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Dragon Ball Super Feats #3

Discussion in 'Meta-Battledome' started by Reznor, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. SSBMonado Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because we totally need to have feats reaffirmed in an arbitrary interval in order to maintain the characters' stats. Which is why we have Cell saga characters at mountain level since there's no indication that they are still star level. Oh wait

    No, half the "inconsistencies" arise from people for some reason being unwilling to give characters upgrades. I don't get why sudden power jumps are such a big deal now of all times. Between EoDB to BoZ Goku and Piccolo went from "putting all my juice into one island level attack" to casual moon level. And from there, Goku took 1 year, 2 training sessions and 2 zenkai boosts to get from casual moon to casual star level.

    Getting ludicrous gains from minimal or off-screen efforts is nothing new to DB, yet we don't have people bitch about those previous instances
     
  2. Drake3513 Member

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    I
    just made a post explaining, please read before complaining.
     
  3. SuperSaiyaMan12 The Seventh Hokage's arrived.

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    During the sparring match with Whis, while still in base? Whis saw the power of Super Saiyan God behind Goku's attacks. Flat out shown.
    False. He destroyed Beerus' attack with a punch even after being forced out of Super Saiyan. Beerus himself said he retained the power, not the form.
    Not to the levels without it.
    They had reached a wall at that point. Goku was tanking several of Hit's attacks in base and had managed to damage him.
    Its not the same fucking thing at all. You;'re just trying to downplay.
    If you think their base forms, without being at least as strong as BoG Super Saiyan God, could defeat fucking SSJ3 Gotenks, hell no-sell his attacks and practically treat him as a nuisance, you have to be kidding me.

    Training with Whis ALONE wouldn't have given their base forms that big of a jump WITHOUT it already being on the level of Super Saiyan God from the Battle of Gods Arc.
     
  4. SSBMonado Well-Known Member

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    No, he barely mustered up enough strength because he was a tad winded after getting his shit pushed in by a god of destruction. The mere fact that he succeeded at all is proof that he got STRONGER throughout the fight, not weaker.

    So you're trying to say base forms don't have god ki any more but are universal anyways? Seems like a pointless distinction to me.

    Hit mopped the floor with Blue Vegeta without a hint of effort, meaning he was universal from the start. The fact Goku was able to inflict ANY damage at all and not get bodied in half a micro instant means he's universal as well.

    > a supposedly solar system level character scratching a universe buster
    Yeah, right. If the difference between base Goku and Hit were anywhere close to what you're suggesting, he should have broken his knuckles on Hit's face.

    Ignoring that Beerus was heavily suppressing himself, the difference between BoG SSJG Goku and a full power Beerus is a factor of maybe a couple hundred. The difference between solar system and universe level (which again, you are suggesting was the difference between base Goku and Hit) is a factor of billions upon billions.

    Stronger? Sure. Stronger by a factor of several billions? Hell no[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
  5. Drake3513 Member

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    Literally the post before monado was talking about how big jumps in power is nothing new and now you are complaining because i said the samething
     
  6. Drake3513 Member

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    g
    oku straight up says hit isnt that strong physically and the only reason his blows were doing so much damage was because of his pin point precision
    And writers dont care about the difference between solar system level and universe level.
    Its time to consider thekid buu feat of db kai, where he destroys a galaxy.
     
  7. SuperSaiyaMan12 The Seventh Hokage's arrived.

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    No, you're basically downplaying the feats when SSBMonado was speaking IN FAVOR of base Goku being universal and being stronger than his Battle of Gods SSJG form.
     
  8. SSBMonado Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that punch that floored Vegeta sure had a lot of precision behind it. You can practically see the surgical efficiency of the attack, what with Hit's arm being burried elbow-deep in Vegeta's gut and everything.

    Goku's comment obviously referred to Hit's initial attacks, where he used one bent finger for his attacks. And again, if Hit didn't start out in god tier, then all the precision in the world wouldn't have allowed him to do damage to Blue Vegeta at all.

    And your point is...?

