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For all of you that still think Kaguya was pulled out of Kishi's bottom!

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by (510)THIZZ, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    I haven't been here in a minute. I meant to make this thread a few years ago for all of the slow people who constantly miss things. For the people who always scream "ASSPULL!!" whenever things don't go their way or they simply just can't understand things. I remember all the madara fanboys/girls losing their shit with the reveal of kaguya. The main gripe these ignorant butt hurt fans had was that there was no "foreshadowing" of her. The zetsu twist just added insult to injury. Pain fans lost their shit and said the same about madara and obito(well obito's plot twist was executed kinda poorly though) smh. Well for all of you people that were blinded by the rage of your favorite character being tossed aside. Causing you to miss all the foreshadowing and hints about her existence. I will help you slowly through it, and you will see she was never an ass pull and was thought of waaay back in part one.

    1. Remember Kimimaro? Well he belonged to a mysterious unique powerful clan that went extinct. It was called the KAGUYA clan! I just came up with a nice theory after reading the latest boruto chapter(it's finally picking up) about kawaki. I think he's the true last member of the kaguya clan. I'll explain this in the proper thread later. But anyway, We didn't get much info on this clan or exactly why orochimaru chose him as his perfect vessel before sasuke. We now know that pretty much every special clan member that orochimaru had with him were strongly connected to the otsutsuki family. The way his clan died off was a bit ambiguous as well. Nobody even knew where they were from. So ummm yeah, this was the first sign/hint of her existence.

    2. Her story is on the uchiha ancient tablet. Nobody could read all of it unless they had the fully powered eyes to see it. In Obito's flashback of when madara was telling him about what he learned from reading the whole tablet. She was shown but it was an ancient style type of picture but her name was not spoken.

    3. We learned from madara that his hideout had been there for a very long time and the god tree was old as fuck. Also that the husk left behind were already there when he discovered the place. Meaning that the moons eye jutsu had already been done waaaaay back in the day. Of coarse he didn't know this because it wasn't on the tablet. We learned this from hagoromo later.

    4. The mystery of zetsu. Some of us thinkers instantly figured out that zetsu would play a huge role in the future. At one point people thought he was gonna be the "final villain". The guy was the first member of akatsuki we seen that appeared at the end of part one. All he ever did was go around and gather information. He was every damn where just watching. Then we learned that he ate people(collecting their chackra I guess). White zetsu was stupid(madara's creation) while black zetsu was smart and seemed very wise. One major clue we got about black zetsu's level of knowledge was during the fake itachi vs sasuke fight. All of us sharp people were trying to figure out how zetsu knew more about itachi's blade than orochimaru(the guy who was obsessed with it). Zetsu was clearly old. So his role in kaguya's revival makes perfect sense. He creeped into the kage summit and not one person noticed him. May not be "clever" enough for some people but his/kaguya's plot twist make sense.

    5. Kakashi mentioned that the sharingan came from the byakugan in the middle of part one. This was never mentioned again/explained until near the end of of part two. Lets see if you can use a little brain power and figure out why without me walking you through it anymore.... .. .the answer is what you refuse to believe about kishi's writing. So you can justify yourself screaming "ASS PULL!!!!!!" all the time.

    There's a few more that I can't think of right now because this is all straight from memory. Kaguya's existence has been sprinkled all throughout the series here and there. It just wasn't super obvious. It kinda reminds me of the revival of madara and people losing their shit over it calling it an ass pull lol. Besides Kurama saying his name, a few hint's were sprinkled around afterwords up until his revival. Kishi never dropped a random name or gave something a full panel and never explored it again. Hell, kaguya was actually foreshadowed/hinted at before madara if you think about it. Kaguya's was more hidden of coarse, because she was the damn final villain!! Using common sense and logic. A lot of us often wondered where did chakra come from?, where does blood limit abilities come from?, what did kakashi mean by the sharingan comes from the byakugan?, etc etc. Well only limited thinkers would have loved to see naruto end after the pain fight or with madara. But the rest of us wanted our questions answered, we wanted a full fleshed out ending. Like it or not, everything started when kaguya ate the forbidden fruit(see where kishi did there?). The whole narutoverse started with her and her family. She was a goddess that fell from grace. Her family put an end to her madness/evil and banished her. But before she was banished she left a backup plan that would one day ensure her return. Madara was very special and was chosen to help with this plan. He was nothing more than a vessel and a huge pawn. He was taken advantage of. It's ironic because he did the same to obito, who did the same to nagato. Naruto is the hero of this age old classic tale who breaks the cycle.

