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Genius/Hard Work=Joke?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Sho, Oct 2, 2005.

  1. Sho Active Member

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    Is the theme "A hardworker will surpass a genius" a joke? That's what I've been wondering when considering some of the themes of Naruto. If Kishimoto actually payed that theme any thought, I don't think he would have contradicted it as much.

    For example: Naruto is supposed to represent the "hard work" ninja, yet:

    -Do "hard work ninjas" have something like Kyuubi? I don't really think he can be considered a dropout even if that were so considering that he learns moves quickly and thinks strategically in battle. His stats aren't even that bad without the Kyuubi and he definitely wasn't the weakest one in the Chuunin exams, yet he's considered a "hardworker/dropout" category which makes no sense. He definitely works hard, but that's nothing new as everyone does that; yet he's in the "dropout" category since he had the worst grades in the Academy? And if you consider Kyuubi, wouldn't that put him in the "genius" category--according to Kishi's definition-- because of that unique type of ability which only he has but no one else?

    And Sasuke is supposed to represent a genius who relies only on natural talent, not on hard work, yet:

    -We've seen him train hard since he was a child, nonstop, working at his techniques and skills until exhaustion. From him training with shuriken with Itachi, to learning the Gokyakuu no Jutsu, to mastering the tree exercise with Naruto, he has never lazed around just relying on his natural talent. He is one of the hardest workers in the series because he knew he would have to surpass a true super-genius like Itachi. So is Sasuke considered a "genius" or a "dropout with hard work" who's surpassed other "geniuses" his age?

    And Rock Lee is supposed to represent the "hard worker" as well, yet even Neji, the greatest Hyuuga prodigy ever, is one of the hardest workers in the series. From learning the Kaiten, Hakke, learning to see the tenketsu, and practicing his Jyuuken skills so that he was the strongest of the Rookie 12 in the Chuunin exam, it's obvious that he wasn't just coasting by on talent.

    And the Orochimaru vs. the Jiraiya and Tsunade rivalry thing:

    -You've gotta be kidding me. While it's true that Orochimaru was considered a genius that comes within every "few decades", there's no way that you can tell me that Jiraiya and Tsunade can be considered more of a "hard worker" than him. Orochimaru has been, since the beginning, creating new jutsus and techniques in order to become a Hokage. When he ran away from the village after being caught out by Sarutobi, Orochimaru still continued to make himself stronger, by joining Akatsuki, creating a new ninja village, creating the immortality technique, getting Edo Tensei, etc. And what has Jiraiya and Tsunade been doing? Gambling and drinking? Writing porn novels and peeping? Even if they somehow got stronger by doing such activities, how can their "hard work" have surpassed Orochimaru and what he's been doing?

    And then look at this:

    -Sarutobi, the strongest Hokage ever, was proclaimed as a genius and he's a good guy.

    -Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Haku proclaimed as genius as well because of how he could master his bloodline limit? And only he, Naruto, and Sasuke have a potential of 5.

    -What about all the bad guys who are supposed geniuses? For example Deidara and Sasori. Sasori was beat by a future new Sannin medical prodigy and a legendary puppeteer ninja. Deidara was overwhelmed by sheer numbers not to mention destroyed arms yet he was finally taken out by a super genius (Kakashi), and not a hard worker.

    -Rock Lee--the true underdog--after showing to be able to perform opening the Gates, was proclaimed to be a "genius of hard work". A genius is a genius no matter what. So by saying that, was Rock Lee able to attain those skills because he had the talent inside him--making him a genius--or did he only reach those heights because of hard work, effectively negating manga evidence that said he was a genius? Either way you look at it, it's a contradiction of the theme.

    -Obito and Kakashi. Something tells me Obito never surpassed Kakashi, so it's just another example of this theme never coming out.

    -And then you have Shikamaru, a super genius yet he's not one of the strongest. Who's supposed to surpass him considering this theme of "hard worker surpassing genius"?

    In all these examples you either have the strongest people being geniuses in the series, geniuses doing hard work and working harder than others, a genius being beaten only by other geniuses, geniuses staying stronger than dropouts, an example of one of the best geniuses not being the strongest, or drop outs now being considered geniuses.

    It's strange, because it seems more like if you work out hard and become strong as a result of that, you're then considered a genius.

    Should Kishimoto change his theme to "A genius with hard work will surpass an even greater genius that works hard?" Or do you think that Kishimoto's theme actually makes sense?
     
