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Evidence of Goku/Vegeta getting dramatically stronger during the ToP

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by PFM18, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. PFM18 Active Member

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    I don't ask in an antagonistic way, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I am unsure and haven't made up my mind on the matter of whether or not Goku and Vegeta got dramatically stronger over the course of the ToP. I genuinely would like to see all of the evidence of such a thing collected in a coherent way and see if we can make sense of it. Sure, it has been mentioned many times before on this forum but only as a component of the topic at hand and not on that concept itself. I see that a lot of this evidence comes down to arbitrarily quantifying "he did better!" When the outcome of the fight is ultimately the same. To me, that is weak evidence, but I acknowledge that there's more concrete evidence than that and that is why I am unsure and am making this topic.

    What do you guys think? Did Goku and Vegeta get a huge power-up during the tournament or did they stay roughly the same?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  2. Izuku Wild Weeaboo

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    I barely understand zip of what you're trying to say.
     
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  3. PFM18 Active Member

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    I tried to clarify the OP
     
  4. Izuku Wild Weeaboo

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    Well. To answer your inquiry. They obviously both got a massive power-up.

    I mean SSB Goku from his first fight with Jiren to his last obviously improved. He was barely able to tap him at first and then he was suddenly able to deal a little damage. Same with Vegeta too.
     
  5. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    SSB Goku (episode 123) did better vs Jiren (using more power than he had before)

    Meaning SSB Goku in that episode had surpassed kkx20 self from the special.

    Regular SSB Vegeta got such an amp at the end of 122 that his final flash knocked Jiren down and had Belmod AND khai( who was calm during spirit bomb) shit bricks

    The theme of the ToP was breaking limits.

    So ...
     
  6. MShadows Deathbat

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    Are people still not convinced about the massive jumps in power that happened during the ToP?

    :facepalmed
     
  7. PFM18 Active Member

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    That amounted to an extremely brief exchange before going into SSBKKx20 though. Most of the fight was spent with Goku in SSBKK during 123.

    What evidence do you have that this boost persisted after the Final Flash was fired?
     
  8. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    What evidence is there that the boost didn't stay? This isn't 4 year old gohan with his rage boosts that subside.

    Goku vs jiren was still long enough and they traded enough blows and goku even said jirens punches were harder than anything he'd ever taken before and yet ssb goku held up way better than kkx20 goku who got blinked away by a weaker jiren
     
  9. PFM18 Active Member

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    I guess It isn't necessarily 100% clear either way.

    Obviously Jiren was stronger so Goku would naturally say it was the most he had ever taken. They literally traded a couple hits in an extremely short exchange before they took it to the next level immediately afterwards. I don't find this exhcange to be indisputable evidence.
     
  10. Toxic Saiyan Borderline. Sensible. Radioactivity. (BSR)

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    Well yeah but these are hardened veteran warriors we’re talking about here. And it isn’t hard to calculate pain, velocity, etc. if something hits harder trust me... you are GOING to know that it is. Short exchange or not. Something in there told Goku immediately that he’d need to power up with Kaioken.
     
  11. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    1. Jiren powered up consistently from episode 123 onwards because his opponents were getting stronger

    or

    2. Jiren got "goku syndrome" and went full on "jiren is about ki control" mode and powered up when he had no need to ala goku spamming blue vs everyone and their moms

    Choice is yours
     
  12. PFM18 Active Member

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    That's more of a strawman than anything else.

    Obviously Jiren was powering-up throughout the tournament. I never said Jiren didn't power up consistently after 123. But it isn't as though Goku and Vegeta were actually winning, the result stayed the same the entire time. It isn't as though there was an objectively different result, because they continued to get their ass beat by Jiren. And the only time they were giving Jiren trouble, it was explained by Whis and it wasn't because of anything related to power. It was because their attacks as a pair weren't synchronized and Jiren was having trouble because of it. And it isn''t even a one-to-one comparison because you're comparing it to when Goku fought Jiren 1v1 but most of the time after 123 it was spent in a 2v1.
     
