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Final proof that Akatsuki members are at least as strong as the Sannin

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by jemakai, Jul 27, 2005.

  1. jemakai

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    I will try and stop all this madness.

    chapter 247 page 10

    Jiraiya:The sand have been warned and are preparing, ANBU have been deployed to key points in the outskirts....Even so I wonder if they would be able to forcibly stop some one like me entering the country.

    Jiraiya himself now knows the Ataksuki are at his level. So none of this Sanin>Ataksuki>kage level bull, unless some one can show this is a mistranslation this proves what most sane viewers already knew.
     
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  2. Yukimura

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    Can't argue with this one.
     
  3. Jink

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    there were doubts of the Akatsuki members not being on or above sannin level? idiots
     
  4. FitzChivalry

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    Tough to rebut but maybe he was maybe he was talking about himself specifically. But it looks like you got it right.
     
  5. tdultima

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    manda > "Sanin>Ataksuki>kage level bull"
     
  6. The Sandwich Prince

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    Now now.. I wouldn't call it final proof nor would I say they're on the level of the Sannin (Though the Sannin's power seems to be based moreso on reputation than abilities shown thus far). "Someone like me" doesn't necessarily put them on Jiraiya's level, but personally I stopped judging ninjas since match-ups can negate any skill shown.

    While I admit the Akatsuki are deadly in terms of their own specializations, they aren't the end-all of ninjas and really haven't been shown to be yet. Deirdra abused Gaara's care for the village, Sasori, while it has been said he killed the Third Kazekage, did so in a quiet manner? We've already seen what Iron Sand does to puppets so I'm a little less inclined to believe it was a fair match.

    Itachi is well-skilled in genjutsu and ninjutsu as a whole due to the sharingan, but without his trump card (The Mangekyou) he isn't too formidable or hasn't been shown to be yet. I don't really have anything against Kisame..

    I'm not saying they're not a deadly bunch, but they haven't been shown to decimate ninjas before them without much effort. I'd give it a bit more time until we pass final judgement.
     
  7. King Speed

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    you got a good point but i suppose you could argue it but i agree with what youre saying
     
  8. Blue Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    It's a good point, but like everything else, debatable. I don't want to turn this into a war thread, so I won't - but if this was a battledome thread, I could knock it aside.

    Itachi's dialouge about his and Kisame's chances of beating Jiraiya is an equally good point against the Akatsuki, and equally debatable.
     
  9. King Speed

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    alot of the messages people say in naruto are kind of cryptic thus making them debatable on anylevel (depending on how determined you are to prove your point that is)
     
  10. Merciless

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    My Translation is completely different:

    "The hidden village of the sand will enter into the first alert stage...Anbu are being deployed around the village...and i may enter the country to lend a hand aswell."

    Though since orochimaru was part of akatsuki, and since he was not the leader, it's safe to say some akatsuki members are equal or > than sannin, while theres others like Diedara, who i would'nt think was as strong as them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  11. jemakai

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    This is the guy who is supposed to be keeping track of Ataksuki. Itachi and Kisame never meet Jiraiya, Itachi was at the most 4 years old when Jiraiya left and he lives on the Uchiha side of Kohona.
    Comparing Jiraiya who has been keeping track of the group to Itachi and Kisame who never meet Jiraiya is just a lapse of logic. But I guess I can't expect more from people in this forum, some who still argue against the only definitive statement in the manga(Oro's statement to Itachi).
     
  12. Blue Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    I don't expect much of a rude, closeminded fool like you either.

    But then, I'm not usually so direct as to say it.
     
  13. Merciless

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  14. King Speed

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    Wait, wait... Jiraiya did meet itachi and kisame in chapter 146.
     
  15. Blue Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    I have that translation as well, but it's not by anyone I know to be accurate, so I'll hold off on dismissing this until I ask NJT or Nihongaeri or Iwanin or someone.
     
  16. Code

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    Yes but are Itachi and Kisame the strongest of Akatsuki has people always seem to think for whatever odd reason?
     
  17. Chatulio

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    it was a noble act of you to try and do this but many here wont be satisfied until akatsuki and the sannin actually go at it.
     
  18. King Speed

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    I just thought of something, Orochimaru said that itachi had strength even he feared right? when Orochimaru , Tsunade and Jiraiya all fought Tsunade and Jiraiya had a pretty hard time with Orochimaru even though his arms were damaged... so i suppose this could be translated it yeah they are or at least some Ataksuki members are at sennin level but this is very debatable.
     
