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Cervanres vs. Nightmare.

Discussion in 'Outskirts Battledome Archive' started by Furious George, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    Assuming that both of them have only weakened versions of their Soul Edge's, and assuming were talking about the SC3 versions. Who wins?

    I say definitely Cervantes. He can attack from long range (hidden gun shots and that "psycho crusher"-type move), he's definitely quicker and has a few parrying moves (if I remember correctly).

    EDIT: Fuckin' great. I mis-spelled Cervantes in the title.
     
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  2. Art of Run & the Art of Fun

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    Screw you Cyck. You know i would have pwnd you in that RP battle >:- (
     
  3. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    XD! I was just about to PM you and let you know I set this thread up, Vash.

    BTW, that fight was all mine. I shot and pierced your armor with a sword slash within 2 posts. smile-big
     
  4. Art of Run & the Art of Fun

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    Nightmare goes Nightterror. Fight end.

    I could have done that in the RP too...
     
  5. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    *rolls eyes*

    NEW RULE OF THE THREAD. NIGHTMARE CAN'T BECOME NIGHT TERROR.

    Happy?:amuse

    Damn, forgot to put up a poll again...
     
  6. Art of Run & the Art of Fun

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    Bias turd!

    Nightmare can take an entire army...*Goes off to find more info*
     
  7. Slips Fuck off

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    :( crap ... theres goes my answer
     
  8. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    Nightmare can nuke an army. I've never seen or heard of Cervantes doing anything similar.

    video proof.

    1:05 - Nightmare kicking the shit out of an army.
    3:05 - Nightmare destroying an entire army with a nuclear type blast.

    Also keep in mind that this is a recovering Nightmare with a bad body and missing pieces of Soul Edge.
     
  9. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    - Canonically, Cervantes has slaughtered his share of ships full of people, and the entire population of his home port town.... There just never was a intro video to demonstrate it.

    - That intro video of Nightmare nuking the army featured the Soul Edge in it's complete state (you can look at it and see that). Both the Cursed Pirate and the Azure Knight are fighting WITHOUT their complete Soul Edges. Also, I don't even think that scene was apart of SC's canon.

    - I am aware that Nightmare is recovering.... Remember, as long as Cervantes doesn't have the complete Soul Edge he IS decomposing while on his feet! Cervantes is no longer human. He is just a zombie that survives of the evil of the Soul Edge. He would be just as weak as Nightmare would be.
     
  10. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    Ooh, a SC3 battle. How interesting.

    Well, in terms of power, both of them are near equal with Nightmare having more power. However, I would give Cervantes the speed and intelligence edge in this fight. I'm going with Cervantes in this one since he is the better fighter and while Nightmare is a powerhouse, Cervantes is one as well in his own rights and has speed and experience to boot.
     
  11. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    Ships vs Armys. You decide. And Soul Edge prefers Nightmare.. or Siegfried. Thats a fact. It see's Nightmare/Sieg as its strongest incarnation. Thats why Nightmare is hunting Siegfried to rejoin. And canonicaly, Nightmare conquered countries and destroyed armies until Soul Calibur came along. Cervantes pillaged ships for treasure.

    Sadly you can't chose whats canon and whats not. The makers showed him doing it. Its not like Capcom made the intro.

    Heres the end of this debate right here. Just ignore everything else...

    Cervantes lost to Sophitia and Taki. Neither of the two had Soul Calibur. Inferno with Cervantes impression was defeated by a 16 year old Siegfried who was going through a mental breakdown.

    Nightmare defeated Raphael. Nightmare fought with both Kilik and Xiangua who was armed with Soul Calibur. The math is pretty easy.
     
  12. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    - And yet he did all this WITH THE COMPLETED SOUL EDGE. I have already specified that neither of them would be fighting with their completed Soul Edges in this fight. That ends the whole "Army vs, Ship" debate.

    - Again, the point is he nuked the army WITH HIS COMPLETED SOUL EDGE. It is obvious that Nightmare loses the ability to completing nuke an area without the complete Soul Edge because he can only generate a very small "nuke attack" in the actual game... this is because, in the actual game, he doesn't have his completed Soul Edge.

