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Different Types of "Evil" in SS

Discussion in 'Society TV' started by Insipidipity, Nov 21, 2005.

  1. Insipidipity Ignostic Buddhist

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    So who and how would you classify different types of evil in Bleach?

    I'd say theres:
    Kenpachi - the crazy, chaotic neutral(not evil, but to some it seems that way)

    Mayuri - the mad scientist

    Gin - the mysterious evil

    Soi Fong/Byakuya - the lawful evil/neutral, for the most part they're not really evil so much as obedient to a fault.

    I'm not necessarily claiming these guys are "evil" but I'm just trying to classify them somehow, and it seems like if random people were asked "who's evil" out of the captains, different people would pick different ones of these based on their personal ideas of evil.
     
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  2. Tokio_no_Go Respect the Burden

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    To me, Mayuri by far. Hes done some unspeakable things, and enjoys it. Plus no value for human life and youve got a nice little coctail for evil psychopath.
     
  3. tripperdan99 Currently researching

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    I agree with tokio no go, if there's one that I would count as "best to get terminated" would be Mayuri with his maggot looking bankai. The way he treaded his vc, even though he "created her" was core revealing. Also his claims of 'experimenting'

    Yep, Mayuri is captain psycho, imho

    Classification of other 'evils' in SS. Well, that's interesting. Is the fireworks girl evil in the SS because she helped the rouge's? Gin is coming across evil especially the way he treated Rukia on her death walk to the execution and also how he went after the knocked out girl in the fight.

    Azien might be evil, even though he comes across as super nice and was killed.

    Too many turns in the road, my head is spinning now....

    td99
     
  4. Code Zoamelgustar

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    Well you could put Yamamoto with Soi Fong and Byakuya. As he too has his whole "justice" thing and even fought his favored students he's known for thousands of years for that reason when they merely saved someone from execution.

    Mayuri is not evil.. just misunderstood. (Well yeah I know he is...)
     
  5. Corwin Trained Stalemate Associate

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    I agree with your clasification :amuse
    Gin just likes torturing people psychologically :laugh
    I think Mayuri would be the "most" evil in all categories though.

    And are you getting those chaotic neutral from Neverwinter Nights or DnD? :blink
     
  6. Insipidipity Ignostic Buddhist

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    Actually from Baldur's gate, but that comes from DnD just like NWN....
     
  7. Thanatopsis123 Wanderer and slayer of Colossi

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    When has Gin done anything evil? He messed with Rukia's head when she was being taken to the execution grounds but that's it. And really, that was more mean than evil.
     
  8. tripperdan99 Currently researching

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    Not giving Gin the pass, he's twisted. Has too much fun messing with people to the point, imho, of killing them too. He seems cut out of the same cloth as Mayuri.

    td99
     
  9. Pipboy Now With 96% More Pip

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    There is a very interesting question here in this thread. Who is evil and what type of evil do they represent. Is it an absolute scale, does an evil action make you evil? Well thats a question for philosophers, but there are I guess two things to look at. Evil actions and evil intentions.

    An evil action is hard to classify, and evil intention even harder, but we can try. Evil is being selfish, doing something for one's own gratification at the expense of another. Alot of people are very selfish in Bleach, but not all of them have evil intent to their selfishness, furthermore both evil action and evil intention muist coicide for one to be considered evil, lets go down the list.

    Ichigo::
    For Evil: His fight with byakuya could be have been over from the moment it started, but instead he is dicking around trying to crush byakuya's pride. If he was really concerned about saving Rukia he would have given byakuya a crimson necktie and then gone on to hellp out renji.
    Against Evil: He is battling the system and killing a pawn of the system has no effect. One must make war againbst the system symbolically and by crushing byakuya he is demonstrating resolve and a determination to undo her conviction. Thus cannoppt be considered selfish.
    Ichigo's VErdict:: More selfless than selfish, not evil.

    Byakuya::
    For Evil: The stabbings, the lack of empathy, the trying to murder his own sister.... Wow if just taken as action, he is evil no doubt. He hasn't batted an eye at the heinous unfairness of the system once and has pretty much allowed things to reach the place they are at.
    Against Evil: Byakuya is all about duty, if it were not his duty he would be out helping his little sister. His selflessness is actually probably greater than ichigo, who could never put a higher ideal above his own relationships.
    Byakuya's verdict:: Selfless servitude to an unjust system. A pawn of evil he himself comes out smelling like a rose.

    Gin::
    For Evil: Well he is a jerk, and is constantly for his own pleasure inflicting suffering on others. While he doesn't do Grand Evil, unless he killed Aizen, in which case he does. His actions have been overly cruel and pointless. He didn't need Momo to suffer an emotional breakdown and try and kill her childhood friend. But he did. He didn't need to screw rukia's head, but he did.
    Against Evil: He seems to have real human empathy, somewher underneath it all. There are hints that he has a nice past with matsumoto so there might be a selfless motive behind his acts. however it hasn't been shown.
    Gin's Verdict:: Evil, his cruelty shows no reason beyond his own twisted gratification.