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  2. Hexa probably Dendi

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    I don't think "hardworker will surpass a genius" was ever presented in the manga as an over-arching theme. Rock Lee mentioned hard-work surpassing genius once in his introduction, and it wasn't elaborated much past that. I think the hard-work aspect is pretty much specific to Lee and Gai. Only Rock Lee has his goal involving hard-work itself; for every other ninja in the manga, hard-work is simply a method for achieving his goals. Naruto wants respect and to protect those he cares about, Sasuke to kill a certain man, Neji works hard for some reason concerning fate, and so on. In summary, hard-work is a character-specific theme rather than an over-arching theme.

    Plus, the only real slacker in the series is lovable Shikamaru.

    Edited for elaboration.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2005
  3. Cholisose Uhh... (cough)

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    Good topic, Sho. You have a good point, in that most "geniuses" are also "hard workers." Frankly, it seems that all of the Konoha 12 are hard workers pretty much (except maybe Shikamaru?), though some are deemed genisuses while others are deemed dropouts. Why? Because the latter did poorly in school, while the former did not. Naruto and Lee are called dropouts because they sucked. Neji and Sasuke are called geniuses because they didn't. Now, Naruto and Lee ended up being pwners, so they are dubbed hard workers because they had to work hard - but this gets muddled because Sasuke and Neji both had to work hard too to get where they're at. Things get even more muddled when you have someone like Shikamaru who seems lazy but is deemed a genius, someone like Hinata who works 24/7 AND has a bloodline yet is still mediocre, someone like Sakura who is deemed the brightest student in school yet doesn't really have actual talent (at first, mind you), and then someone like Gaara who has no bloodline yet is deemed a genius. This makes Naruto's place more confusing, because while Gaara has a demon inside him just like Naruto (and both get special benefits from them, just like one would with a bloodline), Naruto isn't deemed a genius while Gaara is.

    Anyways, is Lee's idea of working three times harder than Neji to surpass him correct? While I'm certain that Lee has worked longer than Neji if you clocked them, I really doubt that Lee has worked THAT much more than Neji. It's all muddled, especially when we've got Kakashi thinking there must be more to Lee than just hard work.


    Anyways, I agree with Sho on his analysis with Oro, Tsunade, and Jiraiya. The latter two were far, far less focused with ninja-ness than Oro was, so it does seem odd that Oro is considered the genius and not a hard worker. If anything, Oro might be practically the hardest worker of the series, lol.

    Now that I think about it, how many ninjas ARE there that we've seen that haven't worked hard? Could it be Gaara, who stands around and lets his sand do all the work? No, I think he has to train his mind a lot to control the sand so well. How about Shikamaru? Well, he's lazy, but he DOES train. And he loves to play shogi, which more or less IS training for him. I can't really think of a ninja that doesn't work hard. o_O
     
  4. ChickenPotPie HAH.

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    Everyone has to have some sort of talent to compete with others of talent. In Lee's case, his genius is an oxymoron. His talent came from having no talent.

    As for the Dropout vs. Genius thing, I hope Kishimoto picks it up after all the serious boss fights are over. It's the reason why I anticipate Neji vs. Lee the most, if it'll ever happen.
     
  5. FFLN The Smexiness has arrived

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    I think his theme is something like "Everyone's special in their own way,":love and to not look down upon those you would deem as failures because they could surpass you even if you're a genius.

    If you take into account that Kishimoto's grades in school weren't all that good, that would imply that he wasn't a good student, but it doesn't show what his talents or skills are. Sort of like the title to the third episode of Naruto's match against Neji, "Dropout's Hidden Power!" Despite being considered a failure, he has skills that still allowed him to succeed. That's what I think he's doing.
     
  6. CyberPunk 3D Blaster Savage

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    Honestly, I've been meaning to make a thread about this for some time. Good work Sho. I think the genius/hard work thing was written sort of poorly. There's too many loops and contradictions.
     
  7. Dullahan Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the theme has always be pretty limited to Rock Lee and Neji.
     
  8. Ah B Member

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    I think Kishimoto considers people with POTENTIAL a genius. moreover natural talent.

    But Kishi does contradict himself in ways, destroying the plot. Gaara getting ressurected(sp) sort of ticked me off.
     
  9. captainpg No pictures, Jiraiya-sama?