    - Surely you have heard of the rule that "because X person beat Y person, and Z person would destroy X person, Z person is the winner" is not a good way to debate at all. We are not comparing who is better by "who beat who" in the past, since those people each have advantages and disadvantages in their fighting styles that may be more of a problem for THAT particular opponent then another. WE are comparing Cervantes; an extremely powerful and fast pirate who has long-range capabilities; to Nightmare; an extemely powerful knight with a huge and clumsy sword that leaves him wide open if he were to miss one sluggish slash..... I do agree with you, though. The "math" is pretty easy.smile-big
     
  13. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    Nightmare > Siegfried. Inferno with Cervantes impression > Cervantes. Siegfried > Inferno. Glad you agree the math is easy.

    Its not a matter of style makes fights. Cervantes beat Sophitia but lost one of his twin swords. Taki finished Cervantes off. X and Kilik are the main characters of Soul Calibur. Soul Calibur is a extremely powerful weapon. The fact remains that it took two powerful characters armed with the SOUL CALIBUR to beat Nightmare.

    I say again just to remind you.. Siegfried (Nightmare without powers) handled Inferno (stronger version of Cervantes) with ease. And this is when Siegfried was 16 and going through a mental breakdown.

    LOL @ how you describe Nightmare. Strangely enough the weaker knight Siegfried beat Inferno with Cervantes' impression with his big and clumsy sword and swings.

    Cervantes theoretical speed advantage doesn't mean squat if Nightmare can space him with his big ass sword.

    Siegfried before putting a beatdown on Inferno. Notice his big ass "i'm gonna own you grin" which is exactly what he did.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2006
  14. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    The only thing you have proven with the Taki/Sophitia, Xianghua/Kilil argument is that it took two warriors to take them both down! The prescense of the Soul Calibur with Kilik and Xianghua is irrelevant, as both Sophitia and Taki possessed mystical (aka POWERFUL) weapons when taking down Cervantes.

    Who said that Siegfried EASILY beat Inferno? LOL. Anyway, this is also irrelevant. Cervantes was a level boss, and because he HAD to be defeated to progress the story, he was (as many level bosses) a victim of "Plot no Jutsu" (senseless plot gimmmick placed their simply to move a story along).

    Let us compare them as they are, shall we? It is easy to defer a debate by gathering loosely-related plot points and past battles. Instead, let us look at Nightmare fighting Cervantes, with weakened Soul Edges. Notice I have compared actual battle capabilities WITH WEAKENED SOUL EDGE'S, and you have not. What advantage does he possibly have over Cervantes that would give him the win?

    P.S., keep in mind that Cervantes has parry attacks. Although Nightmare could potentially close the speed difference with the range of the sword, it won't do him much good since his moves are especially easy for Cervantes to counter due to its low speed.
     
  15. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    You know as well as I that Soul Calibur is canonicaly one of the three strongest weapons in the Soul Calibur (notice the name) universe. And no, there is a huge difference. Nightmare fought Kilik and Xiangua (armed with the *title of the game*) AT THE SAME TIME. Cervantes barely beat Sophitia (losing one of his swords in the process) and then was defeated by Taki. Not the same.

    Please... there was no plot no jutsu. What feats has Cervantes done that show he would be able to handle Siegfried? He beat up unnamed pirates and took their treasure. Oooh. It really took plot-no-jutsu for Siegfried to beat the stronger version of that. lol.

    Lets do that... even though canonicaly Nightmare is stronger than Cervantes.

    No you haven't. You said Cervantes is faster and has a gun. You then described nightmare with extreme bias.

    OOOO! Parry attack! lol. Nightmare has two parry attacks as well. One automaticaly counters attacks with a forcefield blast... regardless of wether the opponent attacks or not, the blast still comes out. Speed? Why do you keep on speaking as if Cervantes is a speedster. He's a mid speed character like Nightmare. Cervantes fastest move is a knee that can be auto-countered by Nightmares forcefield. Cervantes' fastest power move is iGDR which is as fast as Nightmare's fastest move df, df, b. While iGDR can do slightly more damage, its extremely unsafe on block whereas Nightmare is completely safe.

    So in a nutshell all Cervantes has is iGDR. His fast little knee... auto-forcefield. His down back k... auto-forcefield.