    Say what you want about how naruto ended, but don't say it was a damn "ASS PULL!!!!".
     
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  2. MShadows Deathbat

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    Kaguya was clearly foreshadowed since she was literally mentioned and shown before her introduction. Anyone with even a little bit of common sense would've imagined that she was bound to appear in flesh and bones at some point and play an important role.

    I think the biggest controversy here is that her portrayal (as in her personality) was very stale and boring compared to Madara and his antics which were much more interesting. The fact that Black Zetsu literally took the role of her voice and had to talk in her place as well as hold her hand throughout the final boss battle didn't help improve things at all either. This left a bad taste in most people's mouths and I believe is the main reason why people are quick to dismiss Kaguya as an asspull or whatever.
     
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  3. root eltiT resU motsuC

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    You missed the part where Orochimaru talks of wanting to learn the origin of chakra and says something to the extent of wanting to combine all chakra/jutsu in one person to see what happens. In the same arc where the death god's design first shows up. Kaguya was at least a vague idea in Kishimoto's head from all the way back in the chuunin exams.

    The foreshadowing is too vague and there's not enough buildup to make her reveal work dramatically though. Since all the quotes by Madara you mention happen right near the end of the series only a couple of hours before she appears. Before that she was only very very vaguely hinted at. She also doesn't really have a meaningful role in the story or the characters' personal arcs. That's where most of the criticism comes from.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  4. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    See, this is where people need to pay attention. Remember when we found out black zetsu was able to record battles and he's always watching shit? It was a big debate on here for years, we all wondered why. Well it was all for kaguya to catch up. Once he reconnected with her she instantly knew a bunch of shit. The little things she didn't nkow about he filled her in. Her personality was like that on purpose. She lost pretty much all of her humanity. The god tree pretty much took over and she doesn't want anything but all the chakra back. When she looked at naruto and sasuke she could feel the chakra of her sons. In that moment she showed some personality/humanity for a moment then the god tree's thurst took back over.

    I fucking loved madara's personality. I also enjoyed kaguya's, she felt like a true finale villain. She was talk no jutsu proof and just felt....alien like. She truly felt god like and a final villain. I didn't want her to be like madara or anybody else and I think it was done right. She wasn't nothing like they've faced before and couldn't even fight her normally. That's just my opinion though.

    Yeah, I forgot about that. But I highly doubt Kaguya was that vague though. These creators usually have a beginning and ending already done before they fill in the blank space. Which is why the shit irritated the fuck out of me lol.

    Yeah you can argue that the foreshadowing was too vague and the build up came a little late. This is how I felt about tobi/obito. It mostly made sense but I think kishi drew it out too long to hide it better. Because the moment we saw tobi was not too long after kakashi's flash back. The one eye socket made it hella obvious. In drawing this reveal out for so long many potential "tobi's" popped up. To a point where obito became irrelevant, he couldn't possibly be this powerful. There was a few minor mistakes and reaches made as well during the explanation. Notice how in the anime they kinda corrected this by showing the kakashi arc before showing tobi a bit sooner?

    To me, kaguya was basically the wrap up. We got the world building, character building, and a clear goal. Kaguya just pieced everything together. She was basically the devil or whatever variation of chaos/evil of the story. She was the origin story. This is what basically naruto was in a nutshell. Kishi went for that classic surprise reveal. It hit with some folks and it didn't with others. But the ass pull crowd just think kishi actually just came up with her at the last minute lol.
     
