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Discussion on Spiritual Energy (Ki, C'hi, Holy spirit, etc.)

Discussion in 'Philosophical Forum' started by Ronin_Musashi, Jan 6, 2005.

  1. Ronin_Musashi

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    Let's discuss the concept of Spiritual Energy, whether it exists and if it does, what properties does it have? By Spiritual Energy I mean the concept of an invisible energy force or will; It is called Ki by the Japanese, which comes from the Chinese C'hi. One could also translated into the Christian concept of The Holy Spirit. Basically do you think that there is some sort of energy (or being/will) that is contained in all things and/or can cause changes (whether they can be seen or not) in the physical world, and what kind of characteristics does it have?

    I believe in a combination of Western and Eastern philosophies on this. I believe in the meridian/chakra/ki systems prevalent in many Eastern philosophies and religions, and that they are an integrated part of the organs and other biological functions found in Western medicine. Also I believe that this energy can be manipulated by humans and used in conjunction with the body. I believe this because it feels right to me, and because I have indirectly witnessed this kind of energy being used in my martial arts classes.

    This particular question is not a religious one, it is more of a spiritual one. And because no one knows what the truth is in this case, I don't want anyone bashing on other ppls believes. Civilized debates are okay of course :p
     
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  2. Squirrel King

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    I want to beleive in it.. but I don't. I beleive if the mind is willing.. the body can do ALOT more than what is considered normal now. I really beleive that if people really put their mind to it, they can enhance their healing, their health, etc. You may call something like this some sort of energy, and controll of it. I dunno..But that's all I really beleive about this subject... if you even consider it related.
     
  3. Rurouni

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    I do believe in the Ki/Chi thing. It's just that now in this day and age, human kind is too ignorant to be able to use their spiritual energy to do such things.
     
  4. Yukimura

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    I shall try to enhance my spiritual power by mysterious means, then I will report to you the results in a month.
     
  5. hikari_tennyo

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    I'm not so sure how "spiritual" this is, but scientists have been able to measure the EM field around a person, and have proven that some ppl can generate more and manipulate it...
    It's just lesser known science... Who would really want to believe that? (as in common knowledge)
     
  6. Garson007

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    I believe in "Mind over matter". No more no less. I don't believe in a spiritual world. Nothing happens with a purpose, except if coordinated by Mother Nature. Mother Nature works in mysterious ways. It is all chaos and we can never stop the chaos from spreading...
     
  7. Arilou

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    I have yet to see conclusive proof that meets scientific criteria for the paranormal.

    That does not mean it does not exist, but until further proof surfaces I will ignore it's existence.
     
  8. gakidou

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    i've been taking chinese martial arts for 5 years now, and i'm yet to attain this "chi"/"ki"... of course 5 years isn't enough to attain it, it's said to take about half a lifetime... but anyways... firstly i wanna note you shouldn't group the holy spirit with chi/ki because they are quite different... the holy spirit would be religous, whereas chi/ki have nothing to do with a god.

    Do i believe it exists? Currently i don't have a confident opinion of it yet... it's said that the source of power comes from the abdominal area and from there it travels throughout the body. But only when your muscles are relaxed can chi flow, because force stops the flow of chi. It's true you get a difference in performance for martial arts when you begin to understand this idea. But that doesn't mean it's because of the chi...
    i speclate that it's more of an analogy or a guide to be able to achieve certian feats like attacking internal organs so it's easier to understand the idea/feel of it.
    it's like drunken fist saying to drink "spirit" to gain strength... you're not really drinking anything, but you're imagining it, and it helps you feel as if you have more strength.

    there are two schools of martial arts in ancient/current china: Shaolin (Drunken fist/hard) and Wu Dang (Tai chi/soft). Shaolin focuses on external strength (ie. rock lee), and Wu Dang focuses on internal strength (ie. neji)
    If you watch actions of both styles (not in anime, but in real life), you'll note that people from Wu Dang move in an awkward way, but you'll also note, they're movements are soft, relaxed, yet have extremely powerful bursts of energy. This burst of energy is supposedly caused by the burst of chi, but like i said above... i think it's just a unique efficient way to exert power

    bleh.. that sounded somewhat unclear... but i hope you get the idea
     
  9. hikari_tennyo

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    Well, the whole God, no God thing is all perspective. some ppl attribute the energy to a diety, others do not. Some ppl are born with greater capacity than others, and some may manifest without training.
    Typically in old-fashioned Christian society, if anyone showed potential, they were "convinced" to join the church. If they chose not to join, they were labelled "heretic" and "evil, of the devil". So the "holy spirit" can mean a simply different way of focussing the same energies.

    Hence, the martial arts use it for fighting, and others use it for "Spiritual" things. (like faith healing, etc.)
     