    Oh and need I remind you of Goku's second fight against Beerus? Goku was only in base form yet Beerus got visibly fired up during the fight, which was confirmed by Whis as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  9. Unlucky13 Member

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    As if the sense of scaling doesn't get wonky enough. If the census is that during the beginning of DBS that Goku can destroy a universe in base form due to his fight with Beerus and has only gotten stronger since than (SSB, SBBxKK, and UI) than people keep on tacking the '+' sign so that it looks like
    Goku DC: Universal++++ (but still not multiversal, just cause you know) Things being to look really weird.

    Other general census revolves around the GODs being casually universal, and the GPs and above being above that casual Universal shit. The generally irrefutable character for DBS who is multiversal is Zeno no duh due to his feats but so far he is the only one to hit the multiverse scale.

    So than characters that are able to give Goku or people around his level a good fight are agreed upon Universal due to him being Universal. On that list already was people like Piccolo, Gohan, 17, ect...and now the main issue is trying to add other people like 18, Krillen, and Roshi. The crux of the issue looks seems to revolve around handing out improper scaling all willy nilly. Some say it's downplay, some say it's wank, arguments are had and life goes on.

    I'm really glad that after surfing through different fictional versus sites that stuff like this is never general agreed upon because too many perspectives and opinions come into play. As much as I started out this whole "fictional versus debate" hobby on the OBD, expanding ones view points was a good thing.

    In the end though I'm glad you guys can debate and talk it out like respectable gentlemen of society. A shining beacon of high ethics and morals.
     
  10. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    I mean, I'll give you that Base Goku is inconsistent and doesn't have god ki. So while Goku might have some showings in base up to par with SSG vs Beerus, he's not always performing at that level.
    After all, most of the arguments that put Base Goku up higher are caused by Goku replicating feats that he has in higher forms. For instance, Base Goku stopping the Supernova that he hadn't yet stopped in SSJ or fitting casual Hit briefly in Base.

    The idea that Base Goku > SSJ Goku or Base Goku > SSB Goku is kind of silly. So, I'm more of the opinion that if Goku is tryharding or still learning a form that he push himself to access some of the power he has in later forms without transforming. For instance, Goku and Vegeta had a burst of SSB power without having their hair color change to Blue. Goku also showed that he has a relaxed form of SSB where he stays in a lower form until the actual attack. So like, if Goku wanted he could give a SSB tier strike while still visually in base, but he doesn't since there's no reason to not transform if he's gonna transform.

    I put CSSJ Goku at BoG SSG level, which is "Massively Multigalaxy" DC by OBD taxonomy. (I don't really care about the symantic argument about whether or not ability to destroy all matter in the universe counts as "universe level" or not.)
    Base Goku's typically performance I put lower than that, but not appreciably. He's got SSB tier reactions and stamina though.
    SSB is universal DC.

    I don't know if SSB can literally oneshot a normal universe with their power, but Kefla could at SS2 so it's not unreasonable and that means oneshotting a universe is certainly doeable before Hakaishin tier. But the power and the "can destroy spacetime" element has been given to us repeatedly.
     
  11. Keishin Well-Known Member

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    Base Goku>past SSJ Goku is silly? He surpassed his SSJ self once in base in DBZ already.
     
  12. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    No, Base Goku > SSJ Goku at the same point in time is silly.
     
  13. Juub R.I.P.

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    Probably false. Beerus implied Base Goku in BOG was weaker than Final Form Frieza.
     
  14. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    What do you say about Goku and Vegeta being fine with no SSJ in a tournament that Piccolo and 18 were entering?
     
  15. Juub R.I.P.

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    Them being arrogant. Or since BoG was some 20 years later, maybe Toriyama just forgot how strong they were supposed to be. The most recent evidence should take precedence though and if Beerus doubt Goku could have defeated Frieza, it makes me question Base Goku was stronger.

    Or maybe they wanted a challenge. It’s obvious they would have stomped out everyone in SSJ.
     
  16. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Challenge is a good point. They didn't know Buu Saga was about to start, so this was probably the only challenge in sight.
     
  17. Drake3513 Member

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    Or maybe they were stronger than piccolo and 18 but not as strong as a fully ascended super saiyan since both of them have been training.
    And if you think about it beerus was probably just saying it to make goku transform.
     