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  5. BlinkST All is well in the kingdom

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    Kaguya was a poorly thought-out character man let the shit go already:catskully
     
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  6. Seelentau The All-Knowing.

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    Guys... it's all clear now... guys... listen guys... listen...:
    Because we SAW Black Zetsu in part 1
    it means that his role
    like
    his role as Madara's will turned traitor
    that role
    that was already planned
    in part 1
    BECAUSE HE WAS SHOWN THERE ALREADY
    get it guys? retcons
    they don't exist
    Kishitmoto is a GENIUS!!1
     
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  7. Hypothesisnull Na-na-ruto kun!

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    Kaguya Hime legend is the oldest Japanese Narrative. It dates from the X century. It is more than plausible that Kishi planned it all based on the legend itself OR he left a door open to introduce her later on IF needed.
     
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  8. Ruthless Tsuchikage Active Member

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    First of all linking people's dislike for Kaguya with a love for Madara might be a wrong connection to make. I really don't like Kaguya but I hate Madara just as much. They are both bad but for different reasons. Madara is a bad character because he just casually shatters the Naruto powerscale beyond repair and is special enough that the lore holds no restriction on him. Kaguya on the other hand is bad because she just randomly appeared saying ''Hi I'm an alien and I'm behind anything that has happened and also the source of Chakra''.

    I think you subscribe a lot of importance to things that might not be so important after all. There's nothing binding Kaguya and the Kaguya clan together. Them sharing the same name seems more like random trivia than any genius foreshadowing. Zetsu meanwhile showed up in part one, has a decent amount of screentime and has some non combat achievements under his belt. Okay. I don't see how this had to lead to an alien randomly walking into the plot. Same with Madara and the tablet that only people with special eyes can read. Every fan knows that it surely contained many mysteries. That it would all lead to aliens is probably not something those fans expected or desired.

    A main reason why I feel Kaguya is such an extremely last minute addition that wasn't foreshadowed at all is because I hold Kishi in higher regard than that. If he wanted to spread clues throughout the series that could explain Kaguya, if he did plan to properly forshadow her and if Kaguya wasn't meant to be out of place then he failed. Because at the end of the day she still walks into a story fully set in motion to randomly point out that she's actually behind anything, that she's the one the entire lore revolves around and that every important person either has a connection to her and her silly moon people or they don't and consequentially aren't very important to the lore. And I'm not alone in this. If so many people think Kaguya is weird and out of place then somewhere along the line Kishi failed to convince a sizable number of his audiance about Kaguya's worth.
     
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  9. Indra I can't stop eating

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    Kishimoto stated at Jump Festa or something that Kaguya was planned last minute. I know someone has the quote
     
  10. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    "Well into part 2" was what he said IIRC.
     
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  11. Platypus Well-Known Member Super Moderator

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    So basically Kishi thought of the Sage of Six Paths around the time the Rinnegan was introduced. Kaguya wasn't thought of until much later.
     
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  12. SupremeKage Hunter x Hunter>ur fave

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    The problem is her character literally had no purpose in the narrative unlike Madara. She wasn't properly built up to being the final antagonist.
     
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  13. BlinkST All is well in the kingdom

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    My sides!:skully
     
  14. jonnty6 "I'm killing you cause I can"

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    I honestly feel like 95% of the fandom was influenced by those fuck nikkas on Youtube that call themselves "reviewers".

    That said I coulda swore kishi made it clear she was kinda last minute?
     
  15. PureWIN Mr. Prince

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    These excuses for clearly documented asspulls. How much did Kishi and SJ pay you? :mjlol
     
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  16. root eltiT resU motsuC

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    ^This basically.

    I maintain that he did leave some things open for filling in later; Like the death god, like Oro's end goal, like Zetsu's nature and goals, like the origin/identity of the gedo statue. These were originaly done to create mystery and imply incoming plot twists, and Kishi probably had some vague idea where he could go. But he came up with the exact explanations way too late in the game, unable to foreshadow or insert them properly. Just like how he left the Obito reveal lying too long to execute it properly and believably (his late unmasking necesitated giving him ridiculous power levels that made it all weird). Where Kishi usually is pretty good with his setup and payoff.

