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Could've Nardo and Sauce surpass Hashi and EMS Madara without the Rikudou buff ?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by Cosmos, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    Both Tobirama and Orochimaru acknowledged Naruto and Sasuke during the war , in fact , way before thye defeat Obito as the Juubi Jinchuuriki .
    Tobirama said that Naruto could be even a better Hokage than his brother , and Orochimaru stated that he was positive that Sasuke will one day be the Shinobi who surpasses Madara (referring to EMS Madara of course)
    And then they met the sage and got their Rikudou powers (Rinnegan and six paths sage mode) and not only did they surpassed them but they turned them into fodders in comparison .
    The general consensus is that they were still inferior pre Rikudou buffs . Albeit Zetsu stated that they were already stronger , that's why they were able to meet the sage unlike the previous reincarnations .
    Anyway , it's a 50 % BSM Narudo and EMS Sauce . Discuss ...............
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  2. Hussain .

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    Obviously.

    Those who wank Hashirama & Asspulldara are simply way too delusional. Those 2 are like in their 60s (Hashi), 90s (Asspulldara)?
    while Naruto and Sasuke were only 17 and they have a long way to live and improve.

    Then the last came and showed us how extremely powerful they have become. For example, Sasuke's Chidori being able to destroy that meteor with one strike. Naruto being able to deal with Toneri with his BSM, and even deal with his sword that was able to cut the moon in half. Meanwhile, Asspulldara fanboys are still fapping over him cutting the tops of the mountains. :skully

    And then came Boruto the movie, and Naruto gave Bolt a Rassengan, in BASE, that was able to send Momoshiki to the freaking space and kill him. :lmao

    As you put it, both Hashirama and Asspulldara are nothing but fodders in comparison,
     
  3. Gunners .

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    Naruto did :tupac.
     
  4. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about their rikudou versions tho .....
     
  5. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    Naruto and Sasuke were definitely born with more talent. Madara was in his early 20's and still wasn't capable of using a legged Susano'o for instance. Sasuke had EMS for a matter of hours and accomplished what Madara couldn't, yet he was multiple years younger
     
  6. 1Person Active Member

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    Naruto solo'd 5 bijuu literally within 5 minutes of unlocking bm and completely change that tide of the war the same day he got kcm.

    What we saw sasuke do during the war was the same night he recovered from his eye transplant.

    30yo naruto and sasuke wouldve still been above hashi and mads even if hagoromo didnt boost them
     
  7. Kyu ~ █▬█ █ ▀█▀ ~

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    Yes, it was inevitable.

    In addition to earning endorsement from two of the most decorated individuals in the verse; Naruto/Sasuke were 16/17 years old respectively & weren't far off from their predecessors using powers they didn't have time to hone or expand (at least in Naruto's case). Hashirama/Madara hit their prime and had already been surpassed in certain aspects by these two kids.


    Anyone under the belief that Konoha's founders weren't going to be surpassed, had been setting themselves up for disappointment.
     
  8. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    He surpassed Madara, not so sure about Hashirama.
     
  9. Hussain .

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    :oldryoma

    :bookerskully
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  10. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Sasuke I don't think would have surpassed EMS Madara, perhaps he would improve- but it wouldn't be anything significant. Take Naruto at the end of part 2 vs Naruto in the Last. The latter is stronger but there was nothing significant to add that would change his tier; I'm comparing a part 2 Naruto with all the Bijuu within him including 100% Kurama vs his "The Last" counterpart.

    Stripping their EMS, Madara was still well above Sasuke with his monster Katon jutsu and all that. Adding their EMS you could say they were equalised, but Madara would still have access to the base abilities that put him above Sasuke.
    Taking the comments at face value, I would have to accept that Sasuke would someday surpass Madara (EMS), somehow. However considering the comment came from Orochimaru who was obsessed with Rikudou power and there were all these indications of Sasuke getting the Rinnegan, that could have just been a clever way of saying Sasuke would surpass Madara by getting a superior ocular power (the Rinnegan).

    Naruto is a tougher one to call. Hashirama literally has that one thing on him, being able to suppress Bijuu. However considering how he could use Sage powers and Kurama well you could say that Naruto actually would have a shot at surpassing Hashirama. Especially when you consider all that Naruto had access to.
    You can say Naruto, though it would be hard to see how KSM Naruto would concretely surpass Hashirama, you could definitely see the clear signs that he would be on his way to surpass Hashirama.

    Basically it would be easier to see Naruto surpass Hashirama (considering he'd have access to abilities like the toad song which he could enhance with Kurama's abilities) than it would be to see Sasuke surpass Madara.

    Though the story required them to surpass Hashirama and EMS Madara asap, so we got Rikudou powers.

    Also you misunderstood: Zetsu said if a transmigrant is strong enough, they'll be able to meet Hagoromo. Not they need to be stronger than the previous reincarnation.
     
  11. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    :skully
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
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  12. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    I know what Zetsu said . And why wasn't the previous reincarnations strong enuff to meet him ?
     
  13. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    So you guys think BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama, what a bunch of jokers...
     
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  14. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    Says the guy who thinks :
    - Rinne Sharingan Madara = Kaguya .
    - Dual Rinnegan Madara = prime Hagoromo .
    - uncontrolled JJ Obito = Momoshiki = adult BSM Naruto .
    Or my favorites :
    - SM Madara = Toneri .
    - Rinnegan sasuke = BM Naruto = uncontrolled JJ Obito
    - Vote Madara = Vote Hashirama .
    - 1 Rinnegan Madara + sage mode = 2 Rinnegan Madara ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  15. Zensuki (⌐■_■)–︻┻┳══━一

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    Eventually sure.
    Still would put EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke and of course SM Hashirama > Nardo
     
  16. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    Sorry, you triggered fam? And if you're going to reference my scaling, at least get it right, you've made a couple of mistakes.
     