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    Being a genius in this series somehow seems self-limiting in a way, in terms of linear thinking and skeletons in the closet. Sasuke is always so convinced of his superiority that he's always suprised and becomes more angsty whenever he's beaten or when Naruto desplays more growth.
    Neji, obsessed with destiny, had been likewise absolutely convinced that he would beat Naruto (he boasted as much to Genma that he'd kill Naruto)and it never once crossed his mind otherwise, so he never considered Naruto always has a backup plan.
    Kakashi was always certain Sasuke had more potential then Naruto and thus invested his training into the 'genius', only to be surpised when Naruto displays a superior jutsu. He has a habit of telling off other jounin when their students seem to come close to Sasuke's skills (Gai, Jiraiya) yet he taught Sasuke both an assasination technique and Lee's own style(damn copy-nin). He also tends to get blind-sided an awful lot(Zabuza, Kabuto, Itachi.)
    Sandaime...His is the greatest irony of all. Despite being the greatest of Hokages, he certainly backed the wrong horse when it came to Orochimaru, and paid for it with his life by letting the vengeful snake-nin live when he had the chance to take down the leaf's worst enemy.

    Shika's a genius on paper, not by being hailed as one and letting that get in the way of his thinking, and it shows since he seems to be the only 'genius' here who can think outside the box.

    Hard workers surpass genuises in this series by not having so much of an ego as to not contemplate screwing up, despite doing it an awful lot. Naruto survived alone for most of his life without knowledge of the Kyuubi as the source of the villiage's hate, and in that way the demon was akin to Lee's weights: a burden one learns to live with by getting stronger.

    Simply put Genuises get dragged down by their pasts and their egos and get strong for the wrong reasons, hard workers start with nothing and make something of themselves.
     
  10. tmmyc on a Forums Break

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    Only Lee wants to show that hardwork can surpass genius. What he did not take into account was that a genius can be hardworking too, and a hardworking dropout cannot surpass a hardworking genius. This is why Lee loses time and time again, and why he can never surpass his rival, Neji.
     
  11. genjo sanzo FLCLtard

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    hmm yea I really agree with this topic. The points said are exactly what I've been thinking, but explained well.(i would suck at that)

    But then again, I also thought that perhaps they werent really saying a genius is someone who doesn't have to work at being that "level" but perhaps that other people recognize their potentials and see them as more likely to suceed.
     
  12. sakurahumper Banned

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    Geniuses in real life HAVE NO LIVES so yeah hard workers pwn them.
     
  13. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    The point is that if you work hard, you can be every bit as good if not better then someone who is naturally talented - Yes both Neji and Sasuke work hard, but by rights considering thier "natural talent", Rock Lee and Naruto should blow compared to them, but they dont, because they work hard at thier game and press themselves more. Even without Kyuubi, Naruto and Sasuke with 2-tomoe Sharingan activated were perfectly tied up in thier fight until Sasuke activated the stage 1 curse seal.

    Look at what happened to the Sound 4 for a good example of ungodly talented Shinobi (for thier age) who tried to coast by on thier "talent" *coughCS2cheesecough* and what happened to them when they met the less powerful, but much more driven, Konoha shinobi.

    Here is a quote that I love, and is somewhat on topic:

    Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

    Calvin Coolidge (1872 - 1933)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2005
  14. mayumi Well-Known Member

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    Go

    i don't know about the theme of the series is actually about hardwork/genius completely. i think its a part of it but mostly i think the major theme is acknowledgement for whatever the characters do with their lives.

    i mostly think that geniuses are usually potrayed as people with high talent potential and few of them come from feared clans or reputation based on the abilities of their father, family or taught by some teacher etc. usually geniuses get more recognition than the hardworkers because people mostly expect them to do some sort of amazing thing.
    back in neji's fight with kidomaru, neji says that he can't give up because people think of him as a genius and has to live up to their expectation even if he really doesn't consider himself above others.

    i don't think it was ever about geniuses don't work hard or anything, its just they have more of a buzz sound noise around them than hardworkers do, that makes people turn their heads towards them and recognise them more hence they get more acknowledgement than hardworkers do, which is why i think the theme is about "acknowledgement".
    ________
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  15. Master Scorpion UG's High Priest

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    I agree with you Sho about OroJiraTsu...!! the story is not making sense
    Kishi will never recognize this...
     
  16. Mizura Meh

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    Actually, the theme is more this I think:

    "With hard work, you can achieve any of your dreams."

    Become a great ninja, free yourself from your cage, become acknowledged, etc.
     