    I am in the camp that likes Kaguya. But the storytelling around her, and Madara and much of the final volumes, is clearly flawed.

    Plot twist: wrapping up and finishing a huge story like this is hard as a writer.
     
  17. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    Please read the post above you, it helps out a lot. Ever heard of evangelion, dragonball, sailor moon, attack on titan?.... .. ..A lot of series use this for their stories.

    See, this is how people don't use much brain power. You do realize when story tellers create shit they always leave their options open. Especially when it's a long mostly straight forward type of series. Some even change their endings. Now before you One piece stans come in here on some "Oda is a genius ONE PIECE IS PERFECT!!!!" shit. No the hell he's not!! His story was straight forward like naruto at 1st. But down the line he made the story "flexible". He basically turned one piece into Pokémon, if you catch what i'm saying. He's basically not restricted and can head off into other directions while maintaining the core story with ease. People actually think the man wrote everything years ago as is lol.

    You actually interpreted what he said a bit wrong, read it over again. The man obviously had things set up earlier in the series(left open). These story tellers have concepts already set up. Somewhere down the line they fill them in or change them. Kishi might have had multiple things in mind but he ended up with kaguya for the fill in. Writers do this shit all the time. Look no further than movies. They're not even long running series and 90% of them have multiple endings and changed characters.

    This post proves nothing, Kaguya was no "ASS PULL" LOL. The concept of "Kaguya" was always there since part 1. You will be surprised what you hear from the creators of series you think are written so well. Last but not least, you act as if this man was just thinking of things shortly before the release of chapters lol.His time frame of when things were thought of doesn't coincide with chapter releases. He could have added Kaguya into his original concept like 100 chapters prior, or more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  18. Zef Dark Magician

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    Orochimaru is a scientist first and foremost.

    Him wanting to know the origins of chakra is nothing deeper then the curiosity of a scientific man.

    This is not foreshadowing


    Orochimaru is power hungry.

    This also is not foreshadowing.

    We see via Kabuto a glimpse of what Orochimaru was trying to obtain by mixing different chakra's & DNA togerher.

    Orochimaru being an unethical mad scientist obsessed with power =/= Kaguya being foreshadowed.


    The two's resemblance is greatly exaggerated by the fandom.

    Disagree, anyone can take tidbits of lore to try and make things seem connected or planned out.
    That's essentially what you're doing here.
    :kanyeshrug
     
  19. Raiden formerly President Goobang

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    He also said that he struggled to write Madara's story because he was too strong. Evidence lines up pretty clearly that it was a last minute way to wrap up the story. For whatever reason, he didn't feel comfortable just ending with Madara.
     
  20. Ruthless Tsuchikage Active Member

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    I know Kaguya is a mythological figure and I don't think it matters. Orochimaru is also inspired by the mythical Orochi and Jiraiya too comes from Japanese folklore. The difference is that the later two are long running Naruto characters who made it clear they belong in the Naruto world. Merely being influenced by folklore doesn't do anything to make Kaguya randomly walking into the plot any less weird.

    The Dragonball argument holds a bit more water but there is a very clear difference. Dragonball Z made the whole series revolve around wacky space people too but this was done to start a new chapter. Raditz, Namek, the Saiyans and Frieza were all part of a new beginning for the series. Kaguya wasn't a new beginning for Naruto but the very end of Naruto. She was introduced in the last moments of the series and overtook a plot that was already going.
     
  21. AlphaMaleScotty Famalam

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    tl;dr OP looking too deeply into shit that was never even there and misconstruing the series' writing for his own convenience

    More @ 11
     
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  22. Ishmael I'd rather you hadn't seen that.

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    The whole gods concept was, madara should've been the last villian and that's facts.
     