  10. Ronin_Musashi

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    True; one is spiritual and the other religious. But I wanted to show religious people that you can be religious and spiritual, and allow them to interpret spiritual energy the way they wanted to. I myself am a Christian, btw.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2005
  11. Hyuuga_X

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    for more information about energy (Chi, Ki, Prana) and Chakra and some other things you can visit this site. It's not realy much about Ki but more things like opening ur chakra ways by meditation and stuff...
     
  12. Ronin_Musashi

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    Thanks for giving a link to that site! I found it very informative. It's exactly what I was thinking of when I said Spiritual Energy. *one rep point 4 u
     
  13. poona

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    The chinese art of chi-gong is very interesting, i saw an old guy move a bus with a rope attached to his penis. They say its some kind of energy source from the universe.
     
  14. Eeky

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    I believe in God, The Father, The Son and In the Holy Spirit.
    Amen.

    -Kris
     
  15. Kevinthewiseone

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    I am glad that we are having this disscussion i might of already mentioned this before on other boards. What i belive is in Chakara which is the seven power centers in our body like that episode with Rock Lee but only to a certain extent meaning that if you are trained and able to use the power you could use it to give you extra strenth to when a battle or do heavy leaftring your give you greater thinking power and the such. I also belive that we can affect phyical objects in our wourld by using this energy that we all have and if you trained enogh make it visible like naruto but that would take many a year and many of us probbaly could not devote all their time to doing such amazing works.. I know if i could i would

    Ok anyways thats what i belive
     
  16. liminosse

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    I am a strong believer... I train myself and focus my energies all the time, though I can't do anything special... i jumped a car battery with it a few times but i don't beleive its spritial, though i believe in God i don't think the internal energies of living beings are their sprits. I think theres something deeper there... maybe thats why most can't feel it, their looking in the wrong place, training in the wrong manner.

    When i focus my energy I still have trouble moving it to my hands... i can feel it all through my torso and neck, sometimes even arms but rarely have i been able to push it through my fingers, however maybe thats the proble, maybe im trying to hard, hmmm

    it feels like to me, a constent cool chill moving through my nervous system, maybe thats how enegry moves around in your body or maybe it has its own pathways but i do know if I focus it too long i get very short of breath and become drozey, although a couple cases when i worked on it all day i couldn't sleep that night for the intense pain in my abdominal area, don't know if it had anything to do with that, but maybe i stressed my enegry to a limit... maybe i just didn't feel well i don't know

    Maybe the energies we strive for are the elctrical currents that constently flow through the our bodies and the air...

    it seems to be easier to focus on the exhalation of air... then again maybe i've gone the wrong route but its one of my lifes quest to find out.

    Many times i've had dreams where i could fly, only when i had to take in air to breath i would glide towards the ground as though i couldn't stay in the air, every morning after a dream like that i could remember vividly the feeling i had when i used my energy to raise off the ground, I could remeber every detail, i can't do that with other dreams, when i wake, a few hours pass and they are forgotten, maybe its just a dream, or maybe my brain is trying to find a way to break the barrier that seems to damn up my energy and i try to force it out of my body.

    You may not believe what im saying and thats fine but i just felt that i should try to explain how I think it works, maybe... even if one person out of all those who reads it understands and can discover something new about this then this post wouldn't have been a total waste, now this has got me all pumped up think i'll go waste some chi... then agian the character i associate myself most with in naruto is shikramaru... im so damn lazy yet i know something has to be done or this knowledge is going to go to waste, even if its not that useful...

    goodluck and happy training!!
     
  17. mrberns

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    For the last ten years or so I've been reading the Tao Te Ching regularlly, and I belive that the entire universe is a force that interacts with itself at all times and flows through all things. This force is present within each person, and can be acted upon in many different ways. Im not sure if it can be used physically as power as many people point out with things like chi or ki, but i do think it is in itself powerful. I mean heck its everything. Anyways just a little Daoist perspective for y'all.
     
  18. Ronin_Musashi

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    I'm glad that you have strong beliefs in this area Eeky; maybe you could share some of them with us. For example, do you believe that the Holy Spirit can come into a person and give them a kind of state of grace? Expand on it a little bit. This was intended to be a discussion thread. Personally I find that Christian Theology and metaphysical theology can be quite similar in some areas.
    That sounds pretty special to me liminosse :smile-big. I can't do that, even with the Aikido classes I'm currently taking!
     