  18. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    My headcanon on the power scaling:

    Late DB/Early DBZ: Moon Level
    Saiyan Saga: Planet Level
    Frieza Saga [SS1]: Large Star Level
    Cell Saga [SS2]: Solar System Level
    Buu Saga [SS3]: Multi-Solar System
    Fusion Saga [Super Vegetto]: Small Galaxy
    Theoretical [SS3 Vegetto]: Large Galaxy
    Battle of Gods [SSG/CSSJ1]: High Multi-Galaxy
    Revival of Frieza [SSB]: Universe

    Fits with a pretty normal progression if we don't doubt everything for no reason. I bring this up because the primary reason for dismissing certain benchmarks is not fitting into a progression and I don't see that as legitimate.
     
  19. Drake3513 Member

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    this makes perfect sense and works with the feats too. Ssjg gokus best feat is the beam clash with beerus that had universe destroying power. So half universal. Ssjb is definitely more than twice that based on his fight with kefla.
     
  20. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Also possible.
    One way I look at that is either:

    1. Beerus was judging Goku superficially and Goku wasn't resting at Namek Frieza level power.
    2. Beerus wasn't judging Goku superficially - he could tell what Goku was capable of in Base. But same goes for Frieza - he could also tell what Frieza was capable of, and we know that is alot more than what we saw on Namek.

    So either he was saying "Base Goku's resting PL < Namek Frieza" or he was saying "Base Goku's full PL < Frieza's full power level". And Frieza probable wasn't slacking as hard 39 years ago.
     
  21. Juub R.I.P.

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    I would assume they were closer to Piccolo and the Androids in Base than Piccolo and the Androids were to them in Super Saiyan.

    I suppose the big problem we got is we have no concrete feats for any of them. Even if we put Cell at Solar System level based on his claim which wasn't outlandish to begin with, Galaxy level is still an enormous jump and no character after him has anything approaching it.

    Your progressive scaling makes much more sense than jumping from star to universe but sadly, we have nothing to scale all the characters from the Buu Saga to BoG. Hopefully new material from Super can fill in the blanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  22. Drake3513 Member

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    I was thinking maybe accepting kai as canon might do the work.
     
  23. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    The reasons Solar Cell was dismissed are all gone.
    - Wasn't done again later
    → DBS far surpasses Solar System level​
    - Movie calcs with Beerus at Solar System level
    → Now, SSG and the Beerus' BoG level of power are far above that.​
    - It's a huge jump
    → Now that Frieza is Large Star and DBS starts at Multi-Galaxy, it's a bigger jump to not accept this.​
    - Cell was probably bluffing
    → Guidebook's entry on SS "Grade 5" also makes mention of Solar System Buster Cell, so it's assumption is that Cell wasn't bluffing.
    I think the biggest reason for DBZ downplay is that everyone has seen it but not everyone is a fan, so alot of people bring in opinions about it. Where as if I tell you that some rando form some anime only I've heard of is multiversal, it's generally just accepted.
     
  24. Reznor Well-Known Member Administrator

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    This one is kinda funny.


    He's trying to dimiss it, but he comes only a power of 10 away which is confirmation with the kind of numbers we are talking about. With Large Star First Form, his calc would also be way over the required amount.
     
  25. Juub R.I.P.

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    Problem with that is the fact Beerus and Goku in BOG are too far above Cell for it to work.
     
  26. Fang Titan

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    Yes but a far weaker Super Saiyan Gohan pre-"I'll make a fucking man out of you again" Piccolo training was already more or less equal with Super Saiyan Goku post-Future Trunks/Goku Black Saga, and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan would be vastly stronger. Piccolo is still hilariously above Base Goku level at this point even ignoring hitting harder then he normally does with the Special Beam Cannon.
     
  27. Blade Well-Known Member

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    legit spoilers from the final battle of ToP












    : smirk
     
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  28. Toratorn Active Member

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    I just though that the Pretty Black Hole can be used to try to get the density of kachi kachin. I mean, it seemed that the arena was more massive than the black hole based on the black hole being attracted to the arena and not the other way around. So, seeing how black hole's mass can be calculated (if it wasn't already), can there be a way to calc the gravitational attraction of the arena, its mass and density?
     
  29. Montanz Lives under a rock

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    no
     
  30. Montanz Lives under a rock

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    still if the blackhole is legit you can scale its mass to everyone's lifiting strength.
     

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