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  23. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    Glad you brought this back up, the The "ass pull!!!" warriors ran wild with this one. This so called "evidence" was only evidence to people who don't know what story tellers go through. Also for people with a one track mind. Kishi never really goes into detail when he says things like this to explicitly confirmed this "suspicion". Kishi could have already implemented Kaguya into the story before he had the madara hang up. The man is just taking you through his writting process. othing more, nothing less. When people hear little snippets like these it's really easy to take things out of context. He could of had an even stronger version of madara but ended up powering him down a bit. Or making his opponents equal in a way, it could have been anything.

    Again, it actually makes sense and it does fit. Do you know what a secret "big bad" end boss is? It's been done many times. I already broke down how it's not "weird" and how she didn't "randomly walk in" in my original post. She, and her family connects all the dots in the narutoverse. The "concept" was there long ago. SHE, AND HER FAMILY ARE THE VERY CREATORS OF THE NARUTOVERSE AS WE KNOW IT! She belongs to the naruto world no matter how connected you feel to her.

    You could argue that Kaguya and her family was a set up for boruto. Goku fell out of sky, was super strong, had a tail, and could turn into a monkey looking at the full moon. Where did such an odd kid come from? Why does he turn into a monkey looking at a full moon............find out in DBZ!!!! Where did kaguya and her family come from? Why can they see chakra? Where does chakra come from? Why did she become a demi god and try to turn earth into a army? Who the fuck was she preparing to take on? Find out in Boruto!!!!

    People say orochimaru should have been the end and also the end of the series. Some say the end should have been with pain and obito. Some say madara was an "ass pull". What do you think about that?

    Ok, if it would have ended with madara. How would you explain
    1. The origin of chakra
    2. The origin of taild beast
    3. Blood line limits(example: the sharingan comes from the byakugan)
    4. Why were hashirama and madara the G.O.A.T ninjas/so damn special?
    5. What mind blowing discovery made madara snap and lose his way?
     
  24. Indra I can't stop eating

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    lol Kishimoto came up with Naruto's kids name before he thought of Kaguya..
     
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  25. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    So, what is this supposed to mean? I'm 100% sure he came up with a lot of things before thinking of others. Pain could have came before orochimaru. Madara could have came before both of them. Lol all you guys keep twisting things to fit your "ass pull" narrative. Taking small quotes out of context and acting as if whatever you came up with is straigt up fact. Well, that is an actual ASS PULL!!!!

    Do any of you have a time stamp for when all of this was going on in kishi's head and when he gave these ideas life? NO YOU DO NOT! Let me give a current example of how concepts work. The creator of dragonball just announced a movie that goes into the canon of the series. He revealed a character that was basically just in the movies will now be canon to the series. He said that he already had the "concept" of him long ago. He even had his character model made up. But he never brought it to life. Somebody on his team took this concept, built on it, and put it out. It was a smash hit. Now the cretor decided to actually go forward with this concept and finally add it to the canon. Once some people read this they went on the ass pull rant smh. Just over looking that it's been there all along and was left "open"
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  26. Indra I can't stop eating

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    Kishimoto said in an interview a while back that he came up with Boruto's name around the time Neji died (go figure).

    And he supposedly thought about Kaguya last minute around the War Arc time, I suppose. It was dry humor.
     
  27. Former Obd Lurker. Well-Known Member

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    You have to be the biggest Nardo fan.
     
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  28. Ruthless Tsuchikage Active Member

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    You did have several points but as stated in my first post I don't find them very convincing. I don't see the Rinnegang, chakra and whatnot as dots that all end up connecting to Kaguya. I see it as Kaguya being inserted extremely late in the plot and all those things then retroactively being made to resolve around this completely new character. Its not a puzzle all leading to wacky moon people but instead its wacky moon people appearing and suddenly the entire lore revolves around them.

    A big problem might be the timing. As I said Kaguya decided to wonder into a plot that was already going and didn't need her presence. Her sudden appearance also ensured the story wasn't build to lead up to her. She might have worked if she was a Boruto villain and if Boruto was written to both ask and answer these questions, and if Boruto was given the time to set this all up. But with her lackluster appearance in Naruto everything Boruto now tries to do is just trying to expand on a mistake.
     
