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Chrollo's powers and the 4 vs. 1 theory

Discussion in 'Hunter x Hunter' started by Intus Legere, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    Honestly, I never wanted to believe the 4 vs. 1 theory, mostly because it would kind of devalue what was one of the most beautiful fights ever for me.

    Recently, by @Jackalinthebox 's suggestion, I reread Hisoka vs. Chrollo. But there are some points that I really don't understand. If someone can help me out, It would be greatly appreciated.



    1- How does Chrollo makes his Sun and Moon Puppets?


    Or how does he keep multiple two-hands abilities at the same time, at all?

    From what I can tell, normally Chrollo can use one ability at a time, the one at which the book is opened at, and he has to keep his book opened in one of his hands. After acquiring his Double Face bookmark ability, he can both use two hands abilities and use two abilities at a time, as long as his bookmark on one ability and his book opened on another, right?

    He doesn't have two bookmarks also, from what I can tell.

    Then how the hell does he make his puppets?

    He needs to open the bookmark to Gallery Fake and make copies, and for that he needs the bookmark --> He can use Order Stamp because it's an one hand ability, provided he keeps the bookmark Gallery Fake --> Now he uses Sun and Moon, but for that... he needs to remove the bookmark and place Sun and Moon on the puppets, since it's a two hands ability.

    But if he removes the bookmark... Gallery Fake vanishes... no?

    If he has multiple bookmarks, then it's fine. I thought that before... but he doesn't seem to have them.

    Actually, even his first action makes little sense to me.

    Spoiler:












    Open book on Black Voice and take control of the judge --> Open the book on Sun and Moon, place the bookmark there, close the book and place the markings on the judge.

    But... he'd have to close the book to do so... and that would cancel the effects of Black Voice... no?

    What am I missing?

    Theoretically, he could make the opposite: Open the book on Sun and Moon, use the bookmark and close the book, place the markings on the judge --> Reopen the book and use Black Voice.

    That doesn't seem to be what happened, but who knows, Chrollo might be just that fast and nobody noticed when he placed Sun and Moon markings.



    2 - How could Hisoka be so wrong about Chrollo's speed?


    Chrollo hands are fast, he's like a Korean Starcraft player on steroids, but bear with me.

    Using something I wrote on another thread:


    Spoiler:

    (1) Chrollo's immense speed. Hisoka is a fast fighter himself, and he knew Chrollo is particularly fast and agile. So, when he estimated Chrollo's speed, he must have based it on his own perception of what is possible for a guy who is faster than himself.





    Hisoka estimated Chrollo could have still 20-30 puppets active, plus making one each one or two seconds. Sounds like a good guess, no?

    Nope. He already had at least a hundred clones ready, and most of them with the Sun and Moon seals.








    I think I'm being conservative here. There are probably far more than 100 puppets. More like 200.

    I mean, Chrollo is the man, he's got the hype, but... how does Hisoka mistake his hand speed so badly? Hisoka thought 20-30 clones, Chrollo had 200. At worst, he was 10x faster than what Hisoka expected, and Hisoka alleged "knowing Chrollo's speed", so it's not like he's judging baselessly.


    By the way, I watched some videos on the issue which highlighed these questions for me, so I'm gonna post them here for reference. I think the guy brings up some good points that I can't really explain. (And some not so good points, because honestly, I think he wants to believe his hypothesis-- but who am I to blame, I'm the opposite, as I DON'T WANT to believe.)





     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  2. Dr. White Smell nice? it's Moonflower

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    We know the gallery fakes don't vanish for a given amount of time.

    We don't know if order stamp goes away.

    Sun and Moon is permanent.

    So if Order stamps do dissappear and aren't like gallery fake (in that they stay on for like 24 hours or until the arget has completed its task) or sun and moon (in that it's permanent) than he likely kept that one permanently in his bookmark and was switching out between black voice, sun and moon, and gallery fake.
     
  3. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    I'll post a more in depth answer once I get to my computer, just wanted to point something of note out.

    In chapter 353, when Hisoka and Chrollo clash in the air, the latter faked a punch then hit Hisoka with a kick. Hisoka was perplexed as to how it was even possible for Chrollo to modify his attack angle from there

    As strong as Hisoka thought Chrollo was, his expectations still seemed to get blown out of the water at nearly every turn. So Danchou being a good deal faster than Hisoka estimated isn't out of the realm of possibility
     
  4. Nimura Furuta Favorite Jobber

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    Chrollo is honestly most likely one of the fastest humans in the series. By fast I meant movement fast and not just shaking your arms at the speed of sound.
     
  5. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    I'd understand if it was just a bit. But Chrollo was 7-10 times faster than what Hisoka estimated.

