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end of a debate

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Dark Uchiha, Jun 2, 2007.

  1. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    so back to the sasuke/kabuto conversation.

    with recent events it seems to have put an end to what kabuto was talkin about.

    it seems he was expounding on oro death

    and seems now it has been put to rest.

    oro is dead.
     
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  2. Mouten one batch

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    I agree 100%.
     
  3. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    I second with seiko.

    But there will be people who still believe that he is still inside sasuke:cry
     
  4. Lord Snow MOAR Kittens

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    Yes he is dead.

    The question that is still left unanswered is if Sasuke will be in anyway affected negatively or positively by his takeover of Orochimaru.
     
  5. Shinigami Perv Go Hawks!

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    We know that he probably wont return inside Sasuke. Orosuke will never happen... and Orochimaru is officially dead.
     
  6. RataXes Member

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    So it really seems. I was fanatic supporter for Oro's return but.. so I was wrong (though I didn't quite catch what's the deal with orobuto but we're gonna see it soon enough, I hope).
     
  7. bubble_lord Active Member

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    Shame, it would have been ace to have Sasuke lose some control during a battle.
     
  8. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    but, its still confusing tho is too options

    1. sasuke rejected oro out of existence onto that snake skin and sliced him up
    *remember alot of blood was around*

    2. smigit of conscious of oro last intense thought lives in sasuke like genmaryu but, like how oro stated its as good as being dead.

    3. or sasuke just jump topic and was talkin about the organization of the sound.

    so number 2 seems to be the consenus being taken over by oro is as good as being dead. but shit idk... but i do know this... oro is dead

    lmfao
     
  9. Noble Avenger Champs Bitch

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    Gee, I was right

    *not surprised*
     
  10. Shiron BOING!!!

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    Meh, just another Kishimoto retcon; just this time it was a super speedy one. :noworry
     
  11. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    what did he retcon? :huh
     
  12. 9TalesOfDestruction I hate filler

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    I'm still confused about it....yeah oro's dead, but sasuke was said to have taken over. I"m thinking Kabuto simply implanted one of oro's eyes into his own and is just nuts......
     
  13. Shiron BOING!!!

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    The fact that Kabuto believed Orochimaru to not be dead, just taken over, after Sasuke showed him what happened.
     
  14. Lion Takemusu

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    Yeah, I think we can put the "oro will come back !!!111" theory to rest now. Although, we shouldn't scream retcon and PnJ if it happens to come back. Sometimes the writer do know these twists and turn from the very beginning.

    That would require for you to know what happened to Kabuto between now when we last saw him. if you don't then it's just your assumption.

    Kabuto's behavior always been a little odd and Oro's behavior towards him has been two, and because of that I really can't see why Kishi's couldn't have known this from the get go.

    Suspicious eyes see only evil ~ Old ninja proverb
     
  15. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

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    we still do not know that oro is dead, wait til sasuke gets near death vs itachi, then we'll know for sure
     
  16. Shiron BOING!!!

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    I suppose... But I just don't see anything that Kabuto hadn't already seen by that point that could have possibly changed his mind on the issue. Thus, me believing it to be either:
    a.) a retcon
    or
    b.) Kabuto lying to Naruto, for whatever reason.

    Those two options are much easier for me to believe than Kabuto finding soemthing (out) that suddenly made him do a complete 180 on the issue.
     
  17. TenshiOni Active Member

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    He still exists as a part of Sasuke's soul. After all, Orochimaru himself explained this to Genyuumaru before he took his body over (and he was shown in that dimension Oro created so he wasn't lying). I wouldn't trust Kabuto as an authority on Orochimaru's transmigration jutsu, myself.

    Seeing as this is a Shounen manga, and that Orochimaru was a rather major villain, I wouldn't totally dismiss the possibility of his soul becoming dominant at least one more time before the story ends.
     