  17. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    He's asking if he's upset you.

    I think Naruto and Sasuke were well on their way to surpassing Hashirama and Madara, but weren't quite there yet before they were gifted with power from Hagoromo.

    Very close, though—which is impressive considering their ages.
     
  18. Arles Celes The Psychologist

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    Maybe.

    Naruto without Six Path chakra but with 100% Kurama BSM would likely be quite stronger than Hashi. Especially after reaching his 20s or later.

    Sasuke with full EMS mastery plus maybe learning Dragon SM(which would be a fitting replacement for CS) would be stronger than Madara for sure especially in his 20s or later.

    Still, after uniting their powers BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke overcame Juubito who gained control over Juubi and became even stronger than when he was mindless...but still stated as stronger than Hashi. Then we may sorta argue about BZ statement of how only a strong enough transmigrant can meet Hagoromo and with neither Hashi nor Madz managing so...

    Madz and Hashi simply fully mastered what they got and they were much older than Naruto and Sasuke during the war. Naruto and Sasuke awakened BM/BSM and EMS the very day the war started.
     
  19. Orochibuto Well-Known Member

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    Naruto was going to have the 9 Bijuus anyway, and in The Last he fought moon cutting Toneri that used an eye hyped to be the counterpart of Rinnegan which also gave him a Juubi-like mode, all of this using nothing else but 100% Kurama.

    Of course he would surpass Hashirama.
     
  20. The Handsome Klad Itachi's Bishieness

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    I don't think so.

    Hashirama was able to enter sage mode whenever he wanted something that I've never seen Naruto or that their has been any allusion to. Second, Hashirama was strong enough to fight the Kurama+Madara with his one natural strength alone. This was the full power of Kurama and not that half crap. Naruto only had half of Kurama's power and if he some how got full, I don't think he would be stronger than Madara+Kurama because Madara is just to powerful.

    I don't Sasuke would've ever surpassed Madara even if he got Rinnegan. Madara's natural abilities seem to be far higher than his. I've never quite seen Sasuke make a firestyle as big as Madara and I don't think he has the natural talent for it.
    Itachi on the other hand.
     
  21. TatyanaUchiha 革命

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    ^This isn't about Itachi though..
     
  22. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Naruto could pretty much use Sennin Mode any time he wanted as soon as he found out he could use Senjutsu with his Bijū Mode. And there is a vast difference in the power that a Bijū can individually exhibit, and how it can be utilized through the technique of a Jinchūriki.

    And I think people should seriously think about what separated Sasuke and Madara's foundational skills, and what, out of Madara's repertoire of techniques were out of Sasuke's reach in the immediate, and far future. He had higher ranked Katon Ninjutsu, none of them seemed too powerful for Sasuke's level, and none could be said to be a match for what Sasuke could accomplish with Susanoo Kagutsuchi.

    Some of you are highly overestimating how wide the gap was between Naruto, Sasuke, and their predecessors.
     
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  23. Orochibuto Well-Known Member

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    Naruto with full Kyuubi is stronger than Tenseigan Toneri who is at least as strong as 2 Rinnegan Madara which is >>>>> EMS Madara with Kurama.
     
  24. CM Pope The Holy Father

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    Even though the whole concept of the "new surpassing the old" took some hits on a long enough timeline Naruto and Sasuke would both surpass Hashirama and Madara.

    As others have said Hashirama and Madara had already peaked and hit their prime whilst at the end of the series, not counting the Boruto stuff, Naruto and Sasuke were considerably younger and had the potential to keep going and eventually surpass their predecessors.

    Outside of his Rinnegan there wasn't too much that Madara showed which couldn't have been replicated or even bettered by Sasuke, if it hadn't been already. Similarly, whilst Hashirama is something of a taller order I do believe that Naruto could and would surpass him even with only half of Kurama to call upon.
     
  25. Csdabest O.Y.D. Chris Styles

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    Yes if kishi actually focused on Clan abilities instead of wanking Rikudo rinnegan. When the entered the war they were already near or on par with Maddy and Hashi
     
  26. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    This is the most accurate:

    SM Hashirama > BM+SM Naruto > BM Naruto = EMS Madara >> EMS Sasuke w/ Hypothetical PS > EMS Sasuke = KCM Naruto

    Even with PS, Sasuke was still a far cry from Madara.
    Madara's raw power/amount of Chakra simply eclipses Sasuke's, and the raw power/amount of Chakra one has, has a direct effect on the destructive capacity, scale and range of the users techniques.
    Madara's: speed, strength, katons and susano'o, were all on another level when compared to Sasuke. This is all due to Madara simply having a greater amount/strength of Chakra.

    If EMS Sasuke could manage PS on his own, it would likely be much smaller and far less potent than the PS Madara displayed against the 5 Kage.

    Sure if Sasuke didn't get additional power ups later on, with time and training, he would have eventually become as powerful if not power powerful than EMS Madara with just EMS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
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  27. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Never said they weren't. The fact Zetsu said that probably meant that some transmigrants met them though. However it seems that Hagoromo had to choose to meet said transmigrants too hence not all powerful transmigrants met him.
     
  28. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    Never said you did lol
    Hago himself said that he met many reincarnations over time .
    The fact that Naruto and Sauce were able to meet and not Hashi or Madara (during their natural life) says something .
    Zetsu statement implys that not every reincarnation could meet the sage , Naruto and Sauce were just strong enuff .
     
  29. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Or Naruto and Sasuke simply died at the same time which helped Hagoromo talk to both of them simultaneously.
     
  30. Cosmos Well-Known Member

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    That was never mentioned .
    I don't think met both reincarnations at the same time , always .
     

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