    Kenpatchi:
    For Evil: He lives to fight and kill, he has no compunctions about ending a life beyond the fact that killing a person would end his abilty to fight with them and inflict and take pain.
    Against Evil: He loves and cares for his division and his surrogate daughter yachiru. BUt is this enough?
    Kenpachi's Verdict:: Evil. His love of carnage motivates him beyond any other, and his relationships are all with those who serve as enablers for his selfish combat. Despite his reasonable relationships with those around him and a tendancy not to kill those he fights he still is motivated to hurt others by completely selfish desires, hooked into his near sexual enjoyment of batle.

    Mayuri:: Why bother?
    For evil: Hmmmmm, lemme think, he is a strak raving lunatic who's bizzare surgical torture emulates reflects and amplifys the dark arts of the Nazi war criminal mengle widely reknowned as the most evil human being ever to live. He creates life for the purpose fo abusing it and seems to think that life exists to serve him.
    Against Evil: Its for science?
    Mayuri's Verdict:: Evil, he is backed by soul society because he gets results, but what he does is not because he is told to by his passion for duty. Its because he gets his jimmies off by hurting women in particualr, humans in general. IF he was expunged from the womb of soul society, he would be a serial killer, with maybe serial rapist thrown in for good measure. In short if not for his talents, he would be put down like a mad dog.


    Oh and since we are all DnD nerds I'll spell out the evils in those terms.

    Ichigo: Chaotic Chaotic Good: Does good, respects no authority, but his own rebellion often carries him away destroying opportunites for real charity.

    Byakuya: Lawful Lawful Good: He does right, but only when its for the law, his zealousness in following authority drown out the basic goodnes of the man.

    Gin: Neutral Evil: respects no laws, is slippery as an eel and prefers to utilize others to get his dirty work done, but is not above doing it himself. He screams of a man who is willign do do anything to get what he wants.

    Kenpachi: Chaotic Chaotic Evil: Respects only strength, claims by strength betrays on a whim. Woot Chaos beats out evil by a slim margin.

    Mayuri: Lawful Evil+more evil: He works within the bounds of society squeezing out every single bit of evil juice he can. What a jackass.
     
  10. tripperdan99 Currently researching

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    Your assessment is Exceptional work, Pipboy.

    And I thought I was the recovering analytical

    td99
     
  11. Thanatopsis123 Wanderer and slayer of Colossi

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    How did he cause this emotional breakdown of Momo's? I also don't think he much tried to kill Hits either. He was defending himself.

    Seriously, I don't think anyone has sufficient evidence on Gin to proclaim him evil at this point. Then again, I'm an anime only guy.
     
  12. Alucard I'm a No-Life King in Despair

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    Hmm i can only think Mayuri is the real Evil here..although there is someone else who is more evil than him....
     
  13. Code Zoamelgustar

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    You would think his comments on the scene of Aizen's death would cause Hinamori to get quite mad. As he said, had Hitsugaya not stepped in, he would've probably killed her, even though it would be easy for a Captain to merely knock someone out as Gin in a way forced Hitsugaya to do to Hinamori. Then there's the fact that when fighting Hitsugaya, after he was being frozen he immediately tried to use his shikai on Hinamori who was laying on the ground not too far away, only to be stopped by Matsumoto. Or what about the time he walked up to Jidanbou and sliced off his arms? There were other ways to deal with that. That's not even counting the Rukia thing.

    I think it's evil enough to try to drive everyone crazy, kill them even when not neccessary, and dismember them when there are other ways to get by the situation.
     
  14. tripperdan99 Currently researching

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    Very good point Code and right on the money.

    Hey DemonAlucard, easy on the spoilers ok, I don't do manga att. Mayuri doesn't have the market cornered on evil for sure though.

    td99
     
  15. Thanatopsis123 Wanderer and slayer of Colossi

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    Perhaps we have different definitions of evil. Mine would be doing something morally and ethically reprehensible with full knowledge of said act being just so.

    I don't think Gin has done any such thing thus far. He's been a bit insensitive with his remarks but that's hardly evil. I don't think you can pin Hinamori's actions on Gin. I also don't think Gin's actions during the fight were anything but defensive.

    As for the bit with Jidanbou, well, I don't have the old episodes anymore so I don't really remember how that went. Granted he was harsh, but wasn't he just punishing Jidanbou for breaking the rules? I would think that's his right as a Captain.
     
  16. Code Zoamelgustar

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    There were other ways to avoid the fight or to defend himself than to attack a defensless person laying on the ground. There were other ways to punish someone for breaking the rules. Or do you think that taking someones arms off is just? There wasn't much to how it went, Gin arrives, uses his shikai and Jidanbou's arms flies off (in the manga) and Gin simply smiles. It's also obvioius that Hinamori could've been less stressed, same with Ruki,a had Gin not purposely pscyhologically attacked them. I don't think things have to be physical to be evil. Though Gin has done some bad things in that regards as mentioned above with his actions during the Hitsugaya fight and with Jidanbou.
     
