1. Come enter in the KCC Pet Photo Contest!

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  3. We are pleased to invite you to participate in the Naruto Battledome Banner Contest.

    Dismiss Notice

Could someone please explain to me...(Gaara vs Sasuke) *Spoilers*

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki Archives' started by Goemon_Musashi, Oct 23, 2006.

  1. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Of the entire series of Naruto to date, both manga and Anime, this fight boggles my mind more than any other and continues to f* with me.

    I understand that Sasuke only gets the upper hand because Gaara is skullfucked by seeing his own blood for first the time and being cut.

    Could someone please explain to me where Sasuke gets his uber speed from?

    He easily evades the sand attacks and is even able to physically attack Gaara.

    This happens when only a month or so earlier he can't even keep up with Lee's movements with weights on while observing him using Sharingan. He can't keep up with a slowed down Lee but easily dodges the sand? Right O_o....

    It's as if he gained the speed that it took Lee years to obtain through hard training wearing those massive weights.

    Some people I know argue that it might be Sharingan, but that doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't seem like Sharingan, especially an underdeveloped one, could be able to mimic pure body strength. Also, even if it could Sasuke never witnessed the fight between Gaara and Lee and wouldn't have anything to mimic.

    The only possible solutions I can come up with are:
    a. Sasuke secretly know Kage Bunshin and trained in the same way Naruto is currently in the Manga.
    b. Kakashi teaches him to open the first gate and they just don't tell anyone.
    c. Kakashi loaned him Yondaime's magical secret kunai of death which gave him uber speed.
    d. Just plain hacks.

    Also, is it just me, or is he no where near as fast as this later on when he fights Naruto and the Sound Four and what not.
     
    Tags:
  2. Shiron BOING!!!

    Messages:
    10,446
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Sasuke trained to get as fast as Lee (with the weights on) as he was learning how to do Chidori. This was said around the time Sasuke used the Chidori for the first time, when Gai and Kakashi were explaining what it was.
     
  3. AuxunauxiaNoname 螺旋派侠客

    Messages:
    3,661
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    And Sasuke's a 'genius', he gets bonus points for that. ><

    Oh fell :p

    Oh that and he's a bishi... so for the sake of all the crazy fanatical fangirls out there, go gaga over Sasuke...
     
  4. narutofangd Banned

    Messages:
    6,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    The lightining blade needs a thrust with high speed seeing as he was able to copy lees speed with Kakashi's taijutsu training.
     
  5. Shiron BOING!!!

    Messages:
    10,446
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    He didn't copy Lee's speed. He just trained to get as fast as him (with the weights on). The Sharingan can't copy things like speed; only jutsus.
     
  6. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Yeah, but...

    That just doesn't seem adequate...
    It probably took Lee months or years of endless training to obtain his speed.
    It doesn't make sense for Sasuke to obtain that speed in one month.
    You would have to gradually add weight as you trained over a prolonged period of time or else muscles would probably be strained and deteriorate.

    Also, doesn't he seem slower after that fight?
     
  7. Shiron BOING!!!

    Messages:
    10,446
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Well, that was the explanation that was given to us. Chalk it up to a plot hole, then. =/
     
  8. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    I'm with Goemon. One day he couldn't come close to keeping up with Lee's weighed down, not-even-really-trying speed. A month later he's straight up as fast if not faster than Lee. That's just not right.

    I doubt there's an answer to this. Sasuke trained and just got that fast. Still, even if that's what happened, it's definitely some BS. I could understand having a big burst of sprint speed to do Chidori, but to actually maintain speed on Lee's level throughout the fight is total BS with such little training time...

    Lee > Sasuke. Plotholes be damned...
     
  9. narutofangd Banned

    Messages:
    6,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Sorry about that i meant he emulated lee's speed with training. i should think and phrase my comments i guess.:sweatdrop
     
  10. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Poor Lee

    Yes..damn them to hell.