  29. (510)THIZZ THE PUPPET MASTER/SNAKE SAGE

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    This aint funny at all, and you left out the parts where I actually broke this terrible summary of yours down. This is a great example of what the "ASS PULL" crowd does. I would love for you to point out these "RETCONS" you speak of without going off topic and making stuff up..... .. .

    lol at some of the people who gave you a rep. That guy blink is the president of the "ASS PULL!" club and the biggest sasuke stan. Everytime something doesn't go right for sasuke he screams "ass pull!!". Boy, having back and forths with him was hilarious. Especially when itachi's brought up.

    So you really believe that this man managed to create something that connects everything at the last minute? You really believe that a story that is over 10 YEARS in the making just has a last minute made up finish....? If this is the case, then this man is a true genius lol. Since you basically are leaning towards this was an ass pull(or mistake). Let me ask you a few questions just to give you something to think about.

    1. What do you think the "mysterious" Zetsu's role was supposed to be in the story?
    2. What do you think was the story behind kakashi saying that the sharingan came from the byakugan?
    3. Why did kishi introduce such a unique/powerful clan like the Kaguya clan. Then never mention them again?
    4. Where do you think chakra came from? Did you even care or wonder? lol.
    5. Ever wondered why certain clans were so special?
    6. Ever wonder who made the uchiha tablet?
    7. Ever wonder(or even care) about the tailed beast origins?

    Like I said before, some people are cool with the "SURPRISE!! IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME LURKING IN THE SHADOWS CONTROLLING EVERYTHING HA HA HAAAA!!!". Some people don't and rather have the straight forward "Look, I'm the bad guy, right here, come and defeat me hero when you get strong enough" approach. I'm a huge science fiction/mystery/horror nut. So kaguya was a great plot twist to me. Ever see the movie "saw"? That had one of the greatest/most clever plot twist endings I've ever seen. A lot of peoples minds were completely blown. But some were yelling "ASS PULL!!" and thought it was dumb. Even after people breaking down how it made perfect sense. They still couldn't accept it because they simply "didn't like it". That right there is ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  30. Ruthless Tsuchikage Active Member

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    1: Simple, what he was shown to be before Kaguya appeared. The Akatsuki spy master who's true identity was an experiment of Madara and who thus was able to babysit Tobi. We saw Madara create him before dying so I say that was all the explanation required, perhaps even all the explanation planned at the point of Tobi's flashbacks. Tobi has shown to possess a pretty high tech lab and Hashirama's DNA is supposedly able to do just about everything the plot needs it to do so no, I wouldn't say Zetsu was an unanswered mystery.

    2: Just worldbuilding. A throw away sentence. That there is a connection between the clans could be used for lots of things aside from aliens.

    3: Same reason as he created the Inazuke only to have Kiba forever be stuck in the background. To give a character an easily identifiable fighting style. I don't feel the Kaguya clan is a particularly good example because Kaguya and this clan don't share much in common. Bone jutsu's aren't a big part of Kaguya's arsenal compared to her eyes and dimension stuff. Aside from the noblemen's markings on their face they are also depicted as barbaric while Kaguya looks like a Heien noble woman.

    4: No. The willing suspension is enough for me. I also never wondered where Kii from Dragonball came from or Mana from every jrpg out there. It certainly wasn't a question that needed answering at the very end of the series without the question really being asked. Chakra could have been explained at the mid point of Naruto or at the start of Boruto. Just interrupting the climax of the war arc for a quick new injection of lore and a new villain is exactly what's so silly about the situation.

    5: Favoritism from Kishi or convenience for the plot. I feel the Hyuga are more a point against than in favor of Kaguya being planned. The Uchiha bloat had overtaken the plot a long time ago but the Hyuga were pretty neglected even before the Uchiha won in prominence. It has two popular but relatively unimportant characters and didn't impact the plot much after the Chunin exam where they were a side plot at best.

    6: Not really and I think the last seconds of Shippuden was the wrong time to answer that question. It could easily have the Madara plot continue uninterrupted and once Boruto started they could get into detail about who wrote the tablet and how it inspired Madara.
     
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