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Could Ivan be stronger than we think?

Discussion in 'Fairy Tail' started by MartialHorror, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    There was a "will Raven Tail return" thread awhile back and I figured that it seemed unlikely- at least as a major threat- considering how soundly they were defeated by Laxus. Ivan, who was hyped up as being an enemy in Gildarts' league, was pwned by Laxus immediately.

    However, one thing that's often forgotten is that Ivan had cast an incredibly powerful illusion over the entire arena, fooling even the most powerful mages. Either Ivan has the most BROKEN ability of all time, but just utilized it the wrong way for that battle, or maybe the majority of his power had gone into it. Honestly, the only way the spell would make sense is if it took a lot of magic and concentration. Therefore, Ivan wouldn't be able to defend himself against Laxus. He figured his underlings would be enough.

    But this raises the question of if there are any real weaknesses to illusion spells. "Naruto" at least has ways around it, but the only one I can think of is having a fake eye. Why don't more people learn spells if they're that powerful?

    But meh, think there is any merit to this? Or do you think the author didn't consider it and just wanted to make Ivan's role in the story nothing more than as a stepping stone for Laxus?
     
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  2. Yuki Meow.

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    The thing is even Erza could not see past that illusion, i think it had something else involved in it to make it as strong as it was, if Erza's eye could not see through it then it's not a normal illusion.
     
  3. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    I've always been under the impression that Erza's anti-illusion stuff only works when she closes her good eye. Maybe it's just been an anime addition, but every time she overcomes an illusion (which granted, I think was once), her real eye is closed.

    She'd have to know (or at least suspect) that she's in an illusion to do that.

    Unless Ivan's spells are just so powerful that even her eye can't counter it.
     
  4. Yuki Meow.

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    You have a good point.
     
  5. Bushman Laxus!!!

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    I think that Ivan is way stronger than what he seems to be.
    I think that he is one of the strongest charecter of the series.
    Reason he "lost" to Laxus is that the ilusion got broke and if he kept fighting he would get arrested
     
  6. Azeruth Moderator

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    Erza closes her good eye in the manga as well to break through illusions. I'm sure she had no suspicion of it being an illusion so she didn't close her good eye.

    Then again, nobody, not even Wizard Saints, saw something amiss. Fairy Tail couldn't believe Laxus was "getting beaten" but they didn't buy foul play because of the illusion. I always figured Ivan was strong, I don't understand why he was taken out so early on and quickly. Unless his Shikigami Magic is just that horrible for combat.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  7. Imagine

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    No, he got his shit wrecked by Laxus who didn't even go all out.
     
  8. Grimm6Jack

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    What MartialHorror said, she needs to have her good eye closed, which in fact makes sense.

    And this.

    /Thread.

    Ivan is fodder. Deal with it. Not even hax power of feelings was needed to beat him. :D:
     
  9. CM Pope The Holy Father

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    It's also largely based on Midnight and Ivan using different powers, IMO.

    Midnight was simply bending light to create an image, whereas what Ivan was doing was full blown illusions rather than tricks of the eye.
     
  10. Marik Swift Ƀĕĕń ĺȗȑǩiṋḡ ṧḯṉḉḕ '07

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    That, or Mashima once again forgot all the asspull powerups he gives a lot of his characters. :giogio


    As for the topic itself. While a return of Ivan would be great, at this point I could careless about him since F.Rogue is a very good villain?mostly because he is the only person who can own Natsu and co without being a transcendent like Zeref and Acnologia somewhat, or having some hax power source that he developed for years like Hades does.
     
  11. Bakatohunter56 on a Forums Break

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    I think it is pretty much this...
     
  12. Evolution Beep Boo Bop

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    His illusion was pretty strong but other than that he is nothing special. Hard to see how he is related to Makarov or Laxus.
     
  13. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Would Laxus have been as powerful without the lacrima?

    Makarov is significantly older, so has had more time to build up his power.

    But probably most of all, Ivan just lacks character. He's one of those guys who will bully weaker people, but then be terrified when facing a worthy foe.
     
  14. haegar Well-Known Member

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    I think not everybody can just go and learn any magic he or she wants to wield. there is such a thing as apptitude for certain fields I would assume. as far as we have seen it was often older experienced, even saint level mages that were capable of using multiple kinds of magic. that nonewithstanding, one would asume illusion magic is a tricky thing cause the conditions have to be right to use it with merit. say somebody happens to be out of range of the spell i.e. or join the battlefield after the illusion spell was cast on the enemy ... many mages would rather go with direct approaches I think so maybe that explains why it is not so widely used.

    as for Ivan, I think he got that brand of magic for reasons of character design. It seems he was always craving for power and in doing so was not able to see other things of equal strength. that was pretty much the theme of Laxus revolution, not understanding Fairy Tail's true strength. Ivan being of the same mettle as Laxus back then, and being selfish and wanting to dominate others thus has a magic in accord with that.
    Ironically, as already mentioned, ensorcelling the whole stadium is one badass illusion feat. but just imagine what ivan could have been had he used his magic power for other sort of magic. he IS makarovs son after all...