  17. Cthulhu-versailles The Luckiest Man in Agrabah

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    ...I agree with everything except the lee statment-

    Lee was considered the genius of hard work... because he sucked so bad that he couldn't use baseline ninija skills.-Instead of giving up he just worked like crazy on the only thing he could do, to the point where he was able to acess something usually only geniuses can.-Basically rock lee has gone through the entire cycle naruto was meant to go through...lol that makes rock lee a finished character....

    Ps: how can you free urself from the "cage" by gaining acknowledgement... ABsolutle power corrupts absolutley...Cough Itachi, sasori... oro.. so many others!
     
  18. icoselitham Lost

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    ^i agree. anyways hard work means never giving up and training hard like naruto and especially lee. drop out means cant do a simple justu like naruto couldn't henge no jutsu correctly in the beginning and lee could only use taijutsu. Genius are those who started out with an extra boost thus are supposedly at an advantage. Genius are those who didnt suck at the academy therefore = Sasuke and Negi. But your right about everyone being a genius these days.
     
  19. Mizura Meh

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    I was making a list of seperate examples, not implying that the statements have a relation to one another. :notrust

    Neji decided to work to free himself more or less, like Genma told him to. Naruto is seeking acknowledgement. Lee wants to prove that even without ninjutsu or genjutsu, you can become a great ninja. etc.
     
  20. Cthulhu-versailles The Luckiest Man in Agrabah

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    ...Has neji freed himself... NO. He stills has that big old nazi symbol on his head and could be randomly killed by nay head branch memeber should they so chose.

    ------------^^^ reply yo your post vvvvv-random thought on lee

    ...in order to prove something you need to work at it. Lee was considered to suck horrid ass... yet he is a pwning speed star.. for awhile... why because he trains more then GAI... and uses the grappler baki method of training! Doesn't matter what lee's out to prove- he won't be free even if he proves it- because he'll become trapped to devotion and maintaince of "proving that style"

    Ninja are tools... Zabuza had it right.
     
  21. lekki Specialist

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    I tihnk the theme was always bogus and Sho hit the nail on the head that Kishi was high or something whenever he called someone a genius or a hardworker.

    The only person that clearly fits the genius thing is Shikamaru. He does almost nothing and is still a good ninja.
    But he's nowhere near as powerful with jutsus as some of the other geniuses like Neji, Sasuke and the genius of hardwork Lee but they're ridiculously hardworkers, I mean ridiculously and it's been shown over and over again.

    Unless of course, genius means, if you bust your ass and you become a good ninja, you're a genius.
    And a dropout means, if you bust your ass and you're still not that good, you're a dropout.

    Because that theme is actually still in show.
     
  22. Cthulhu-versailles The Luckiest Man in Agrabah

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    ...lekki where do you keep getting these hilarious avatars?

    shikamaru the only true genius... wouldn't oro also be in there... or better Kabuto!

    ..KONOHAMARU is easily the greatest genius of all time- his camaflouge jutsu is the most creative in all manga ever written:amazed
     
  23. tmmyc on a Forums Break

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    You forgot to put "Except for Lee." His dreams were shattered, with only 50% chance of survival.
     
  24. FanB0y Active Member

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    ^ Where have you been?
     
  25. lekki Specialist

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    Shikamaru is the only one who has never been shown doing anything.

    Oro is constantly killing people in the name of jutsu mastery and we all know what Kabuto works hard at to get his genius:)

    Shikamaru is the only one who just watches clouds.

    Even Konohamaru is known to bust ass.
     
  26. abz_ Doesn't want a Custom Title

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    i swear lekki is jiraiya in desguise.

    anyway i agree with sho that kishi has confused the meaning of genius and hardworker.

    but why would kishi even bring this up this form of class? could it be he was trying to show discrimination? or something similar to that but then changed his mind and slowly tapered it out of the manga?

    the genius is supposed to be a person who gets it right all the time. but that doesn't come without hard work. the example in the manga was when sasuke would always show off his kunai throwing prowess in the academy. he would train hard for it and then show the fruits of his labour. naruto on the other hand would try his best in training but not achieve anything close to what sasuke would achieve.

    kishi has shown that sasuke worked hard to get what he did, so the genius thing dosn't stick on sasuke, it seems he is more of a hardworker. however we have seen that a genius usually needs to do less training then a hardworker.

    the hardworker is someone who has to do more work then the genius to get the same results. the kunai thing again, naruto worked untill he was exhausted with the kunai training to get to sasukes level.