    It's all a part of the massive conspiracy against Lee, he is always getting his massive power made light of, first he fights the only person who could have beaten him at that point and then he gets his power massively dwarfed by Sasuke somehow owning Gaara? Total BS

    And now..when I go to put a Lee icon for this post, I find that there isn't one.
    wth
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2006
  11. Sho Active Member

    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    They already explained why he was able to do that:


    Answer: Because he's a genius.

    Sasuke demonstrates the same speed in his battle against Naruto in the VotE:
    Spoiler: pic


    ^Sasuke went from laying on the ground, far away from Naruto after being smashed into the statue by the KB chain, to moving so quickly to Naruto's side that he wasn't even able to react.


    He even uses it post-timeskip in chapter 307:
    Spoiler: pic


    ^He moved to Naruto's side in the blink of an eye, so fast no one was able to react.


    If you're asking why he didn't use that speed against Naruto on the roof-top battle, or against the Sound 4, it's because he was still recovering from his coma, and using that speed takes up alot of stamina (which Sasuke didn't have at the time.) He used that speed in the VotE as I've already shown, but obviously once Naruto went Kyuubified, Sasuke pretty much lost his speed advantage.
     
  12. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    "Beacuse he's a genius" is a BS cop-out...

    He had cursed seal power in the VotE battle, and I'm sure he trained between the Chuunin exam and then.

    And as for the after the 2-year jump, well DUH! I wouldn't expect any less...

    It's just that one part where he went from being slower than Lee to faster than him in a month..."genius" is not near good enough IMO to merit that change...
     
  13. Sho Active Member

    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    ^That's why Lee said he was "a genius that surpasses imagination". Because not many people could do that. Sasuke also has more potential than Itachi.

    And Sasuke wasn't using the cursed seal when he gave that display of speed in the VotE, so it was due to the speed he gained during the Chuunin exams.
     
  14. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    No one could do that, did you see the dents those two sets of leg weights left in the ring? If Sasuke put those on he wouldn't be able to move at all.
    The reason that weight training like that is frowned upon in all realistic views is because of the constant strain it puts on the muscles can lead to tearing...

    No...just...no...
    Itachi was a frickin ANBU leader by the time he was Sasuke's age, Sasuke couldn't even beat Naruto or Gaara on his own strength, he needed the power of a cursed seal.

    Sasuke definately seemed much stronger and faster after undergoing the whole "barrel roll" transformation. Even before going one seal, he was definately much more fierce when fighting Naruto.

    Yeah, I gotta agree with that...
    Two years of training would account for his speed, but not one month

    Saying he's a genius is such BS, being a genius doesn't affect their body's ability to develop.

    He pulled a straight up six-million-dollar man stunt with gaining that speed.
     
  15. Immortal-JyNxX New Member

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Ahhh! Since Sho stole all of my points I'll just say this. Sasuke did it cause main charcters do impossible things! Hell Naruto tricked Neji into a loss, when Neji could have killed him in a blink.

    Ya'know whats funny?

    Sauske + Good guys = Whinny chump I hated!

    Sasuke + Oro = I'm starting to like this guy...

    ~ditto~
     
  16. Sho Active Member

    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Tearing leads to growth of muscles. I thought this was obvious. :huh

    That's how people get stronger.

    Itachi was trained by his father and by the Uchiha clan. He was groomed from day one to be the clan head. Sasuke was never given that type of training by his family.

    When Sasuke is given one-on-one focused training, then he gains Lee's taijutsu, speed (which you claim is impossible), and learned lightning manipulation in 2 weeks.

    This is not counting Orochimaru's or Itachi's statements that Sasuke does have that potential.

    So yeah, I think Sasuke does have more potential than Itachi.

    Sasuke needed the cursed seal because both Naruto and Gaara were using a demon's own power inside of them.

    He was more fierce because he was trying to kill Naruto. Not because the barrel made him more powerful (besides gaining access to the CS2).

    Genius in this manga also include natural born ability and talent, and yes, talent DOES affect your body's ability to develop. Some bodies are capable of running as fast as 4.2 seconds in a 40 yard dash after a few months of training, yet most people would never even have the capability to complete a 4.6 second dash no matter how much training they do. This is because some bodies are naturally more talented than others.
     