  18. Dark Uchiha Already Home

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    i believe its on what u think kabuto was talking about, which seems to be that its not a retcon , but what kabuto was saying in the confrontation with sasuke is that he was going on detail of oros death

    like not only did he die, but got taken over.

    what it appeared to oro, as he screamed in his dimension that he associated death with being taken over also
     
  19. Shiron BOING!!!

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    Does not compute.

    If he was just going into further detail about the conditions of Orochimaru's death, then he would have said something like "But that's not all", "But more specifically," "In more detail," "To be more precise," ect.

    He would not have said "No, that's not it..." like he did if he were just going into more detail, however. That expression only makes sense when you're correcting yourself and does not make any sense to use when you're just adding more detail.

    If you just going into more detail, you would say something like one of the sentence starters that I mentioned, but not what Kabuto said. It just doesn't work or make sense to say that when you're going into more detail and I don't know why some people believe that it does.
     
  20. kulgan18 Mecha freak.

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    Actually is just people assumption that his soul was still "living" trapped inside sasuke, or whatever you want to call it.
    The "i've taken over" part could have meant that he taked over his body again therefore the soul transfer failed.

    The soul could have been destroyed(being orochimaru spiritual world destroyed by sasuke's will) or just went back to his dying snake body.

    We cant call this retcon simple when people's interpretation of the events is wrong.
     
  21. Shiron BOING!!!

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    The thing is, the exchange between Sasuke and Kabuto there confirmed that both Sasuke and Kabuto knew that Orochimaru was still alive. And Sasuke's "I've taken over line" confirms in addition to that that he had just put Orochimaru into the same spot that others like Genyuumaru were in.

    And no, Orochimaru's soul is still alive. If Genyuumaru's and the other people's souls were still alive and kicking within Orochimaru's realm, then it would be no different for Orochimaru.

    And it really wouldn't make much sense for him to somehow end up going back to his own body... First off, how would he? And not to mention how such a scenario doesn't make sense with how Sasuke mentioning that he took over...
     
  22. Sorrow-Tear's Champion Fair and Biased

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    I think Kabuto's word should be trusted more than anyone's on the transmigration jutsu. He knew about the giant snake and the ritual space. And while most people would have thought Orochimaru's soul just disappeared, he recognized the difference. His knowledge is just under Orochimaru's.
     
  23. kulgan18 Mecha freak.

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    Actually no, it was never said that he was alive like Genyuumaru. Thats just an assumption.
    Genyuumaru and the others never had their spiritual dimension destroyed, that in itself means something different. I dont know why people just keep on dismising that fact.

    Why not? it makes complete sense that somehow his soul goes to sasuke, but it cant go back to his own body?.

    The taken over part means that sasuke is in complete control of his body. Nothing was said about what part of orochimaru was still alive and where.
     
  24. TenshiOni Active Member

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    I'll give you that. I definitely should have said "leading authority" in my post.

    Well, Kabuto himself said "No it's more like..." and Sasuke completed that line saying "I've taken over."

    If you're arguing that the current Kabuto, who is still an authority on the jutsu, who seems to believe Orochimaru is gone for good, then I can't say I completely agree there. It's possible that Kabuto simply believes Oro's as good as dead since he doesn't believe Orochimaru has a chance of even coming back.

    And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's set in stone Orochimaru will return. There's a good chance we'll never see him again and that he's gone for good.

    But based simply off the fact of his importance to the story, and the chance that, like Genyuumaru, he's not completely and totally gone (seeing as his soul is still there -- now within Sasuke), and well, Orochimaru's own pledge to return...I wouldn't totally dismiss the possibility just yet.
     
  25. Shiron BOING!!!

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    Assumption. We don't know how the ritual went when Orochimaru transfered into his body. Also, for all we know, if the ritual wasn't destroyed by Sasuke, then as part of the ritual, Orochimaru might have destroyed the dimension himself as a conclusion of the tehcnique or something. We didn't see what happened/what would have happened, so we really can't say anything here.


    Because the soul was stuck in Sasuke's body... How in the world would it get back to Orochimaru's? Not like Orochimaru can just make his soul fly around freely, at his own whim or anything.