  19. Gunshin

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    cardiovascular fitness + a fit body with no "pretty muscles" to waste oxygen with > Chi ^_^
     
  20. liminosse

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    akido is a very good martial art to learn about your ki in though, i have a friend whos in it and his master old master could move stuff with his ki, really amazing stuff, hes been working on a special harm touch lately, he touched my friends masters arm lightly and nothing happened although the next day he had two spots that looked like bad spots on a roten peach or something on his arm and he claimed it hurt like hell the next day... so i dont see throwing a little juice into a battery to get the alternator going as a big thing :)

    also like its explained in naruto energy comes not only from the sprit or the body but both so a well trained cardio and fit body would make one better with thir ki i would think, ... maybe i need to quit smoking and start running again... study bruce lees fighting method vol2 basic training , it has some great ideas about the use of energy ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  21. laorquidia

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    I beleive that there is ki/chakra, etc. I do bikram's yoga, where they heat the room to 105oF and from that I've learned that you can control your energy through meditation. Your body is exhausted, at times dehydrated, but if you will it, you can make it do many things. I think this energy that you dig into find is that spiritual energy. Conservation of energy would state that energy you put out has to equal the energy you put in, so it must come from something - spiritual or real....
     
  22. liminosse

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    heres a question, if we don't have energy flowing through us, driving us, why do we have to sleep?
     
  23. Exerzet

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    I believe that spiritual power do exist.
    Not only because it feels right to me, but also because i have seen and felt proof of it.
    My friends brother actualy proved to me it existed, by making steel as soft as cloth with his touch.
    All he did was to hold it, and focus, and viola! it turned into that state.

    I have also had some experiences with ti myself, and noticed a test that ppl can take to find out if they are able to use it. It's quite a simple test to.
     
  24. Gunshin

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    Well- i'm going to say this fully accepting that theres a 99% chance noone will believe me, but i'm going to give it a try to maybe prevent someone from getting a serious ass beating someday when you attempt to throw a chi fireball at a 360lb black man named Dante and he breaks your neck and steals your shoes.

    I have trained Aikido. I have trained three different forms of Karate. I have trained in Gung-fu. I have trained in many Martial Arts. I started with Shotokan Karate and got a black belt at 12. I'm going to fast forward into my time in Aikido which was about 17. At thay point I was already a black belt in shotokan and kyokushin. I was also boxing and fought in several small smokers and had just began muay thai. I was also a white belt at Gracie Jiu Jitsu. (other notes- i studied kung fu at hoover chan's wing chun kung fu academy in oakland ca/different story another time). Back to Aikido. When I first entered the Dojo the first thing I noticed was that they do not spar full contact... or not even half contact. They do not do "resistance training" because the techniques are too *cough* deadly. The first couple of weeks I played a long. We had some odd excersises and we were talk some basic wrist locks and etc.. Anyways- one day I had an argument with a 260lb man (black belt) who was claiming that size is not a factor in a fight. Why? Because the power of "ki" balances everything out. He also mentioned smaller guys having speed. It ended up with all sorts of ugly. He wanted me to spar with one of the black belt females. He said it would end up with her tossing me (a white belt) around even though she only weighs 110lbs. I accepted the challenge. How did it end up? I shot a single leg takedowd, took her to the ground, and did a amateur text book armbar from the mount. He said somthing like "if she got a hold of me... blah blah" so this time I gave her my wrist for free. How'd it end up? I resisted. I outmuscled her by pulling her towards me. I clinched her head with my forearms at the side of her head, if I wanted to I could have kneed the shit out of her. After that he said some BS (don't remember exactly) but it ended up with me saying somthing like "yeah right, do you really think you can grab me so easily?" Anyways, he couldn't grab my jab and it hit him in the face. (not the point)

    POINT - I know theres a gigantic chance you won't believe me. Either that or you'll say "it was a bad school" or "the people sucked" but I have expierienced these things from many schools America AND Japan (so don't give me that "American schools are shitty excuse"). PLEASE, for the sake of god and your own life, don't believe that "ki" will PHYSICALY give you superpowers to win a fight. I've disprooven the "KI" being able to use magicaly theory time and time again. The reason this stuff really bothers me is because this Aikido student got killed in California when he tried to disarm a robber who broken into his house. His roomate said that he tried to grab the gunmans wrist and disarm the gun which resulted with the gunman (described as the bigger man) throwing him to the ground and shooting him in the head. TV and Movies has instilled a false vision of how fighting works, and many people believe this garbage created by holywood and movie studios.

    SO BEFORE YOU THINK I'M A CRAZY HATER...

    Look into the times news investigators looked into the use of "KI" in a fight. Try FOX NEWS coverage of Dim Mak practioner Dillman.

    PS. I believe in spirit. You can call it chi, ki, or whatever. BUT- Its not somthing you can physicaly use in combat. You can't throw kamehameha. A 105lb girl cannot use chi to throw a 210lb man of muscle who is resisting her. It's BS.
     