  13. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    Yet their lack of teamwork didn't help them at all in episode 127 whereas he was frustrated at the start of 126.

    Clearly there was a point where his power was so much that lack of coordination did nothing which means power did play a part. I never said they were on his level but he didn't keep powering up for the hell of it.

    Episode 110 goku and vegeta team up and jiren slaps them both while using way less power than he did in 123 and beyond
     
  14. PFM18 Active Member

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    Goku and Vegeta never teamed up against Jiren in 110? And Jiren saw Vegeta beat Toppo and then he powered up. He didn't really make it a clear cut case of him being forced to power up. The way he described it, it seemed to be more out of respect than anything else because he was never losing in the first place for this to become necessary.
     
  15. Namikaze Minato Flash Well-Known Member

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    Jiren eithered powered up further in response to Goku and Vegeta’s continued rise in power or to discourage them. Either way, they still kept up and did better than the previous times after knocking them down. Vegeta even made a comment about the Saiyans getting stronger the more they fought. Add to the fact that Goku’s body got accustomed to UI-O and MUI like it did with SSJG in BoG then it’s only natural to believe his normal stats increased. Vegeta is even more cut and dry. SSJBE was the result of him breaking his limits...
     
  16. MShadows Deathbat

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    Doubt: The Thread
     
  17. Extravlad Well-Known Member

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    122 to 127 SSB Goku did way way way better than 109/110 against a much stronger Jiren (aside of 122 that is)

    End of ToP Goku would destroy early ToP Goku with ease.
     
  18. Superstars Well-Known Member

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    Why do we keep rotating these same topics with slightly different wording?:martin
     
  19. Pilaf The Man in the Rain

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    Vegeta gave a big speech to Belmond right before the climax of the final fight illustrating how the Saiyans continually broke their limits all throughout the ToP. Pretty much spelled out in black and white. Pretty hard to argue otherwise with Goku's overall state of exhaustion, too.
     
  20. PFM18 Active Member

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    From 123 onwards outside of an extremely short exchange when Jiren initially powered up, he was fighting alongside Vegeta so it is not an analogous comparison to 109/110 when he was fighting alone. In 122 when he fought Jiren individually, that was the weakest Jiren we've seen in the tournament as stated by Vegeta.
    ...And then it showed a montage of everybody achieving their new forms and it was used as a precursor to Goku achieving yet another transformation, Completed Ultra Instinct. It is pretty disingenuous to claim this speech Vegeta made was about people increasing their baseline power when what they show on screen is not representing that in any way whatsoever.
     
  21. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    Gohan didn’t use a new form in the montage and kefla kept getting stronger in her ssj2 in the montage
     
  22. Pilaf The Man in the Rain

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    Perhaps it's not a perfect example, but the second statement I made - which you ignored - works better. Goku, despite having his body thrashed and his stamina completely depleted right after the TV Special, continued to fight hard and reach higher forms later. Him staying at his initial power level throughout the ToP would utterly fail to explain his showing against Kefla and later opponents like Aniraza and Jiren rematches. His base PL must have been steadily increasing on a gradual slope or none of this makes any sense whatsoever. It kinda fits every other DB arc since King Piccolo or so, where Goku at the very least doubles his power level during an arc. The big difference here is the ToP takes place over a 40 minute period, and there's no training or healing going on here. Just gradual leveling up through fighting, which has always been implied to be a trait of Saiyans since the concept of a Saiyan was introduced, but we see an accelerated form of it here. And it'll be more pronounced with Broly. I suspect Toriyama was already planning Broly during the ToP and decided to preview the type of rapid evolution he'd make via Goku. Since their destinies are intertwined and all.
     
  23. PFM18 Active Member

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    He didn't achieve a new form in the montage but that's the theme of the montage. It literally just shows everybody gaining new transformations. Gohan had just achieved this "new" form before the tournament and was using it to some success so it fits the mold to some extent.

