are naturally super strong and durable, even without knowing nen, like how Rammot survived Gon's Rock and Killua's thunderbolt, so the Gorilla ant getting obliterated shows that Phink's power is much more that Gon's. Like do you think Phink's ripper cyclone is weaker than Gon's Rock. Ando you think Pokkle is weaker than Gon?
It doesnt make sense to downplay Phinks. His hatsu is basically like Gons rock, except instead of saying rock, paper, scissors, Phinks has to rotate his arm. And even if you think its a bad hatsu, he was still ready to step in and fight Zazan, even after she transformed into her monster form and no sold Feitan's Ko sword attack. So Togashi implied that Phinks is stronger than Zazan and that he could overcome her durability and speed.
1) Zazan would have had 4-5 officers prior to leaving, there is no knowing what happened. A lot of officers switched to hagya's division. Compare the people that they fought to the officers that Gon and Killua fought. Gon fought 2 clearly nen using officers in meleron's division, one had the ability to create soundwaves that could damage, throw off the brain/senses, etc etc. Another had the ability to transform himself + I believe another ability (plus he uses shu or whatever on feathers that he shot at gon, which is probably an ability as well). They had perfect teamwork and that was the only reason gon struggled with them (and I believe this was pre knuckle and shoot training, or during). Gon swung a tree so strongly that it created pretty much a tornado gust of wind that defeated the sound based chimera ant. Gon then killed the other. Honestly I view this Gon enemy = or > the one phinks fought.
Point being, gon and killua gained A LOT of strength. Those guys killua were wiping out are probably elite soldier ants, they honestly have better feats in just that few second encounter than any of the chimera ants under zazan during that time besides the spider. The fart one is a strong officer and killua would have easily defeated him if it wasn't for being given intel on killua's location.
2) Gon and Killua gained 2 power ups with the fights with kite and the knuckle and shoot training time-period (huge one). They pretty much increased their nen amount by like 10 times + gained a lot of fighting experience and tactics. Killua later instantly ripped off an officer or squadron leader leveled rammot (who had nen) instantly with a head rip (ie without using his hatsu or anything, just base killua). Yes, phinks ripper cycle is weaker than gon's rock. Pokkle is weaker than Gon.
3) Phinks being willing to 1 v 1 is kind of a moot point, zazan was already drained from their fight of nen + fighting someone isn't really a feat. Gon was willing to fight Hisoka, Hisoka was willing to fight Netero despite Netero being able to beat the entire genei ryodan in less than a second, Knuckle and Shoot fought Youpi, Gon was wanting to fight Pitou when they first met and Kite lost his arm protecting them, etc etc. Willingness to fight =/= strength
Also Zazan's form is not speed, it's only a shell, it allowed her to aggressively attack with ko without having to worry about defense since her defense was strong enough to repel feitan's ko.
What's an 'elite soldier ant?' Are they officers b/c then the troupe also fought 'elite soldier ants.' If anything, Zazan's squad is the most elite because they traveled the world and created a kingdom while the other squads stayed with Mereum, so most likely Zazan's squad fought more nen users than the other squads.
How was Zazan drained from fighting Feitan? She got a big boost of power when she transformed while Feitan was stated to be rusty, so it's the other way around. And Zazan did get a boost in speed b/c she was able to quickly react and counter attack after Feitan used his ko sword attack and she was constantly pummeling Feitan afterwards where Feitan had to block her attacks with his sword and then she broke his arm.
Phinks wanting to fight Zazan is different from your examples. Gon wanted to help Kite and not leave him to die after he just lost an arm. Knuckle and Shoot knew the risks, but they had a mission to accomplish.
Phinks saw Zazan's power and wasnt afraid, yet he was very afraid of Feitan's Rising Sun. Phinks is not stupid and if he thinks he's outmatched, then he will ask for help, like how the PT split into teams to find and fight Hisoka or when they were chasing after Gon & Killua, yet both Phinks and Bono wanted to fight Zazan 1v1 if Feitan had lost.
It's a soldier ant who is stronger than mook soldiers ants.
Those guys killua were fighting were ninja'ing around in the trees while also being weapons masters and were using strategy/tactics as a group to take killua down. Meanwhile the best feats of the zazan group are:
Taking one punch from a character who is weaker than gon, and it was a base punch.
Shooting the bee girl with a gun.
Only the spider is a relevant character and he was taken out by a surprise trick attack.
Where someone went is irrelevant, 90% of the squadron leaders left. Leol left before coming back cuz he saw an opportunity and saw Kite's strength.
Zazan didn't gain strength, she gained a shell, her "form" was just protection, which allowed her to be more aggressive without defending, that's all. Also they were fighting for a while and using nen techniques, both were getting drained and tired, you keep forgetting that nen isn't unlimited and you can only fight intensely for so long.