  25. liminosse

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    really so watching a 160lb man flip a pickup over in one heft must be spirit, or watching my father, 180lb tops pull the engine out of that pickup with his bare hands... one handed? sprite, hey bro you want to feel the opower, this ain't a challange to fight, just to see the power... come to 341a edwards richmond kentucky, i'll let you touch the "magic power"

    Ki only balances everything if you know how to use it, that aside im not gonna say the chick you sparred with sucked or the dojo, all akido stinks, the master of it here told me that himself, he said himself it would lose in a mixed martial arts comp. that it was made to go aginst the average person throwing a wild attack, then agianif you don't beleive to tend to close your eyes to it anyway, you have to want to believe before you can see things amazing happen, before you will look for them to happen

    i've never took a martial art, they are to slow for my taste, one class a week ,COME ON PLEASE!~! yet i know in a real combat situation, i couldn't be beaten, i've trainned my body and mind since i was 7 by myself, 5 years ago i stopped trainning my body but started doing my mind more intensely, why can't i lose in a combat situation? becaue i dont like to fight and the only time i would is to protect an important person to me, or to protect my or one of those persons dreams, when a person fights that way, they can't be beat, even by mike tyson, people around here have something that has become forgein to most the world anymore, ... its called... heart
     
  26. Ronin_Musashi

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    That's odd, my experience with aikido has been pretty good. I would say that you probably should take another martial art first so that you understand some of the movements and techniques better (after all, the founder of aikido, O-sensei, was a kenjutsu master). I remember when I first went to an aikido dojo a couple of years ago. I was a black belt in Matsumura Shorin-Ryu Karate (that's an Okinawan style), and had just moved to Seattle. The thing that I remember about the class the most was how incredibly efficient every movement and technique was. When you study a martial art for a long time, you start to understand the basic concepts of not wasting movement and maximizing the effectiveness of your techniques. Any ways, I decided to take classes there and came face to face with spiritual energy in combat. I (a 180 lb. guy who's probably of average strength) was taken down by an 85 year old woman who could barely sit down correctly and was probably 100 lbs soaking wet. Now I'm not saying that you don't need strength in combat. No matter how effective your techniques are, it's going to take alot more strength to take down a 260lb guy than a 100lb woman. What I have found though, is that every old person that I have met that practices a martial art can usually take down much younger and stronger men. My former karate sensei, who was about 50 at the time, once took down a 30 year old tough-as-nails ex-Marine with one hand after the man insulted a technique we were practicing. Certainly some form of ki was used here, but I have found that even those who train extensively in ki development generally cannot use this power until they become much older and more experienced.
    I would recommend reading for more information on Ki in combat situations.
    Interesting. So you met Morihei Ueshiba who established Aikido in 1920 and died in 1969, 12 years before you were born (according to your profile)??? And how are you qualified to make judgements on Aikido if you haven't even taken a single martial art yourself? Oh, and also, since Aikido doesn't involve striking the opponent, yeah, it would lose in a mixed martial arts competition; which involves STRIKING an opponent to score a point. But the point of Aikido is to defeat your opponent before you strike a blow; not that you would understand that philosophy.
     
  27. liminosse

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    did i say i met him? i said the master of it here, akido isn't ment for fighting its for self defense, least thats what i get out of it, just because i don't take akido don't mean i don't study it and talk to people who teach it and learn it, after all part of trainning the mind is study. Gunshin was talking about taking down a black belt in akido being a whitebelt himself, the point i was trying to make is that akido isn't ment for head to head martial arts combat, its more of a defensive style to accompany your offensive style... maybe not but thats the way i see it. didn't mean to insult if thats the way it seems, i was being sarcastic when i said all akido stinks
     
  28. Gunshin

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    I never said all Aikido sucks or stinks. I specificaly said theres no such thing as using Ki physicaly. You can't shoot fireballs, you can't use it to throw a 360lb man from one side of the room to the other. If I was merely bashing Aikido, I wouldn't have studied it. Reading and comprehension.

    BTW-Being open minded doesn't always mean believing somthing. Sometimes being opened minded means to try not to believe in somthing and see both sides of the coin. That kid did get shot in the head trying to disarm a robber who had no intention of shooting him. I consider that a consequence of believing a force that will not help you in a combat situation. Does Ki exist? Yes, I believe it does. BUT it's not somthing you can use. You can mention all these parlor tricks scam artist have used to prove it can be used, but until some legitimate researchers have looked into it and said: "Yup, this man can throw a CHI fireball, and theres no science behind it" or "This 110lb woman can throw this 360lb buff mass of muscle who is "RESISTING HER AND TRYING TO HIT HER with the power of Chi". NO. And its dangerous and irresponsible to give people false confidence in a power that will not save their asses in a deadly situation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2005
  29. Gunshin

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    Thats way to melodramatic. You're watching way too many cartoons and playing way too much videogames.
     
  30. liminosse

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    heh, i doubt that, i've been like that since before i started watching anime... maybe the mike tson thing is a little much, but oviously i was right, you don't know what "heart" is, lemme ask you this, what would you do, if you were tied to chair being made to watch your own mother be raped knowing they had intentions of killing her when they finished having their way?
     
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