    Lets look at what Nightmare has...

    - df, df, b which is just as fast as iGDR and has the same range. Does slightly less damage, but is safer on block.

    - auto-parry that automatically counter attacks moves that do a certain amount of damage (anything Cervantes has thats fast).

    - grimstride a auto parries and stuns giving NIghtmare a free back k,k that knocks the opponent down. From there Nightmare can grimstride k,k for an easy ring out.

    - b throw throws opponent extremely far behind nightmare causing easy ring outs.

    - b, hold b gives Nightmare guard crush over an opponent along with a fully charged soulcharge giving him a free unblocakable.

    You lose. Have a good day.
     
  16. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    Finally out of class! smile-big Okay, let's see here....

    Point taken, however still irrelevant. I already said that a). For the hundreth fuckin' time, Nightmare accomplished all this with his completed Soul Edge. It is true that The Soul Edge appears to prefer (and works better with) the Knight as its host, but what difference does that make in this fight? b). I already said (and you actually agree later in this post with me) that this thread is about Nightmare vs. Cervantes. Nothing more.

    Irrelevant, unfunny, and untrue (:p ). What feats has he done besides devestating pirate ships, naval forces (which, BTW, EASILY = Armies) and vilages of the Soul Blade universe single-handedly? Hmmm, you got me there. But, then again I guess all that doesn't matter if there isn't a pretty intro video to show it while it was happening. Oh, and you explain to me how it took both Sophitia and Taki to take down the pirate Cervantes, and yet it only took a 16 year old with a huge sword to take down the physical manifestion of Soul Edge (The true force behind all the incredible "nuking" feats of Nightmare). Lame jokes aren't going to make it make any less sense. Ahem, "PLOT NO JUTSU".


    Not necessarily true... Roughly everything that Nightmare has done with the Completed Soul Edge, so has Cervantes when he had the Completed Soul Edge. Granted Cervantes mainly terrorized the seas of Europe while Nightmare took the land. That and he didn't have the beneifts of today's CGI to show it off.

    And even if it were proven true that Nightmare is canonically stronger then Cervantes, as far as actual battle statistics go he really shouldn't be (which I will describe in the next statement).

    Errr... no. I said that Cervantes has the edge over him in Long-Range capabilities, that he was faster then him, and that he would easily be able to parry most of his efforts since Nightmare has sluggish attacks... All of this is very true.... I didn't even bother to mention that Cervantes, though not being as powerful as Nightmare blow-for-blow, has a MUCH greater damage potential then him (He actually has the greatest damage potential in the game. Most skilled Cerv. users will finish matches before they even begin). Meaning simply that even though a single vertical slash of Nightmare is quite powerful, Cervantes can easily surpass that damage with a quiker 3-hit combo that DOESN'T leave him wide open should he miss it. My description of Nightmare was just a joke, and yet is still has much validity to it.... Here is a serious, un-biased look at Cervantes and Nightmare stat for stat that any SC fan would agree wtih.

    Power: Cerv < Night
    Damage Potential: Cerv> Night
    Speed: (btw I never claimed Cervantes to be a speed demon, but he is CLEARLY faster then Nightmare. There is no arguing this at all.) Cerv > Night
    Close-range capabilities: Cerv > Night
    Mid-Range capabilities: (the thing that Nightmare is supposed to excel at): Cerv> Night
    Long-Range capabilities: Cerv> Night
    Throws: (Nightmare has an impressive throwing game, but so does Cervantes.) Cerv= Nightmare
    Wake-up game: (Easily this goes to Cervantes. Once he gets you down, your not getting back up) Cerv> Night
    Ring-outs: Cerv<Night
    Defensive Capabilities: (Granted Nightmare also has parry attacks, he would NOT be able to utilize them as easily as Cervantes would against him. Not to mention, for the third time, that Nightmare had horrible recovery time on his attacks. Sorry.) Cerv> Night
    Surprise factor: (Nightmare is admittedly very unpredictable with the changes in sword stance. However, Cervantes is also very unpredictable with attacks that can come from either blade and is hard to defend against.... I would say Cervantes wins this too, but for sake of argument...) Cerv= Night

    You can try to argue this, but you wouldn't really come up with anything good if your being honest with yourself. Cervantes devestates Nightmare in almost every category pertaining to SC3, which is what this thread is all about. Now, onto the next argument.

