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Death of the Author? Is it really?

Discussion in 'Meta Battledome' started by Ramius, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. Ramius

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    I've seen this kind of thread before, but not exactly in-depth.

    I've been thinking about this for a while now, what kind of author statements/information would be considered valid and what kind of statements/information would be consider invalid?

    I figure it's rather difficult to word it, so I decided to be more specific and lay some examples:
    1. The author has written 2-3 works. Character A from series X has been fan-calced to be fighting/reacting at relativistic speeds. Statements comes from the author that character B from series Z can fight or even overwhelm character A without much difficulty. Character B from series Z hasn't got any specific calculations regarding his speed, but hasn't got anything exactly contradicting it either. It's not a multiverse, it's two separate works taking place in two completely different worlds.
    ........a) said statement was an answer in an interview
    ........b) said statement was a twitter answer to a fan-question
    ........c) said statement can be found on the author's website/blog/databook HE's written (without assistants/interference)

    2. Imagine the same, but DC/Durability. This is where things are more interesting. If character A from series X has been proven to have continent level DC/Durability and character B from series Z is somewhere around multi-city block. Case-by-case basis pops to your mind, doesn't it? We have then Nasu tomorrow going on about how Fate/ Servants can physically overwhelm Types or Ado Edem or whoever has higher durability than Servants' DC.

    Okay, another DC related question, I don't know, let's not go with HST, YYH's author comes with a databook where it says that the rock in demon world is 100 times more durable than in our world or Blame's author comes tomorrow with a databook stating that the megastructure can easily withstand planet-level energies. Great, isn't it? How would you look at it though?

    3. About Sci Fi vs Fantasy/series relying on "magic". Situation: we're given a weapon from a Sci Fi series. I'll pick a more known one, Angel's Arm. We're told in the databook or the author's blog or twitter that the Angel's arm can destroy a planet or even more and it moves at FTL speeds. Or we can have Blame's author saying that the GBE gun can actually destroy a star if properly used/charged and that it moves at FTL speeds in reality. Sci Fi is nice, right?

    Next thing we're given Saber's Excalibur from Fate/series and we're told that an Excalibur can destroy a planet too. Pretty damn inconsistent, isn't it? But sure, let me pick a relatively less liked series: tomorrow Oda states on his blog/website/twitter that Whitebeard can actually specifically destroy the planet/split it into half/whatever. Or that Luffy can pulverize a huge island, but he doesn't do that due to CIS issues.

    4. Downgrading characters. Fan calcs said character A from series X has moved at relativistic speeds in 2 instances, but otherwise hasn't got showings (calculated) lower than that. Character B form series Z has been shown constantly to move at low hypersonic speeds (and even lower) in hundreds of instances. Author (of the both series, that take place in separate worlds) comes and tells you that nope, character B is definitely faster than character A.

    same: twitter/interview/databook/blogs/author website.

    I can't think of any other more specific stuff, but this should suffice for now.
     
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  2. TehChron

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    Im actually interested in hearing peoples takes on this as well. :hmm

    Do we apply powerscaling consistent with the showings and the author statements? Discard them completely? Some kind of middle ground?
     
  3. MusubiKazesaru Moderator

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    I see it a lot in things like light novels where it mentions that they're fighting and moving at supersonic speeds, but they're calculated to be hypersonic here
     
  4. JustThisOne

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    You do realize that the definition of supersonic is ANY speed that is faster than sound. Even the speed of light is supersonic because it is faster than the speed of sound. Hypersonic just refers to speed faster than Mach 5.
     
  5. TehChron

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    You should,lurk more

    A lot more
     
  6. Tranquil Fury

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    Sometimes the author has no say, it's the company that owns the franchise which gets final say so what the author says may or may not be applicable. If company Star says show Boom is canon to show Zap but the creator of one or both says no, he'd still lose due to the company having the actual say.

    e.g
    Alan Moore did not like DC doing another Watchmen series but he has no claim on the canon of Watchmen as DC owns it.

    Gene Roddenberry has once said that a show is not Star Trek unless he's on it but the Franchise is owned by Paramount and CBS, so stuff that came after his death is still canon.

    In answer to the above if B is consistently moving at a certain speed then the claim that makes them relativistic or whatever seems suspect but if B has never displayed an upper limit then you could make a case. If B has shown an upper limit then yeah this is a huge jump which cannot be explained away unless characters at or below B's level operate at such level then powerscaling can apply to give the writer/author the leeway.

    Also unless author A worked on both fictions or is part of a company that has those two fiction, author A has no basis to claim that

    e.g GRRM has said Jamie Lannister from ASOIAF>Aragorn from LOTR this clearly cannot be accepted and is blatantly contradicted with actual feats.

    If Character A has travelled across the World really fast then that's going in massively hypersonic to relativistic range so the calc would be very accurate based on 97% canon evidence/info, if the author says A is just hypersonic then he/she is wrong and the feat/calc win. If it involves something dubious e.g A blitz B who is X speed so A is Y speed then the author can get the win depending on the case(it may be consistent for that character or not though I'd still go with a less dubious feat/calc instead if such existed).

    The fans are allowed to ignore the author/write sometimes but not always. Neither are infalliable.

    If nothing is contradicted then yes you could accept it. You could argue if something at that level exists or not in the verse to accept or reject it but this being some kind of super weapon you have some leeway as those are'nt scaleable like some power level(although you could argue if it's within the tech or magical capabilities of the race/character/whatever). I'm not sure if that was what you meant or not.

    It would be ignored not only because he's said otherwise more than once but because as mentioned some of those have WAY better feats, though generally some/most are featless. But yes I got your point. It's like that time Toriyama said Enel would require SSJ2 Goku to be beaten or something, it's wrong.