  17. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    If Sasuke was training so hard physically to the point he was tearing muscles and crap, there's no way he would have had time to train AND heal before the exam...

    Pssssh. Sasuke < Itachi. The only reason he has any slight chance of ever going against his brother is because of Orochimaru's voodoo...

    Exactly. Does no one see a problem with this? There's just no way...

    Sasuke needed the cursed seal because Itachi is beyond everyone in that village's power, even Kakashi's...

    Errrr, proof? I'm gonna say the barrel definitely seemed to help...

    There are limits though onto what a body can do though. Developing speed is very different from developing techniques. When you put strain on your muscles it helps strengthen them over time but it should also be noted that consistant training can be detrimental as well. In this case if Sasuke ever pushed to far he wouldn't have time to recover. And even if he had the perfect body training your body simply cannot develop that drastically that fast.

    If his body was so genius, I don't see why he was so weak to begin with...
     
  18. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Yeah, but if you overwork them then they will begin to sprain and may even break the ligaments.

    You still haven't really addressed how he even trains at all given the way it took such a long amount of time for Lee, who trains constantly everyday even if there isn't a fight coming up. Sasuke still would have had to have gradually added weight in order to be able to move some level.
    Saying he is a geniuous is BS cop out.


    Itachi still is alot better.
    Sasuke is trained by Orochimaru everyday for two years, and Orochimaru still admits that neither he nor Sasuke could come close beating Itachi at that point.


    The speed is impossible (I think that's the entire point of this thread).
    It's just a bs plot hole against Lee.
    No one seems to realize the difference between Lee with weights on and off.

    And Sasuke didn't learn lightning manipulation, he just Sharingan'd Kakashi's move.


    Itachi clearly wants to be killed by Sasuke, that's why he keeps spurring him on instead just back smacking him to death. He could've killed him atleast ten times by now. Orochimaru has been afraid of Itachi since he was eleveen, while he just seems to want rape Sasuke even at the age of 15.

    Orochimaru just wants Sasuke's body and will say anything to get ahold of Sharingan.

    It wasn't just them who kicked his ass.
    He has lost basicly every fight he has fought in the series.
    Haku beat him, Orochimaru beat him, Gaara beat him, Naruto beat him, the sound four beat him, Naruto beats him and later ties him even after CS2....
    but this isn't the point.




    That makes no sense...
    He tried to kill him on top of the Hospital just a little while earlier and failed miserably, he had no such speed then either nor when he attack Itachi (If he had it then he definately would've used it.
    Talent cannot possibly affect body growth, there's nothing to even support that. Even if it did, that still wouldn't be enough to show why he became so much stronger.


    It's all just a bunch of BS...there is no way Sasuke could have possibly pulled it off.
     
  19. delirium thyme

    Messages:
    17,196
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    His Sharingan copied it. When he turned them on after the Rock Lee challenge, we find that both eyes have two tomoes. So his weren't exactly as crude as you think.



    If you notice, the shadow of Rock Lee is behind Sasuke showing that he did in fact copy it. The next page was already posted in this thread, but Lee himself says that the taijutsu Sasuke was using is "exactly like mine".

    But because of the lack of time to actually develope his body, he could only use it for a short amount of time. It's similar to me running a 6 minute mile now, and a 6 minute mile when I used to play sports. I could do it either way, it's just that now I'd collapse right after.

    The idea of the whole training wasn't so that he could be that fast ALL THE TIME. It was just so that when he needed to pull out the Chidori, he'd have enough speed for it to be useful.

    So training was done so that he could reach that speed. But lack of time doesn't allow him to sustain that speed.
     
  20. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    How could he copy what he didn't see? He didn't see Lee fight Gaara, and the only thing Lee did to him really was the Lotus kick...

    I think the shadow thing was to just help make the connection that he's using Lee-type taijitsu. I don't see how he copied it, it's probably more likely Kakashi has copied Gai and then taught Sasuke that...

    But he seemed to keep that speed through the whole fight...I'd understand if it was just during Chidori but...hell, he seemed slower while doing Chidori than when he was just fighting...