Also no, she didn't gain a boost in speed, more or less she attacked him in the time his attack failed, she was able to keep up with him before this point, no speed boost was gained, he just didn't have his nen defense up and he tried to back up (and he dodged most of it)
The reason she was able to keep pummeling him afterwards is cuz she was being more aggressive, he was still dodging but was put on the defensive. You see, nen is about about %, don't you remember bisky's training at all in greed island? Since she no longer had to put up nen defense in certain areas, she could charge in without any worries and be 100% focused on attacking with ko. and stuff cuz her shell protected her from even feitan's ko. It's not that hard to understand honestly.
Phinks knew the risk, but he had a mission to accomplish too. The squadron leader attacked his home and was fucking over the people. You act like feitan dying would make phinks go "meh, she's weak", no, he'd take her seriously, but he's willing to die to defeat her.
Zazan wasn't that powerful, but she would have beaten phinks probably, the only aspect he had going was that maybe with enough rotations, he could get through what feitan's ko couldn't, her shell, which was entirely the fight at that point.
If feitan died, then clearly she's a serious threat homie. The genei ryodan are willing to die to live the way they want. Of course he was afraid of feitan's attack, it would have killed him if it hit him, he would still willingly fight feitan despite the fact that feitan would kill him with such an attack.
This is zazan's squad:
The only one that used nen was the manipulator, and he was apparently weak, instead relying on the strength of a soldier ant.
In the end, leol's division was the one that were specified as being special most of all.
How is Phinks weaker than Gon? That means Hisoka is also weaker than Gon, so you think Gon had already surpassed Hisoka? Why??
Whats wrong with using surprise attacks? Knuckle, Morel, Killua, and Gon all used surprise attacks to defeat their ant opponents. With Shizuku, it was more of a blitz than surprise attack and her vacuum has to have strong offensive power to cut through an officer ant's durability.
Why do you think her Monster form only increased her durability? She was a manipulator that transformed in a hulk. Her enhancement increased through the roof and we know that enhancement increases both durability and strength.
Why do you think this? The troupe cares about each other. Most of the time they work together and watch each other's backs. The troupe were not willing to die against Zazan. They are prideful but most of the time they team up with the "fighters" guarding the weaker spiders. If Feitan was gonna lose, then Phinks would had jumped in and saved his ass. And if Phinks or Bono thought they couldnt defeat Zazan 1v1, then they would had double teamed her.
And if you downplay Zazan, you're also downplaying Morel and Knuckle b/c the squadron leaders they fought were weaker than Zazan. Cheetu was dumb and weak and only had speed going for him, while Leol had a weaker version of Chrollo's hatsu and got lucky with obtaining that OP surfer hatsu.
Why dont you understand that all the ants use nen?? Rammot opened up everyone's nen pours. And where in the manga did Togashi say Leol's division was the most special?
Hisoka would beat phinks in a fight, just like how chrollo and feitan would shit on uvo despite him being the ultimate arm wrestling champion of the genei ryodan. Hisoka would lose to Killua but would beat Gon.
Yes, and we wouldn't claim that knuckle is youpi leveled, right? It's practical within a fight, but it's useless when determining power-scale.
Gon used surprise attacks to defeat his ant opponents? What are you talking about? Anyway you're mistaking being surprised with a cheap shot, ie coming from behind.
Her vacuum was strong enough to cut through an officer ant's durability when they were not actively using nen (which is 99% of a person's defense)
Feitan was still able to react, the only reason he wasn't at first is cuz he was sure his attack would land and left himself vulnerable, but after his ko failed and he was hit, he was able to avoid her attacks, simply that he was able to hit her. She didn't give up her tail to turn into an enhancer, she was hit and didn't want to suffer more damage, so she got a shell that would allow her to be defended. At that point, she was able to focus entirely on offense, before if she charged in, she would have to worry about counterattack and be focused on defense still, not using ko like he was, but with the shell she could actively use ko cuz his ko wasn't strong enough to break through. She essentially only got a shell, there was no power ups outside of being able to focus on attack (which is more logical assumption than what we saw), overall she just didn't have to worry about defense against feitan.
Your argument falls apart if feitan died against zazan, they'd have let him die to allow phinks to fight her. Anyway he's weaker than feitan, at best I can see his specific ability working well considering he can maybe surpass feitan's ko and possibly break through the shell, which would essentially mean she got rid of the tail for nothing, but that's a favorable matchup over phinks being stronger than feitan, and it's possible she runs him down before he can load up and land a hit.
The Cheetu argument is pretty silly, Cheetu wasn't just speed, his perception of time was also amazing, he saw the disappearing speed actions of knuckle and morel as if they were in slow motion, even having long drawn out internal monologues as he slowly watched them adjust to his speed. Cheetu objectively hadn't been hit by any attack that wasn't a cheap shot more or less. The times he was hit were: 1) A long drawn out plan with a smokescreen that involved making fake smoke illusions and so forth, 2) Morel's plan in the cheetu hatsu, 3) Blindsided by silva going at mach speeds from above while he was focused on Zeno.