  19. jemakai

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    I am not closeminded at all, I like things to make sense. I have changed my mind on somethings since I have been here, but you on the other hand haven't seem to grow or change at all. To say this is debatable just shows that, Oro was in Ataksuki and ran away because just one of the members was stronger then him, Itachi obviously isn't the strongest in the group so the logical conlusion is some if not most of the members are "sanin" level or higher. I have never seen a manga that hypes up characters for no damn reason, unless Kisimoto goes insane this thing isn't that hard to predict.
     
  20. The Sandwich Prince

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    Jiraiya was drugged and couldn't control his chakra well, which in turn would affect speed, strength, and other attributes. I think the Sannin fight is the worst comparison, but was obviously done purposely so it would be amazing during later fights involving them.

    I won't get into the whole Orochimaru / Itachi discussion since it wouldn't be worth the time and might attract a certain fanboy.
     
  21. King Speed

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    oh yeah, i never took jiraiya in to consideration thanks for pointing that out, i forgot completely
     
  22. Khanaris

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    This is a stupid argument. You can't judge relative capabilities by a measure as subjective as stated character opinion. This is not algebra. All these "="s and "<"s are meaningless. Anything any of the characters says has to be taken with their own biases and limited knowledge in mind. It should be enough to say that the Akatsuki, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Oro are all very strong and capable ninjas. There is nothing more you can come even remotely close to proving, especially not by taking a handful of cryptic opinions literally.

    /rant off
     
  23. Merciless

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    Itachi, will be close to the top of akatsuki maybe even second strongest.

    Ero sennin is most likely stronger then itachi, he's stronger then kisame, he's most likely stronger then sasori, and deidara, aka "the runt" would most likely be fish food.

    the leader is probley greater than the sannin, the top few can keep up with although probley not beat a sannin, and the rest of akatsuki are below them.
     
  24. Khanaris

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    Not to mention that strength is not a fixed quantity. Some ninjas will naturally better at taking on certain types of opponents. Orochimaru is fundamentally weak against a Sharingan user, since he relies heavily on various ninjutsu(which can be copied) and genjutsu(which can be seen through). Jiraiya has far fewer weaknesses in that respect, since he relies so heavily on summoning. This makes it easy to understand why Oro thought that Itachi was stronger than he was while Itachi was nervous about fighting Jiraiya. It doesn't mean Oro is weaker than Jiraiya, though. Short-ranged fighters will be vulnerable to ranged attackers without some form of defense. Slow jutsu-users will be vulnerable to fast taijutsu types. That is why you can't just say the Sannin are stronger than Akatsuki, or vice versa. It is entirely dependant on how their specialities line up.
     
  25. Begoniax13

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    Wrong the Akatsuki are not on the Sannin level, but rather one level below. This is how I handicap the elite. However the Akatsuki are extremely powerful based on this. Most of the Akatsuki is Kage level. Anyways, that's how I rank the elite.

    God of Shinobi tier(Legendary best 5 ninjas ever)

    1.Yondaime(Akatsuki leader, said to have unrivaled strength)
    2.Sandaime(God of Shinobi, has mastered thousands of jutsus)
    3.Orochimaru(One of the 3 legendary sannin, Yondaime candidate)
    4.Jiraiya(Orochimaru's eternal rival, mastered over 1,000 jutsus)
    5.Tsunade(Another one of the legendary sannin, superhuman strength)

    Kage level tier(Competitive tier, skill level is all relatively close)

    1.Uchiha Itachi(3rd strongest in Akatsuki besides Leader and Orochimaru)
    2.Yakushi Kabuto(He's higher ranked than Kakashi)(Hasn't shown true powers)
    3.Hatake Kakashi(Rokudaime candidate, copier of 1000 jutsus)
    4.Hatake Sakumo(Konoha's white fang, Kage level)
    5.Akasuna no Sasori(Killer of Sandaime Kazekage,Deidara's master)
    6.Zetsu(He has to be pretty strong, hasn't shown true potential)
    7.Shodaime(Konoha's first Hokage, and third strongest Hokage)
    8.Sandaime Kazekage(Best in Sand by far, one of the strongest kages ever)
    9.Hoshigaki Kisame(Superhuman strength, S ranked missing nin)
    10.Nidaime(One of Konoha's Hokage)
    11.Deidara(Sasori's servant, crushed Gaara of the desert, nuclear power)

    Elite Jounin level(Can't defeat Kage level shinobis)