    Lack of endurance still doesn't quite explain the insane burst of speed he gains from such relatively small training...
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2006
  21. Naruto Jinchūriki Supporting Staff

    Messages:
    23,554
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Trophy Points:
    1,909
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    I think the last post (#19) pretty much takes the cake :X And as much as many ppl hate to admit, including myself, Sasuke has shown more potential than Itachi under the circumstances, so I believe he will grow stronger than him eventually. Also, I hated how Lee's performance was so quickly overshadowed by Sasuke's display of his copied taijutsu movements and hastly acquired speed. It didnt seem fair to me, but if thats how Kishimoto wanted it to be...
     
  22. Sasuke` Konoha no Kiiroi Senkō

    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Sasuke IS a genius. While Lee isnt. Sasuke is able to learn and master things much quicker. While lee cant, thus taking him the years. Sasuke has alot more potential than lee. He gained the speed through hard training as kakashi said. He is just able to master things alot quicker because he is a genuis shinobi. That type of speed uses alot of sasuke's stamina.. he doesnt need that type of speed against naruto or anyone else he fought after that battle.. and even if he did.. he knows naruto has alot more stamina than himself, this is why you never see him move that fast after that. Sasuke is a naturally quick character, not as quick as lee. But he is a speed character.
     
  23. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    I knew that, two tama sharingan is crude compared to three or higher.
    He obtained the second tama against Haku, along time before that.



    When, pray tell, did he Sharingan Lee's entire repetoire?
    He fought him for less than a few minutes, he got kicked once...that's it.
    More Plotholes.

    No, not really...
    This on a whole nother scale than any real life one could model.
    This would be more like you running a mile in six minutes in one day and then in less than a one a month later. It's like he gained two years of physical excercise in a month.

    Besides, the real thing is can he get faster by looking at some?
    No, or else Kakashi would be faster and stronger than Gai and there would be no rivalry there.


    He wasn't that fast when he did Chidori, so no...
    He was fast when he did Lee's teleportation like speed and hit Gaara in the face.

    And one second or three minutes, it doesn't matter how long his endurance was.
    He shouldn't have been able to go the fast at all, not from one month of training.

    How?
    That is the question...not what, not when, etc.

    The plothole is that there is no way to obtain that speed in one month.
    That's what I want explained and there is no explanation. Ya'll just love Sasuke way too much and don't think about the meaning of gaining two years of body development in a single month.

    Saying he's a genius or Sharingan doesn't explain it, those don't affect the body. Sasuke's body couldn't even keep up with his Sharingan when he fought Lee, so how does he go from that slow speed to Lee's greatness in a single month?

    Please stop bringing up the stupid word genius, it doesn't have anything to with this situation. It cannot help you get stronger any faster: body strength development speed != skill/intelligence.
     
  24. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    A) Lee is considered a genius in some ways...

    B) Being a genius I don't think has anything to do with body development...

    C) Despite his eyes being able to keep up with Lee, Sasuke couldn't even keep up with Lee while he had his weights on, and it didn't seem like he was trying very hard either. Going from that pitiful to being faster than Lee without his weights in a few weeks is BS. A human body, even a genius one, cannot make such a drastic change in such a short period of time...
     
  25. Sasuke` Konoha no Kiiroi Senkō

    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Yes he is considerd a genius of taijutsu or hard work.. which ever one suits you.

    Being a genius has alot to do with the bodies devolpment. If your mind is able to grasp the concept of a jutsu very easily.. then your body is able to take that concept and use it.. thus giving the genius a boost. (Keep in mind he trained he body to this speed to be able to cope with the effects of chidori)

    Sasuke's growth was great. But so was naruto's. Its just that sasuke can learn things easier and make things easier on himself to master.
     
  26. NinjaM ◥▶̸̱◀◤

    Messages:
    6,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    A) Agreed.

    B) Agreed, and I like that explanation. However, my and I think Goemon's point is simply that his muscles cannot physically grow to that level in such a short amount of time, especially in a way that he would be in perfect shape after the training.