The getting hit by Silva scene also was likely cuz he came from above + he was going so fast, he wasn't even part of the battlefield, cuz he was dodging both morel and knuckle going at him in a smokescreen.
Ultimately cheetu vs zazan would result in her objectively not being able to touch him throughout and he wittles her down or his pouf created power (cuz she couldn't tag him) screwing her over (let's be honest, pouf made it, of course it's going to do something like make the enemy their slave or kill them outright, or in some gon post adult gon state)
"while Leol had a weaker version of Chrollo's hatsu and got lucky with obtaining that OP surfer hatsu."
That's kind of moot, Chrollo shits on the phantom trope members we're talking about too. Chrollo is pretty much Silva or Zeno leveled, which is vastly stronger than feitan, phinks, etc etc. You also have to ignore the fact that Leol is strong enough to throw a spear (or whatever) strong enough to pierce a whale deep in the ocean, we're talking about at least Uvo levels of strength, if not stronger, on top of his hatsu and intelligence/strategy. Chrollo would beat him, well he might lose to the surfer hatsu plan unless he has a useful hatsu, but he is superior, but that doesn't ignore the fact that chrollo shits on phinks and bono.
Not that it matters, morel was at like 10% going into the fights anyway, he had tired himself out and restricted access to his strongest hatsu ability (deep purple right??? OR am I thinking of jojo too much?) that allowed him to pretty much equalize pitou's hatsu (the controlling aspect). So essentially morel beat both of them without his actual combat hatsu that allows him to pretty much create a vastly stronger army than the one that killed hisoka, and he went into the invasion fights heavily drained already.
Leol's division was the most fleshed out, unique looking, and had the best feats. Only one member of zazan's squad post leaving (more probably stayed or went under another division during the break) showed any hatsu.
Rammot pointed out that all the people were switching to Leol's division.
At the very least none of the soldier ants in zazan's division had hatsu. Also we only saw like 5 members of her division, this makes it probably the weakest division, ie why she was creating a new army of transformed humans (who were weaker than chimera ants)
Killua blitz him and hits him enough time for Gon to charge his janjanken and one shot him.
Hisoka might be one of my all time favorite character, but those are the facts
Hisoka doesn't know about Kanmuru, he gets paralyzed and takes a Jajanken to the belly.
Fights end there.
They probably beat him in tandem, Hisoka is still superior to either of them individually.
Now that I think about it Gon and Killua together would make a really strong combo with both Rock and Godspeed. Paralyze the opponent with Godspeed and hit them with Rock.
Knuckle by Killua's own admittance is still far ahead of both of them.
Illumi's pin doesn't limit killua's power, nor potential, it limits his judgement against someone more powerful to just running.
Godspeed isn't as fast as a bullet, nor is it faster than Gotoh's coins, if Hisoka can react to those, he can react to Killua.
Godspeed or any of it's subcategory hatsus don't provide strength enhancement. It's not an attack type skill, it only enhances speed. One hatsu is for paralysis and may provide significant damage with the electric shock, but that electricity is not pure electricity, it's still transmuted nen, so the power is relevant to Killua's own nen mastery and aura output.
Gon cannot do anything but get killed on the first go, non serious knuckle blitzes him casually. Although feats might suggest that Knuckle is physically stronger than Hisoka, doesn't mean the cards won't kill the relatively lower level Gon.
So the fight goes like this. If Hisoka doesn't know about Kanmaru, then he will get punished by the paralysis and the Jajanken.
If he does, then Gon gets killed instantly, and he has his way with out thinking Killua, since he can react to him and could probably evade his attacks since he won't go melee on him.(Just like Kurapika uses his chains to maintain range, and make Uvogin chase from afar). Also gum protects from electricity. Hisoka with a 65/100 chance of winning.
Also. Pokkle is a low tier hunter just like Gon and Killua. Notable mid tier hunters are Knuckle, Shoot and Kite. High tier hunters are in the ranks of Morel, Knov and the Zodiac.
The Ryodans are A class criminals. Putting one of them together with Pokkle, is an insult. Especially their 3rd offensive member after Uvogin and Nobunaga. Even shizuko is clearly very skilled in combat, being a conjurer and had high aura enough to support her offense against a chimera ant.
The Gorilla ant was a notable enhancer. Take into consideration all the soldier level up ants had nen by that time.
The Gorilla was built for strength. Pokkle had trouble with a no nen officer, despite ofc being the victim of a surprise attack, but I seem to remember the spider guy catching his arrow.
Also Killua's Godspeed doesn't help him pierce through Phink's defense.