  17. blazingshadow True Wind Rune

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    i can't really post anything meaningful without being deleted because of spoilers so i'll say this.

    all captains have some evil in them some more than others but they are not really any better than humans. ichigo is also partly evil but it's his story so he'll get over that.
     
  18. Thanatopsis123 Wanderer and slayer of Colossi

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    Well this stopped going anywhere. For now, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
     
  19. Insipidipity Ignostic Buddhist

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    I guess I shouldn't have used the word evil, but in a way, I used it because of its ambiguity. I could've said cruelty, but I think evil conjures up far more controversy because of that saying, "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist".
     
  20. Oneiricer Member

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    What do you mean by evil first of all? There is inherently no right or wrong, just different ways in which people determine MORAL or GOOD actions. The problem with Pipboy's analysis is that it is based on Pipboy's beliefs of correct or incorrect- and since everyone's views are different, one can say something is good where Pipboy cosiders it evil.
    (By the way, pipboy is from fallout 1 and 2?)

    So, instead of labelling them evil or not evil, im going to split them into 3 categories- the Utilitarian, The Egoist, and The Deontologist.

    Utilitarian- This person considers an action is good if it achieves the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Example:

    HITSUAYGA
    UKITAKE
    ICHIGO


    Deontologist: Believes that the rights of people are absolute. This includes the right of HUMANS not being able to accept SHINIGAMI powers. Thus Rukia would not be in this category as she broke this "right". Note, Deontologists don't debate whether the right is "good" or bad. i.e. they don't EVER debate whether freedom of speech or "do not kill fellow human beings" are wrong. Basically, this is the rule-following people and includes:

    Byakuga,
    Captain Commander,
    Soi Fong, etc.


    The Egoist: Determines actions that are correct based on the consequences for the individual.

    Myuri
    Kenpachi



    So for example, a lot of people have betrayed their "duty" to Soul Society for helping Rukia's execution, thus causing such strong reactions in Byakugua and Captain Commander. But these people believe that they are acting under the belief that it is better for the whole of soul society for these rules to change.

    Who's correct? There's no right or wrong answer, and i would say most people believe in the utilitarian approach and because of the view point the whole anime is set up in.
     
  21. chakra25 Hollow Hunter

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    Kenpachi - is a selfish kind of evil. He lives only to fulfill his pleasure - fight. He won't hesitate to kill.

    Mayuri - is the evil in a moral sense. He captures his enemies and use them for research and torcher. To top it off, his "daughter" is the result of his experiments. He treats his daughter like crap because she is a thing that can be created from scratch.

    Gin - is not yet evil to me. I haven't seen him do anything that makes him evil. I don't read the manga so who knows? The only f'd up thing he did was toy with Rukia's emotion.

    Soi Fong/Byakuya - aren't evil. They are just very strict and live their life by the code. You can expect harsh punishment if you break the rule of SS... they won't give any exeptions. They won't show any emotions for their sense of justice. They are hardcore "enforcers".
     
  22. Negative-Ion Life is BRUTAL!!

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    ooh man wait till next episode,
    ehheeh
     
  23. Insipidipity Ignostic Buddhist

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    Sorry, like I stated in the post above, I probably shouldn't have used the word evil.

    To me "evil" has 2 bases: Logic and priorities. Acting most rationally(not just simple robot logic, but taking into account factors far beyond that) is generally considered an absolute measure, yet its hard to determine that without intense argumentation, the second type is priorities, which is completely personal but what most people people use as their basis for evil. Despite most actions being generally(in fact almost exclusively) benevolent from the viewpoint of the person doing the action, others may see it as irrationality since its working to benefit something less "utilitarian" by their standards(the greatest good being perceived as that which they believe most important.

    So anyways, what I was really trying to get at wasn't really "who's evil", but more along the lines of "Who's priorities line up with yours the most".
    Those whose priorities are knowledge in all its forms, would probably not see Orochimaru or Mayuri as evil as say Kenpachi or Itachi. Those whose greatest priority is Order, would see chaotic factors such as Kenpachi as more evil than Soi Fong or Byakuya. Those who value personal relations most on the other hand would see Kenpachi and the Ryoka as less evil than Byakuya who has no use for such things. Those who view personal justice as more important than justice of the world would see Ukitake as less evil than Yama-jii. Those who value life the most would probably see those less willing to kill as the least evil, regardless of their other actions, such as Tousen. Then theres other factors like loyalty and determination.

    Personally I find Kubo Tite to have done an excellent job in giving everyone different priorities in Bleach so theres no absolute evil(even Hollows could be argued to be non-Evil, not necessarily benevolent, but at least justified)

    Anyways, just explaining the true purpose of this thread.
     
  24. Kayo ?

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    Everyone is evil :(
     
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