    It's just... wow.

    I have to think about this and consider carefully, then I'll answer (can't read manga right now). But it sounds strange that any ability should remain active if the book is closed, from what I remember.
     
  6. Saitou Hajime Active Member

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    After bookmarking Gallery Fake to mass produce his copies, Chrollo activates Sun and Moon and affixes the Sun seal using his left hand, making the copies permanent. He then uses Order Stamp to affix his commands.

    The seals can be affixed in an instant if you all you need is a small-scale explosion like with the referee. In that specific instance, there would've been no need to maintain Black Voice for long.
     
  7. KidTony Vampy sugoi dakara!

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    If this was the case, Togashi would have revealed it at some point to hype Hisoka. "Look, it took 4 people to beat him!". It also devalues the fight a lot, and togashi already expressed his views on how he wanted Chrollo to win 100%. This sets up a rematch were Hisoka goes on a hunt to fight Chrollo on his own terms, after acquiescing to fight Chrollo on his and losing badly. The 4 vs 1 thing completely shit on this. Sometimes there are inconsistencies when authors draw hectic fights and their intentions don't fully translate, doesn't mean there has to be some conspiracy theory behind it.
     
  8. Wolfgang Grimmer Magnificent Steiner

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    sun and moon isn't necessarily a bookmark only ability, danchou could've switched the page to sun and moon and affixed only one symbol to each puppets

    so the process is actually bookmark gallery fake -> produce nen copies -> turn page to sun and moon -> affix symbol with left hand -> release sun and moon -> turn page to order stamp
     
  9. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    You're both right, my mistake. The manga says as much. Chrollo doesn't need both hands to affix just one SUN seal.

    Spoiler:





    But then again, he did affix both seals, which makes the process even slower. Gallery Fake + bookmark --> Sun and Moon + Left Hand seal --> Sun and Moon + Bookmark + affix right hand seal --> Order Stamp.

    These clones did have both Sun and Moon seals, so Chrollo did have to spend more time on then. But, as far as the process go, you'e right, it was my mistake.

    However what I don't get yet it, how is he using Convert Hands and Black Voice along with the suicide bomber puppets? Because if they are not bookmarked, Convert Hands effects will disappear (assuming it's materialization) and Black Voice will stop working.

    I don't get it. You're talking about Chrollo's first actions in the match, right? If so...

    Chrollo first used black voice --> then he affixed both the seals on the referee, so he used bookmark on it, which deactivates black voice --> then reopen black voice and send the referee to fight Hisoka.

    Do you agree or disagree?



    Hisoka assumes it does vanish if the book is not open, though.

    Spoiler:





    "If the copies disappear, it was safe to conclude it was because he released Gallery Fake."

    Though let's assume what you say is truth; because, you know, (1) Hisoka might be wrong, but then we're clueless too about the fight since it all happens from Hisoka's viewpoint; (2) Gallery Fake is special. It's materialization, but it's always visible to everyone -- I kind of doubt In can be applied to it -- and the copies seem to be made of the very material that the originals are made, and not of pure nen. Also, like you said, they must last for 24 hours. I guess it sets it apart as an ability.

    It would be a big plus, as it would make the whole process quicker.

    Again, Hisoka assumes it does -- and it seemed it was right. Whether Chrollo was just misleading him, I can't say.
    Spoiler:



    Bottom panel.

    Spoiler:





    True. However, Hisoka seems to set it apart regarding being permanent, in the same page above:

    "What makes it troublesome... is not that the fact that, once affixed, the seals won't ever disappear until they explode..."

    AND Convert Hands. Which creates more of a problem.

    Assuming Gallery Fakes don't disappear, the cloning process by itself has no problem. Even if it does, disappear, like Saitou Hajime said, the process can still be made.

    There is still a problem, no? How the hell does Chrollo use Convert Hands and keeps Black Voice active while making suicide bomber puppets?

    "He used the right hand of Convert Hands to create a Chrollo copy and was controlling it...?! So then he had the bookmark affixed on Convert Hands? On top of that he is using it together with "Black Voice"...?

    Agree or disagree?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  10. Dr. White Smell nice? it's Moonflower

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    That was him hypothesizing though. We know gallery fake last for 24 hours. I assume chrollo only needs the ability to make the copy, and then afterwards he is cash. Also if sun and moon are added then they exist until they explode.

    But that's what conjuring does. It makes it the same material, and specifically gallery fake makes a nigh perfect copy.





    Unless hit with sun and moon, so that can be a work around to keep the copies existent even if they do go away.


    If chrollo affixes sun and moon to puppets then they don't dissapear even if the ability is not active in the book. That is a work around for keeping them active. So then he doesn't need sun and moon or order stamp in those moments making him free to use his other two abilities.
     