    Jiren is the only one with an even remote argument of a power increase being needed for this to make sense.
    Goku achieved a power increase in the King Piccolo arc because of the Ultra Divine Water and absolutely no other reason. This is not an analogous case at all.
    Yes, the Saiyans increase in power from fighting, but what evidence do we have that there was this dramatic increase? That's why I made this thread and apparently people are having a lot of trouble coming up with anything objective.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  24. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Gohan broke his limits and got stronger vs Koichirator in his ultimate form

    So pre Koichirator gohan = 90
    post koichirator gohan = 100

    Random numbers so don't focus on them *

    Kefla ssj2 at the start of 116 < kefla ssj2 at the end of 116, she got multiple powerups in the same form.

    Vegeta himself got stronger in his blue evol form in episode 126 and before you say "what proof do you have that it was permenant?" jiren confirmed his power in 127 saying "i can see how you were able to beat toppo" which lets you know it wasn't some temporary powerup
     
  25. MShadows Deathbat

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    You guys are wasting your time.

    You already brought enough evidence in this thread yet he still dismisses them as unsatisfactory.
     
  26. Etherborn Cosmic Impulse

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    This is just a strange question to be honest. You're asking for evidence while simultaneously dismissing the evidence you know is there, calling it arbitrary. But it's clearly not arbitrary. Obviously if they did far better against the same opponent and even prevailed in the end when they couldn't before, then they got stronger.

    Did you miss the part where Goku got glared into submission in Kaioken x20 and then nearly knocked him out in SSB after he recovered from use of UI? Did you miss the part where Vegeta barely had the edge against base Toppo in the mid stages of the tournament and then proceeded to eliminate GoD Toppo near the end? Or are you arguing that GoD Toppo = base Toppo?

    I'm not even sure how you can argue that Goku and Vegeta's stength stayed roughly the same during the ToP. It's one thing to say their transformations were the only gains they made, which is still factually incorrect mind you, but saying they didn't get much stronger is nonsense. Not only does it clash with feats and portrayal, but also character statements.
     
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  27. Revan Reborn Redeemed

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  28. PFM18 Active Member

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    Outside of MAYBE the little montage with Gohan, there's no real evidence of this.
    Yes, but that was literally stated to be the case. They said her power was growing. I don't dispute that because I am legitimately trying to find evidence of this stuff, but in the case of Kefla it is very cut and dry with an explicit statement.
    Yes, again. Vegeta receiving a permanent power-up is clear as day and not something that I made this topic to address. However, it isn't entirely clear if this was a result of his baseline power increasing across all of his forms, or him learning how to draw more power out of his new form, as in to learn how to unlock the new form's full-power. I would lean towards the latter than the former because he got this new form and he is furthering the form the same way he learned it in the first place. On an unrelated note, that's why I hate when people deny that SSBE Vegeta>SSBKKx20 when episodes 126 and 127 made that abundantly clear.

    But again, this isn't what I am addressing. I am addressing claims like:

    ep 123 SSB Vegeta>1st UI Omen or ep 123 SSBKKx20>2nd UI Omen.
    Oh it's extremely arbitrary because it the fight you are comparing it to is a 1v1 and you're using a 2v1 as evidence, and you're arbitrarily trying to quantify "did better against Jiren!" which is inherently extremely subjective. The only one-to-one comparison that can be made is like the 15 second exchange 1v1 with Jiren vs Goku which isn't really indisputable evidence.

    Goku nearly knocked out Jiern as a SSB? What are you talking about? Goku never did shit to Jiren unless he was in UI.
    Wait are you serious? Obviously that's accounted for the fact that Vegeta got a new fucking transformation. No shit he got stronger from then on but that's only really attributed to his new form and the boost he got in 126.
    Then show me these feats and portrayal. Where are these statements? You haven't shown any compelling evidence.
     
  29. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

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    >”outside of the show EXPLICITLY telling you Gohan got stronger vs koichirator, there is no evidence”

    :drake
     
  30. PFM18 Active Member

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    Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't recall an explicit statement about that being made.
     
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