    LOL!!! You thought this was your trump card, I suppose. I'm not impressed at all. ALL you did was type up a possible battle outcome if two guys were playing SC3, while at the same time being completely biased (pot calling kettle black) against Cervantes. I won't even go into details about your overestimation of Nightmare's weak auto-forcefield and underestimation of Cervantes speed by posting up my own battle outcome with button combinations, as it won't prove anything. That is completely based on the skill of the player-at-hand, not the potential of the characters themselves. However, if you want to get completely technical (and it seems you do), consider this....

    SC3 Nightmare is placed as only an upper-mid tier character by the majority of SC enthusiasts. Cervantes, in every SC installation, is always considered a top-tier character... What does this mean? Simple. A player who has completely mastered Nightmare eventually will ALWAYS lose to a player that has completely mastered Cervantes. What is my point? My point is that, if the tier lists have any validity (and trust me, they have WAY more validity then what you posted above), SC3 Cervantes at his best is simply a better character then SC3 Nightmare at his best. The tier lists are hated and condemned among many fans, but are proven time-and-time again to be pretty damn accurate during experimentations via gaming tournaments. It should also be noted that players often use either Cervantes or Ivy (another top-tier charatcer) to win national gaming tourneys all across the world (do the research if you think I'm bull-shitting).

    So no, sorry, I don't lose.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  17. Kisame Banned

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    Nitemare. No questions.

    The best character in Soul Calibur/ Soul Blade and the only one I rock.
     
  18. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    Care to explain how? I understand being passionate about your favorite character and all, but....
     
  19. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    *sigh* You should have given up.

    Naval forces? It was never stated that Cervantes destroyed a naval force. It talked vaguely about him killing those who sought Soul Edge and killing everyone from his home town. That doesn't equal armies.

    You know.. you should have just accepted the video because canon material from Namco states that:

    "At the precise moment that Siegfried obtained the cursed blade, the Evil Seed emanated from him in a beam of light that rained across the entire world, leading only to death and destruction."- Soul Edge

    The only reason "Nightmare" is capable of these incredible feats is because Soul Edge's host is stronger than Cervantes. This is the same reason why Nightmare is stronger than Cervantes. Siegfried was naturaly physicaly gifted and skilled. As a teen he already had his own band of thieves that killed many deserters. He rose through the ranks of Sir Stefan's army, killed him, and stole the Grimblade. He was hardly a normal boy. You should be able to tell that automaticaly considering Siegfried was 5'5, 110lbs, and carying that huge ass sword.

    What Cervantes did was terrify anyone who waltzed into his home town Valencia. It was never stated nor is he ever shown that he defeated naval fleets. Their feats were not the same.

    Dude, of course Nightmare is canonicaly stronger than Cervantes. His host Siegfried (w/normal weapon) is stronger than Soul Edge with Cervantes impression.

    Here you go!!

    Link removed

    :p

    No, it's not. The only long range moves Cervantes has is his retarded gun shot that only an idiot would get hit with and iGDR (the justframe version of his "psycho crusher"). Let me give you a little notation first...

    789
    456
    123

    *Those numbers refer to up, down, left, right, etc.. for example 8 would be up, 2 would be down, and 3 would be down forward.

    Nightmare has...
    - 33b
    - 22b
    - full crouch 3b
    - 6k
    - 1a
    - a, 1a
    - 236 (grimstride) b
    - while rising a,a
    - 4b
    - 4 hold b
    - more, but i'm too lazy to post it

    Actually you're wrong. Astaroth has a 110% wall combo. He also has a regular one that takes around 85% of your health. Cervantes best combo is half-life. It's iGDR, 2 hold bk. The problem with Cervantes best combo is that iGDR, while fast for the amount of damage it does, is EXTREMELY punishable on block. And its much easier to block iGDR than for Cerv to land it.

    What? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. How can Cervantes' "surpass" that with a "quicker" 3-hit combo? What "quicker" 3-hit combo are you talking about? B,b,b? The 3rd hit is unsafe on block. All of Cervantes most damaging combos are two hitters. 3b, 2 hold bk and iGDR, 2 hold bk.