    I don't know if there will be a comeback, but if there is Hiro had better make him evolve in some way. Laxus showed him the difference between his power and true power, he better come back being able to deliver either some spine or the punch to stay the asshole he presented himself as. otherwise as far as I am concerned he can keep on rotting in some dungeon.

    when it comes to raven tail I am still much more interested in the little imp and what exactly he was. not quite sure if Ivan is needed to further develop that if it ever happens ...
     
  15. Babby God of Lewd

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    I am going to say that Ivan isn't the actual creator of RT but the little imp thing Obra uses.
     
  16. Yuki Meow.

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    I really don't think so...
     
  17. Bakatohunter56 on a Forums Break

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    Based on Ivan's and Laxus's skintone, I have surmised that Laxus's mother was prolly white.
     
  18. Yuki Meow.

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    LOL!!!!!!!
     
  19. Babby God of Lewd

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    Why not? It could be like Nagato/Obito thing.
     
  20. haegar Well-Known Member

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    too complicated. the imp came in later :zaru
     
  21. Atlantic Storm the revolution has begun Advisor

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    He has powerful illusions which trick high level mages, yeah, but that's expected. Weak as he may be, he's still a guild-master, and that would imply he would have a high level of magical power, and his main magical discipline is clearly his illusions. His offensive repertoire, however, is clearly not quite up to scratch. Even with high magical power, his spells were clearly not very good for damaging. They might have a good area of effect, but anybody with long range magic or is a tank could literally plow through it and punch Ivan down the same way Laxus did.
     
  22. Quikdraw7777 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clearing up that mystery, Sherlock.....

    In any case, It was stated on Gildarts' Guild Card that he disliked Ivan. I guess, that, combined with their relative close proximity in age, suggested to me that he was at least somewhere in Gildarts' neighborhood as far as magical capability went.

    I was under the impression that they had a personal rivalry going.
     
  23. Yuki Meow.

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    Ivan put the guild in danger. The guild is mostly full of teens. Gildarts is very protective of those teens. That's enough of a reason for him to dislike Ivan and it does not prove they once had a rivalry.
     
  24. Bakatohunter56 on a Forums Break

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    Elementary, my dear Quickdraw7777771.
     
  25. DemonDragonJ Work in Progress

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    I believe that Ivan is definitely far more powerful than what he appears to be, thus far, as he is the son of Makarov and father of Laxus, both of whom are very powerful magi, so it would be weird if his power was not of the same caliber as theirs, and even if he is not as powerful as they are, he definitely must have some trait that makes him a stronger personal threat to them, since I cannot imagine that someone who is closely related to two major protagonists would themselves be only a minor character.

    No, you are correct that that is not proof of a rivalry between the two of the, but I do believe that that would make for a more interesting story, and definitely would provide greater character depth for Ivan, as well, since he has had little development since his introduction, thus far.
     
  26. Orga777 I LIVE... FOR THE FOURTH TIME!

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    I think most of Raven Tail are stronger than we think. Flare aside, they all had abilities that are extremely impressive. Ivan just made a SEVERE mis-calculation on going after Laxus, who is probably the strongest character in the entire tournament.
     
  27. Grimm6Jack

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    Any of the strongest of FT would've solo'd RT like Laxus did.

    Nallpuding's magic extremely impressive?
    :lmao
     
  28. PwnGoatVSPandaman Narutoforums is cancer.

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    Your existence is flame bait.
     
  29. Darkmaiar Servant of the Outsider

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    Ivan could definitely be stronger than we think.

    I like to think that Ivan is a mage, like Itachi is a shinobi. He's not a straight-up fighter. His abilities lean towards someone who likes to pick the battlefield and the different specifics of the battle itself. Illusions are good when you are already in control and his shikigami seem more like support.

    He's also a sneaky dirty bastard who would rather sell Makarov and Laxus's souls to the devil than go see the man himself. His abilities show by the fact that he is the master of Raven Tail. But... that doesn't mean he's a strong fighter. He may have just been a smart man who put himself on the top; less with brute force, more with dirty plots. Of course he can fight, if his sadistic nature is anything to go by, but I don't think he's the fighter-type enemy.

    That's also why he's stayed around through the story. He doesn't go for the direct conflict, but instead uses underhanded tactics to get what he wants.

    He is strong, but his skills lie in deception more than fighting IMO.
     
  30. DemonDragonJ Work in Progress

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    Yes, those explanations make sense, but do not forget that Ivan has a close personal relationship, and a strong personal enmity, with Makarov and Laxus, both of whom are major protagonists in this series, which should make him a major antagonist by default. In most fictional stories, such a relationship would automatically make him a great threat to the heroes, and I cannot imagine that Mashima would miss this great opportunity to have a villain who is a close and personal threat to one of the main heroes, so I still believe that Ivan shall return at some point in the future as the central villain of his own arc.
     
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