    (Paraphrasing the conversation, since I don't remember the exact words off-hand)
    Kabuto: Orochimaru's dead...
    Kabuto: No, that's not it...
    Kabuto: It's more like...
    Sasuke: I've taken over.

    Pretty strong confimation that Orochimaru's still alive there, especially with how Sasuke didn't deny this, nor correct Kabuto on this.
     
  26. vagnard Well-Known Member

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    It was never stated that Orochimaru's soul still lives inside Sasuke. That's just an assumption of the fans.

    "I have taken over" could mean many things like "I took control of this body and kicked Orochimaru out of it". 2 Orochimarus in the manga makes little sense....specially when Kabuto stated he will surpass Former Oro, so....

    a) Kabuto somehow saved Oro's soul and Orochimaru lives within, waiting to take control in the future of the body.

    or

    b) Old Orochimaru is dead and Kabuto is right now Oro 2.0 fated to surpass his predecessor.
     
  27. Shiron BOING!!!

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    On the soul thing, I'd like confimation on that. It seems that not all of the translators (for example, Nihongaeri) mentioned Kabuto putting Orochimaru's soul into his body. And since that's shaky, I'd rather not depend on that to end the argument.

    If a translator can confirm that Kabuto said "soul" then okay. But if not, he could have just messed around with the corpse from Orochimaru's old body and used that to make himself partly Orochimaru, while Orochimaru's actual soul lives on within Sasuke.

    Yeah, two Orochmaru's would be a bit weird. But if that's the ally Kishimoto wants to go down, then who are we to say anything against that? Some of us might not the fact that Naruto is stronger than Kakashi. But whether or not that makes sense to us, within the world of Naruto, that's what's true.

    Same thing here. If Kishimoto wants to put two Orochimaru's into the story, then that's what he'll do. The fact that you wouldn't like that, or that it would make little sense to do so to you, is not an argument against it happening. All that is, is a reason why you would rather like for it to not happen and nothing more.
     
  28. TenshiOni Active Member

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    I'll admit there are fan assumptions involved but I believe there's room left for interpretation.

    The conversation: "Orochimaru-sama...is dead...no, it's more like..."

    "I've taken over."

    I choose to interpret that as "Orochimaru's soul has lost the battle for dominance and is now dormant within Sasuke." Orochimaru once told Genyuumaru that he wouldn't "lose everything" and that a part of him would live on within Orochimaru. I really don't think he had any reason to lie to Genyuumaru, and wouldn't we know it, we received confirmation of this when we saw the inner sanctum of Orochimaru's special dimension for the transmigration jutsu.

    I believe Orochimaru, like Genyuumaru and that grass-nin girl, is simply a soul attached to that gooey shit in that dimension Orochimaru created...which is now inside Sasuke.

    And personally, I have no qualms with having this Kabuto-Oro hybrid and the real Oro trapped in Sasuke exist in one manga.
     
  29. Shinigami Perv Go Hawks!

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    The problem with that is the overall tone of the conversation between Kabuchimaru and Team Yamato made it seem like Oro is indeed dead. Kabuto was talking about Orochimaru living on symbolically because he symbolized "rebirth"... and now Kabuto is reborn.

    It just sounds like Kishimoto is channeling any hope of Orochimarus presence returning through Kabuto... not Sasuke. And Orochimarus would live on in spirit... not in consciousness.
     
  30. vagnard Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about the translation. I'd say what I believes could be one possibility. Nihongaeri say "he integrated Orochimaru into his body" and I interpreted that either as he is a new Orochimaru or Orochimaru's spirit/soul lives within in and it will return in the future.

    Because none out of ordinary has happened until now. Many people predicted before that someday Oro could take Kabuto's body or viceversa when Kabuto's intentions where difficult to see.

    Yes....Kishimoto could make rain blood if he wants that wouldn't make any sense....and from what I have seen he is pretty consistent. 2 Orochimarus when one of them stated that will surpass the former isn't in the list of things that makes sense.
     
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