    What I tell you in the end of this post will be really really funny.

    Generaly Nightmare does do more damage.

    Cervantes most damaging combo does do more than Nightmares... but barely. You also have to consider that in order to do that combo you must be able to hit the just frame in iGDR AND if your opponent blocks it you can lose 1/3 of your life and open yourself to mixups.

    Cerv > Nightmare

    The sad thing is that practicaly every "faster move" Cervantes has can be auto parried by Nightmare's forcefield. But i'll give you this since you can technicaly say Cervantes has more fast moves than Cervantes.

    Cerv > *barely* Nightmare

    At close range Cervantes has 1k, 6k, and 3k. All of those can be autoparried. On the otherhand Nightmare has his crouch throw that rings out, knocks down, and gives him excellent oki (wakeup). Nightmare has 3k which is either fast as Cervantes fastest move (Cerv's 3k) or one frame slower. Nightmare has 4k,k which pushes the opponent out. He has his (forgot the command) overhead slash into stance which gives Nighmare frame advantage on block. That means that anything you try after you block that move will be countered with a stance k which will lead to you losing over 1/3 of your life. So what can you do? You block. And that forces you to eat throw mixups.

    Nightmare > Cervantes
     
  20. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    *continue*
    Cervantes has two tools at midrange. Backdash iGDR (unsafe on block), aB (unsafe on blockAND hit), and 66b. Nightmare has backdash 33b along with a billion other moves that push you out and control space well. Thats the problem with Cervantes. He's a one trick Pony. If you cannot land iGDR you will not win. At mid-range a good Nightmare who understands spacing will keep you out all day forcing you to throw iGDRs to get in.

    Nightmare > Cervantes

     
  21. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    *rolls eyes. Abandon's going quote for quote*

    Firstly, Cervantes is indeed a top-tier character in ALL INSTALLATIONS of Soul Calibur, and Nightmare is only a mid-tier in SC3. Check your sources, cheify. Nobody is "googling" here, except possibly you since pushing your own weaknesses and insecuritites on the one your debating is a popular trick. :amuse I'm going off of memory with everything I have posted thus far, since I haven't played any SC game in ages (which is also why I'm not getting into button combinations with you:p ). Of course now I will do some research to verify what you have said, since this debate has been kicked up a notch and I imagine you think I'll back off because you decided to do some quick homework for your newest response (lol). Everything I have brought to the table thus far is NOT bullshit at all. Cervantes and Ivy players do in fact dominate and win tounreys around the world (though I never mentioned it was for SC3. National Soul Calibur Tournament 2003, Ivy and Cervantes players Kageh and FetZ were the finalists. I forget who won. I can and will give other examples. So yeah, phailure on your part. Again, check your sources). Just about everything else you mentioned (which again was either irrelevent to the topic at hand, or depends on the skill of the player) I will deal with in due time or just out-right ignore from now on.

    And now, I am off to challenge your information, which already appears shaky since you didn't even know Cervantes was a Top-Tier character in SC3! :kthumb
     
  22. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    Thats not true. How many tournaments did Cervantes claim in SC 1? Zero. Sophitia, Nightmare, Astaroth, X, and Ivy were considered top tier. Either way, discussions about SC1 and SC2 are redundant. This is about SC3 and the non Soul Edge Cervantes and Nightmare.

    My sources? What are your sources? The tiers are well known to be X, Astaroth, Sophitia, Cassandra, Ivy, and Zasalamel. If you want to get strict, the top-tier can be considered Astaroth and X.

    Right.. yet you seem to be the one trying to avoid the key points I made and the flaws I saw in your post. What was that you said about Cervantes and Ivy being played the most by top players in national tournaments? lol.

    Quick homework? Maybe my subtle hints didn't grab your attention in my last post. Maybe i'll send you a PM.

    Then what you said is irrelevant. You were the one who wanted this to be about Nightmare without Soul Edge vs Cervantes without Soul Edge. Nightmare had Soul Edge in SC2, so anything about SC2 is disregarded.

    Kageh won using Ivy. I already acknowledged that Cervy was top-tier in SC2. Talking about this irrelevant matter is a waste of time.