  11. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    I agree that it would devalue the fight.

    But I honestly hope the explanation for it isn't "inconsistency".


    Like I said, Hisoka is basically the only point of view we have for the fight. If his piont of view is not reliable (which might be the case), then we're kinda clueless too.

    I don't think so. A conjured object is a nen object, a real object is something different. It was the whole point about the conjurer/manipulator chains for Kurapika that Uvo and Izunavi were talking about.

    The point is, I don't think conjured objects are made of some real world material, they're just visible and tangible. Kortopi's replicas, however, being perfect replicas, HAVE to be like real world objects, and can't even be applied In on them. That's why I'm saying that it's maybe different from the rest.

    Not that it matters all that much. With or without Gallery Fake being permanent, Chrollo can make his bomb puppets work.

    He was using those abilities to hide among the crowd and mislead Hisoka... while he was making more puppets. That's the whole point, no?

    The point is, using those two abilties while cloning should be impossible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  12. Dr. White Smell nice? it's Moonflower

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    True but then we can't use that to hypothesize about others helping, especially with blackvoice involved and us knowing for fact that blackvoice and gallery fake were in chrollo's book.

    It's a nen object but still takes the characteristics of the real object in question just weaker. Hence the sword explanation.

    I agree.
    Yes but he can just be using it when encotunerting Hisoka, we don;t know how long he was under the two appearences he switched with.
    The problem is that Chrollo's book is like a revolving door. He can just negate things and reactivate them at his leisure. With order stamp/sun and moon combo, and gallery fakes lasting for 24 hours after creation there isn't much of a contradiction cause they allow for him to keep them active while not having them open in book.
     
  13. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    ...

    I guess it didn't take too long between encounters, given Hisoka's time estimation. He thought Chrollo would have some 20-30 clones ready.

    While the explanation works, it still makes the usage of Black Voice and Transfer Student way less useful in the fight if they are so restrictive, especially in such a short time frame.

    Also, considering Chrollo couldn't have made suicide bombers while using Black Voice and Transfer Student, which makes Chrollo's speed all the more absurd.

    Finally, Hisoka could have noticed way earlier that there was something wrong with Chrollo stacking all those abilities. Though I guess that's easy to say in hindsight.

    What about the second point, @Dr. White ? Just Hisoka underestimating Chrollo's speed?
     
  14. KidTony Vampy sugoi dakara!

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    I didn't watch the video, but if the theory is that Shalnark and Kurotipi were in the audience helping Hisoka, then why would Hisoka make a point of telling them he's going to swing by their location later to give them back their abilities? How can both Chrollo and them have the same abilities at the same time?
     
  15. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    I think Chrollo says that he'd give back Shal's phone, not Shal and Koru's abilities.

    The phone is physical. Since Sharkboy is a manipulator, you know, his objects are an actual objects -- like Morel's pipe and Illumi's needles --, and Chrollo would have to give them back . His idea, though has it that Shal has more than one phone or something? I don't remember.

    They don't. The idea is that Chrollo gave back Sharkboy and Lavagirl's abilities as soon as he hid, and then the two were operating in the shadows. Korutopi was making Gallery Fakes and Sharkboy was controlling fake Chrollo as well as controlling the guy who blew up Hisoka's hands. Machi was the one who put a line on Shal's receiver (the one which vanished and got Hisoka thinking if there was a line attached to it) and brought it to him; she also cut Hisoka's bungee gum to the ceiling, not the explosion.

    Anyway, that's his idea.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  16. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    We saw Chrollo using the phone to command the puppet to blow up Hisoka's hand...

    As for the theory in whole; I think it has too many holes. For instance; Hisoka is an expert at sensing people as we saw on Greed Island, him not sensing Machi or Shalnark or Kortopi would be poor writing on Togashi's part
     
  17. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    Chrollo spoke to the phone, though, while Shal played a game. I remember a lot of people, myself included, found it weird back then. Then again, given that the name of the ability is Black VOICE, I think it only makes sense that Chrollo/Shal can control people with... you know... voice.

    The video author, however, has it that Chrollo was talking to Shalnark instead of giving orders to the puppet.

    I agree. But I don't know if Hisoka can sense someone in such a big stadium. He sure couldn't sense Chrollo.
     
  18. Dr. White Smell nice? it's Moonflower

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    That's mad farfetched to think he gave them back their abilities and no one recognized two class A bounties in the audience including hisoka
     
  19. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    There's that, and the fact that Togashi was having trouble remembering stuff inbetween chapters. He probably wrote them over a long period of time

    There was the needle looking like Illumi's rather than Shalnarks & the random crater in the arena. The first one get fixed in the volume release, the latter one did not

    Kalluto was a master of stealth though, yet Hisoka still sensed him without even using Nen. Machi, Shalnark & Kortopi all have worse stealth feats than both Kalluto and Chrollo
     
  20. Starburst~ Member

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    That was a cool video. I only suspected machi helping out with the fight because of the fishing line comment. Sure is a fun theory to discuss.
     