    Yoshiyuki Tomino of Gundam fame originally said Judau Astha was the strongest Newtype(calling him Newtype God) before changing his mind to Kamille Bidan, this is wrong based on their feats of raw power/psychic energy.

    Some writer could say Spiderman is around Hulk's level but that would clearly be wrong. This was your point basically.

    So things to take into account
    1. The Author's reliability
    2. Whether anything in canon supports or contradicts
    3. How much authority does the author have over a work
    4. Author bias towards certain characters be it like or hate of them
    5. How old the interview or statement is(things change over time)
    6. Whether it's a retcon or inconsistency
    7. Interprating what the author means

    Just because the author is wrong sometimes does not mean always(vice versa too). Just because we accept or reject something from one author does not mean we should do the same for another author as it's case by case basis. Kishimoto's databooks on how fast or strong some technique is are ignored for obvious reasons but if those databooks give info on hobbies, type of food a character likes or some history(not contradicted but not necessarily mentioned) then don't see why those can't be accepted though primary canon can still overwrite those.

    Like everything in fiction yes.
     
  7. Tranquil Fury

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    Oh another famous instance is people using some of George Lucas's older interviews to descredit the Star Wars EU, he has not only accepted it in some cases which contradict his previous stance(e.g saying he allowed the writers to explain how Anakin got his scar though he did chime in his own belief on what he felt could have) but various writers and employees have supported it as being in continuity outside what ifs and certain titles.

    Now we learn there will be either canon or non canon instead of levels of canon(which would not be done for non canon outside N canon where gameplay mechanics and such are non canon) so it still is, just some canon works may not be canon anymore. We'll have to wait and see on that.

    EDIT Oh and on twitter be careful of frauds impersonating others, make sure the account is verifiable as that of the writer or employee or whoever.
     
  8. Byrd

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    I agree with TF, the publisher is the one that usually dictates canon.... although I do believe it should be a study more into feats and claims when it comes down to Author statements... especially if the feat is very vague.

    This is especially true in video games.. looking at you Bayonetta
     
  9. Ramius

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    Let's assume the author worked on both fictions and has the rights, because if he didn't - then obviously it's very suspect and iffy.

    Nah, I was more referring to stuff like:
    Character A has got relativistic speed from some freefall/FPS/meteor calc, but only displayed that 1-2 times. Of course the "positive" feedback would tell you that sure, he is relativistic. Now character B on the other side has been constantly shown to be hypersonic at best, even with higher end feats. Then due to whatever the author says, we might have to decide whether to powerscale B to A or downscale A to B or just outright ignore it and pass it off as inconsistency.

    I was more or less drawing a line between Sci Fi and "magical" shit, whether we're more willing to trust Sci Fi authors' statements than fantasy series' authors or not. Sort of, which is more reliable than which, as a genre. Or do we not care at all? Because imo, Sci Fi series should definitely take an advantage in this regard.


    Thanks for the input though. I'm willing to see more opinions on this.
     
  10. willyvereb

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    Author's statement or otherwise, why would it matter?
    We have a mass of feats which we quantify and then we get the results.
    Claims and such are generally viewed with more scrutiny both for potentially being hyperboles and because an outlandish claim may make no sense in context.
    (Or might be needed to be interpreted a bit more liberately)

    And really, half of the questions raised here should be pretty damn obvious.
    I only answer one.
    If there's a character with relativistic feats and another with only hypersonic ones while the two apparently match speeds, we obviously take the higher one.
    This means by the sheer fact character B could match a relativistic opponent, he should have similar speed.
    Same works if it's established by Word of God, unless this gets contradicted but then powerscaling shouldn't be an issue to begin with.
    Seriously, why the hell you would even think of "downscaling"?
    With the same downwards logic I can just say that this or that character moves at subhuman speed. Because he also has such showings.
    Being compared to a character with better speed feats is technically an indirect feat in itself.
    So yeah.
    You guys make such a large fuss about a really simple thing.
     
  11. willyvereb

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    Another, very important note.
    Death of the Author doesn't mean we straight out ignore the author's words or intent.
    It means those are just merely one of the many pointers and evidences you can rely on.
    With "Death of the Author" style of approach, the writter's thoughts on his/her fictions are just one of the countless opinions.
    It can bear more weight than the ramblings of an uneducated random fanboy but that's it.
    They aren't absolute.

    In case of VS debating the author can be the source of power claims and a way to reason for various powerscaling instances.
     
  12. Raidou Kuzunoha

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    I'd be raising many eyebrows on the idea of Servants overwhelming Types.

    Extra Servants with MFW? Maybe, they have the chops.
     
  13. Tranquil Fury

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    Certain magic can be well explained/defined and certain sci fi stuff might as well be magic itself and can be unexplained. Case by case basis though but neither genre should get more leeway in the example you're going with. An author's statement is'nt scrutinised due to the genre before it's accepted or rejected.

    Generally though Sci fi is easier to calc since those generally follow scientific laws including some of the more advanced stuff.
     
  14. Katsuargi

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    I thought Author was generally not thrown out if nothing contradicted their statements?

    Using HST here, if Lulz Kubo said Bleach characters were Mach 10, we'd toss it because we have calcs to the contrary. If he said high tiers were currently Mach 500, wouldn't we likely take it because Bleach hasn't had a speed calc one way or another since SS and it'd be reasonable by this point?

    IE, if an Author's statement isn't contradicted by showings, and the Author's statement isn't otherwise batshit insane, it should be worth noting.
     
  15. willyvereb

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    That's exactly how we roll.
    We don't particularly ignore the author's statement or such.
    We just take it like any of the other feats and claims of power.
     
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