    Your sources are garbage. Everything I mentioned was relevant. You're the one who keeps on talking about SC2.

    Lets go through this again. Heres a list of all major SC3 tournaments that were national.

    SC3 Nationals 07
    Spoiler:

    1: Omega Mitsurugi (Zas, Mitsu)
    2: Thugish Pond (X)
    3: KrayzieCD (Maxi,Mitsu)
    4: Linkrkc (Ivy)
    5th: HeartNana (Lynette)
    Dinoz (Taki)
    7th: Neorussell (Setsuka, Abyss)
    Oofmatic (Lizardman, Talim)
    9th: PJU (Ivy)
    Junior (Cassie)
    Ivylicious (Ivy)
    Senior (Sophie)
    13th: Octopod (Ivy)
    Bibulus (Sophie)
    Orochi (X)
    Vints (Hwang)
    17th: Jimmypikachu (X)
    Malcolm (X)
    Chris Evers (Sophie)
    Shinobi01 (Taki)
    XA (X)
    Neoshinji (Taki)
    Fuzion (Cass)
    Enigma (Cass, Kilik)
    25: Andre (Mitsu)


    New Mexico 2
    Spoiler:

    1st: BrianHates (Astaroth)
    2nd: Vints (Hwang)
    3rd: 1bello (X)
    4th: KrayzieCD (Maxi, Taki)
    5th: Linkrkc (Ivy)
    5th: Chris Evers (Sophitia)


    Clash 2006
    Spoiler:

    1st: Rob "RTD" (X)
    2nd: Marquette "Mick" (Cassandra, Sophitia)
    3rd: Sean "Linkrkc" (Ivy)
    4th: Garrett "Ivylicious" (Ivy)
    5th: Russell "NeoRussell" (Abyss, Setsuka)
    5th: Senior "SowNemesis" (Sophitia)


    New Mexico 1
    Spoiler:

    1st: tieTYT (Zasalamel)
    2nd: ivylicious (Ivy)
    3rd - RTD (Xianghua)
    4th - semi (Astaroth)
    5th - KrayzieCD (Maxi)
    5th - Agustin (Sophitia)


    I don't know if you're on drugs or if you have a Naruto type bloodline that makes you see Cervantes names on that list of every major SC3 tournament that ever happened. Cervantes was never top-tier in SC3.
     
  23. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    I sent for some info from some friends of mine, and I am waiting for their responses as we speak. But, it appears I may be wrong about Cervantes making that Tier list...... the only thing that appears to agree with me is Wikipedia, which isn't saying a whole lot at all, unfortunately. And no, your "subtle hints" weren't lost on anyone. Which tournaments have you played in?

    *slyly averts attention away from possible defeat by changing the subject.*smile-big
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  24. Gunshin Chocoball Mukai!!111

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    Dude, don't worry about it. Actually, the battle between Cervantes vs Nightmare is a lot closer than I make it out to be. Both are mid-tier and to tell you the truth, when I first played I thought Nightmare was low-tier and Cervy was upper mid.

    All in all, I think Nightmare is better than Cervy because of his easy ringouts, poorman's iGDR (33b), and his ability to control space. Cervantes has a lot of good tools too like iGDR, 1k, 6k, 3k, bK, and aB. However, the problem with him is that he can't really push the pace of the fight. He has no offensive flow. On top of that his best move iGDR is very punishable on block. His other good punisher aB is also very punishable on block and leaves you at frame disadvantage on hit.

    In the end of the day though, the winner will be determined by the better player. Cervy and Nightmare are both charaters that are hard to win with.










    ...one more thing. I was saving this one. lol. Asenka won a major SC3 tourney in Europe using Nightmare. LightningNightmare used Nightmare to win a major broadcasted SC3 tourney in S.Korea for $1000. smile-big
     
  25. Furious George In the Monkey Business

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    Meh, I still think I could have fought for Cervantes much better. I think I would have been able to put up a better fight if I had played SC3 in the last 9 months! I still say Cervantes is better, but I don't know or remember enough to continue the debate. But, of course, Nightmare is an awesome character too (and cheap as all hell if you use him right). I realized I lost this thing a while ago though, admittedly. Unfortunately, your pretty good at arguing!smile-big

    So, have you entered any tournaments?
     
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