  21. KidTony Vampy sugoi dakara!

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    I believe that Chrollo's ability prohibits the people whose powers he steals from using it (like neon could no longer use ghost writer) so even if Shalnark had another physical phone he should not have been able to use black voice. Also, Chrollo used Galley Fake right in front of Hisoka, so he had Kurotopi's abilities, there's no way Kurotopi could be using it as well unless somehow he met up with Kurotopi in the audience and gave it back. I mean, the hoops you got to jump through to make this theory even slightly credible are insane.
     
  22. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    Yeah, but the guy claims Chrollo gave his abilities back by resigning them or something. Well, he probably can do it, since I don't think he stole Shal and Koru's powers permanently, and was going to give Shal's phone back.

    A power like Gallery Fake probably doesn't need Chrollo and Koru to meet up, since there is nothing physical to give back. It's just some power, no medium required. Well, PROBABLY, since this is all conjecture and we know jack about how would Chrollo give back those two powers.

    Actually, now that I can see how the theory is unnecessary to explain the fight, I actually appreciate it more. In all likelihood the guy is wrong, but he still put quite some effort in thinking all of it, after all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  23. Saitou Hajime Active Member

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    While I don't subscribe to the handicap match theory myself, I do find it suspicious that the Troupe members with the relevant abilities just happened to be hanging around Heaven's Arena. Shal and Machi I can understand, but why did Kortopi even need to be there?
     
  24. KidTony Vampy sugoi dakara!

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    For plot reasons. Togashi needed them in the area so Hisoka could kill them. It plays to the new direction his character is taking, hunting the ryodan to weaken chrollo before their next fight. Of course, this could have been any members of the troop he killed, but its more impactful when this new direction is showcased by having Hisoka taking out the same people whose abilities Chrollo used to beat him, eliminating the same tools that served to do him in.
     
  25. Yasha 沖繩那霸

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    Assuming Order Stamp isn't affected by Sun and Moon and disappears as soon as the ability is released, Chrollo would have to go through each of the 200+ dupes twice, the first round creating them and attaching Sun seal, second round attaching Order Stamp. That's very impressive speed indeed and might involve some trick but I don't buy the 4v1 theory mainly because the so-called evidences presented are mostly flawed.

    Here is my take on the sequence of Chrollo’s action:
    1. Affix bookmark to Gallery Fake
    2. Create dupe with both hands
    3. Open book to Sun and Moon
    4. Put his left hand's Sun seal on the dupe (Chrollo must hold the book with his right hand iirc)
    5. Repeat Steps 2-4 to create 200+ dupes
    6. Release Gallery Fake, but the dupes don't disappear because of the Sun seal
    7. Affix bookmark to Order Stamp
    8. Put Order Stamps on the 200+ dupes
    9. Swarm Hisoka with dupes while landing some shots with hit and run
    10. Identify the headless dupe whose head Hisoka is holding and put a fully charged Sun seal on it
    11. Open the book to Transfer Student and change the appearance of a spectator into Chrollo's (but this requires right hand, which is holding the book....unless Chrollo can hold Skill Hunter with his left hand?)
    12. Open the book to Black Voice to control the fake Chrollo to draw Hisoka's attention
    13. After fake Chrollo is defeated, open the book to Sun and Moon and put the Moon seal on some of the dupes (again, the right-hand problem)
    14. Swarm Hisoka with all the dupes
    15. Open book to Black Voice to control a spectator with Moon seal to locate the fully charged Sun seal and detonate it the moment Hisoka holds the head. Body and head explode as one.

    Speed feat aside, the only part I don't understand is how Chrollo used his right-handed Transfer Student and Sun and Moon abilities while maintaining Order Stamp with bookmark the entire time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 1:07 AM
  26. KidTony Vampy sugoi dakara!

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    Its also not a certain fact that he created 200+ dupes either. The number could be less.
     
  27. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    Shalnark said there were about 200 puppets, but that's not even counting the bomb ones
     
  28. Intus Legere ̣#TeamHisoka

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    I counted roughly (not one by one of course) how many people were running towards Hisoka. It seemed to be 100+- coming from just one third of the stadium in the page spread. Hisoka's body covered part of the panel, too.

    Oh, true, I didn't remember that. 0_o



    [EDIT]

    Confirmed here as well:

     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 10:52 AM

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