    so, so far genius need to work to achieve something but not as much as a dropout/hardworker.

    so i thought this until i realised something, look at how naruto learned the rasengan, the climbing tree and the walking on water.
    and look at how sasuke learned the chidori, walking on water, and climbing the tree.

    the difference is that sasuke applied what he learned on the tree climbing to the water walking (we never see sasuke learn it he just does it in the naruto fight after he gets CS2), naruto had to be told how to use the tree climbing info to learn the water walk.
    also it's how naruto and sasuke learned how to climb the tree, naruto couldn't even compete with sasuke untill he got the info from sakura, sasuke found out for himself thru trail and error (he even asked naruto for the info before working it out for himself).
    the rasengan and the chidori, sasuke learned this within 3-4 days. he used his sharingan and it showed him the critical info he needed to learn the chidori.
    naruto was just shown how to do the rasengan and thru dumb luck and unbelievable hours spent training he learnt the rasengan. naruto had to work out the critical info for himself, that is what jiraiya was trying to get him to do. and naruto got it with a bit of help from a cat.

    to sum up geniuses know or can workout that critical information for themselves and they can do it quiet quickly compared to a dropout/hardworker.
    a hardworker needs to put in much more hours untill they get that critical info from the countless hours spent training.
    unfortunatly in the academy everyone is given the same amount of time to do something, the geniuses workout the critical info easly whereas the dropouts/hardworkers need more time to understand/obtain that infromation. often the dropout does not understand it and falls behind. look at naruto he couldn't do a bushin before the scroll, and when he got the scroll he got the instructions and within those intructions was the info he was missing to do bushins. once he learned it he could do the kage bushin jutsu with ease.

    its all about the critical info for each tech, the geniuses understand/obtain it before the dropout/hardworker does. the hardworker persists until he understands it.


    ABZ
     
  27. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    Genius=A real Genius like Shikamaru
    Hardworker=Ninja who works hard to get where he is at
    Dropout=Crappy ninja whos looked down upon and works hard
    Genius(Kishimoto version)=Ninja that learns well and is great compared to others(usually with a bloodline)

    Now I guess you could categorize them or ill put some examples.

    Hardworking Dropout
    = Ninja whos looked down upon because they arent good so they work hard to get where they are at to become great with little(or no) advantages and weak shinobi skills. Examples are Naruto, Rock Lee, Jiraiya, and Gai. Supposedly Yondaime is in here too (if I remember correctly).
    Hardworker=Ninja that works hard to become great. Busting their asses off far more then average ninjas for a common goal. Examples are Naruto, Lee, Sasuke and Neji. Yes Naruto and Lee fit into this category also.
    Genius=Born shinobi that are extremely gifted and skilled for their age. Examples are Kakashi, Sandaime, and Orochimaru.
    Bloodline Geniuses=Shinobi that have a bloodline and for some reason they are called geniuses. Maybe because they are better then alot of the clan members, maybe because they have a bloodline. Sasuke, Neji, Kimimaro and Shino are in this category. Sasuke and Neji fit into the bloodline genius and the hardworker categories for some reason.

    This is how I see everything. Kishimoto is just using the word genius when he doesnt know what it means.
     
  28. Don^Jonas New Member

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    stop whine =p? you writed so much i didnt even want to read it :D
     
  29. Mizura Meh

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    *blank stare*

    And Naruto still isn't Hokage.
    And Lee still isn't a great shinobi Yet (not until he truly surpasses Gai, and for that he'd have to make jounin first).
    And yes, Neji still isn't completely free.

    They're getting there though.

    But you seem to have missed the whole point of the Naruto vs Neji fight and the Hiashi apologizing to Neji bit. The point was that Despite an unerasable mark, you can still achieve "freedom" in your own way.

    And it's not certain if anybody else apart from Hiashi even knows the Curse Seal jutsu, you can be sure that Hiashi won't use it on him. And since Hiashi is training Neji, Neji has his protection so to say anyway, like anybody would go against the clan head.

    So the theme remains that you can achieve your dreams through hard work. It fits with Kishimoto's own biography: he worked hard and managed to become a great mangaka thanks to it. *shrugs*
     
  30. Master Scorpion UG's High Priest

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    *applauses* your opinion is same what I was thinking!!
    Kishi-san was not a bright student when he was in school!! but his mentor is Akira Toriyama and he wanted to become like him! but yah..his dream is come true! now he is a great mangaka!!
     
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