    1.Sabaku no Gaara: Kage of the 2nd largest village(Infinite sand capacity)
    2.Raikage: Kage of the Lightning Village(Uses S class lightning jutsus)
    3.Mizukage: Kage of the Mist Village(Uses S ranked water jutsus)
    4.Tsuchikage: Kage of Stone Village(Uses S ranked earth jutsus)
    5.Akatsuki secret member 1(Member of the Akatsuki)
    6.akatsuki secret member 2(Probably that strong guy)
    7.Akatsuki secret member 3(Weakest Akatsuki member ever)
    8.Maito Gai(An elite jounin martial arts master)

    Jounin level(For jounins who are experienced, but not elite)

    1.Uchiha Sasuke(Container of the most powerful sannin, Orochimaru)
    2.Sarutobi Asuma(Most wellrounded Konoha Jounin, really high stats)
    3.Dan(Really, I should have ranked him higher than this)
    4.Genma(Kickass ninja with a lot of power too)
    5.Momochiro Zabuza(One of the 7 mist swordsmen)
    6.Kurenai(Illusionist, Genjutsu master)

    Tokubetsu Jounin level(For popular demand)

    1.Uzumaki Naruto(By popular demand, popular characters can't be weak)
    2.Kaguya Kimimaro(I really should have ranked him higher than this)
    3.Mitsurashi Anko(One of Orochimaru's subordinates)
    4.Shizune(Tsunadesama's subordinate, should be ranked higher)
    5.Genyuumaru(A container of Orochimaru can't be weak)
    6.Haruno Sakura(Has to be at least Special Jounin level. Trained by Tsunade)
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  26. jemakai

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    Limited intelligence....Jiraiya is supposed to be the most well informed person about Ataksuki other then the actual memebers and Oro. So I guess we should ignore all the statements made by Jiraiya and Oro saying that Kabuto is equal to Kakashi, Kisimoto just made his characters say that to trick and confuse us.

    I think you are treating these characters like they actually have personalities or minds of their own. Kisimoto makes them say what he wants, Jiraiya is portrayed as knowing a good amount of info on Ataksuki so we are lead to believe his opinion on their strengths is valid.

    I do some what agree with you though, after jounin level their really isn't a higher level so these guys can kill each other given the right situation.

    Oh, and about Oro. He said he wants to learn all jutsu, not just ninjutsu that are copiable. Oro has shown just as many uncopiable moves as Jiraiya, and can easily be considered a better summoner since he can summon kages(which Jiraiya can't) and has a summoner tattoo with avoids handseals(which Jiraiya doesn't). That is just bad logic, he wasn't afraid of copyninja kakashi so he is not scared of a person copying his moves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  27. Merciless

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    But you forget, nothing in naruto is co-incidence, kishimoto aka "god" writes the storyline, and his characters are merely puppets, if kishimoto thinks itachi is greater than oro, then he is, because he made the naruto world, all people try to do is interpret his teachings, and thus find the path to true enlightenment. But i wont argue the fact most of the time his followers, take drugs and come out perverting his teachings.

    Religious intolerance = no. :modsmack

    Consider yourself officially warned - Wrath
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2005
  28. Blue Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    The reason why I suspect that the Akatsuki leader is (more or less) equal to the Sannin is that there is only one of him.

    9 Hokage-level shinobi? That's stupidity.

    I like your first tier. Alot. :tem

    And I was about to question your placement of Kabuto so high, but it rather makes sense, now that I think about it.

    The only things I would disagree with is leaving Gai off the Elite Jounin tier and placing the kages into it. Kages are...kage level. :huh
     
  29. Khanaris

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    That isn't the point, but it does bear some reflection. Kishimoto does do everything for a single reason: to advance the story. When he wants to foreshadow another character, he uses an existing character to do it. That does not mean that what that character says is true or even accurate in a qualitative sense. Jiraiya's opinion is still written as Jiraiya's opinion. You shouldn't ignore character opinions, but you can't treat them as gospel truth, either. Kishimoto himself is just as capable of tricking us as any of his characters.

    For that matter, we have no idea what Kishimoto himself thinks, and no way to conclusively make that determination from the Manga until the fight is over and done with. Even then, there are so many other factors determining victory in a fight that we can't predict the outcome from some arbitrary "strength value".

    What we can do is make guesses on the outcomes of certain fights based on what we know about the abilities of the combatants. Since we know next to nothing about the majority of the Akatsuki, we can not do this for them.
     
  30. teflon_don

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    When u guys say elite jounin do u mean special jounin, because if that's the case

    a special jounin means:
    Special Jounin are ninjas who have gained high Jounin-level skills in one area of ninja arts. These are ninja like Morino Ibiki, who is highly skilled at interrogation and torture.

    Speaking of the argument if we want to take everything literally and forget chances of mistranslations, we can safely assume that jiraiya is stronger than itachi and kisame.
     
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