    C) I don't think you can compare Sasuke and Naruto like that. Naruto has a demon latent within him. He does have the potential to grow by leaps and bounds at any given second, that's just the nature of having demonic power...
     
  27. Sasuke` Konoha no Kiiroi Senkō

    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Remember he cant control the kyuubi. He was the strongest genin at that stage. All im saying is that is growth was incredible.. just like sasuke's.
     
  28. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Lee is the genuis of hard work, he constantly trains while others are very lax.
    Throughout two years of training constantly, day in and out.

    Once again the word genius is a copout; if every genius could obtain this speed or some other bs ability in a single month, then Neiji would've been alot stronger in his fight, Kakashi and Itachi would be virtual "gods", the third wouldn't have died, etc....

    This ain't some technique, it's not learning, it's developing....


    No, it's just that Lee obtaining this speed in this amount of time is much, much more realistic.

    Sasuke's is bs...

    Potential has nothing to do with this situation and you don't know who has more potential, anyway.


    Explain how that training could have possibly been responsable for such an uber difference in ability from before and after.

    I cannot say enough that word doesn't belong here....
    It is never fully explained and has nothing to do with muscle growth.


    The stamina part actually makes sense for those fights. However, even if he didn't need it, it seems like you would still see something of that level of ability being reused over and over.

    He was alot slower than Haku and his body couldn't even keep up with a two tama Sharingan. He just seems faster because he's surrounded by slower people.

    As for this whole deal of stamina being used more quickly, he fought Gaara for several minutes at that speed, used Chidori and was not even winded...
    He was then confident enough to chase after the Sand Genin, I don't think it affects him near enough to merit that speed. He should have fallen down dead after that much work.

    Once again, let's not get of track the question is "How does he become so fast in one month"

    I have to agree with Shiron, it's just a plothole...

    Everyone says the same two words: "Sharingan" and "genuis"
    You're lying to yourself if you truely believe that Sasuke can observe something and mimic it, Sharingan cannot copy things that user cannot do, such as Bloodline limits or things that he cannot physically accomplish.
    "Genius" may very well affect his ability to learn how to mimic a movement (i.e. punch or kick), but his physical body cannot develop any quicker because of a single word.

    There are tons of people in the show who are called "genius" and none of them show any signs of any type of growth any where nearing par with this bs.
     
  29. Goemon_Musashi 9000!! NINE THOUSAAAAANDD!1

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    If he couldn't have controlled the kyuubi then he wouldn't have won the fight against Sasuke nor Neiji. Jiraiya enables him to control the Kyuubi chakra on some small level through the summoning jutsu. Also, if he is endangered, Kyuubi releases his strength to save Naruto in many cases.

    Everyone seems very adamant about this and I respect that, but I still think that neither of those reasons explain this.

    I think it's just something that they made to make one of the main characters look better by trying to dwarf those who seems much stronger...I just don't like the way Kishimoto went about this.

    Sorry, for the double posts btw. Didn't mean for that to happen
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2006
  30. Naruto_Rasengan Banned

    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    First of all when did Naruto defeat Sasuke? :huh

    Against Neji Naruto did use Kyuubi chakara, and he was completely in control, he even told kyuubi to give him power. Thanks to Jiraiya's training Naruto was able to become a force to be reckoned with.

    Naruto was in 100% control when he fought Neji, and against Gaara he was winning against a transformed Gaara, where as Naruto was still in his base form, not using a drop of Kyuubi chakara.

    Saying "if" Naruto couldn't use Kyuubi is the same as saying "If Sasuke didn't have the Sharingan...". The fact of the matter is that Naruto is the container of the Kyuubi, and it is quite possible his most valuable tool, so why the hell not use it? :huh

    The Sharingan is a tool that allows the user to see through an opponents actions and "mimic" or copy the moves, this is a great asset. When Sasuke first encountered Lee he was able to copy his speed, and containing the Sharingan and being a genius with the potential he has Sasuke was able to reach an extremely high level.

    You should stop arguing against the facts, it is quite pointless. :oh
     
Loading...