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Global Rules Discussion

Discussion in 'The Konoha Times' started by Reznor, May 1, 2018.

  1. Reznor Administrator Administrator

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    Background:
    We've gone through various stages of globalization of rules on NF. Giving every section mod sovereignty has historically caused problems. Trying to hybrid solutions of parent forums having consider rules within them was tried and failed.
    These reasons and recent issues have caused globalization to be the direction we plan on going.

    The following are tentative plans for new global rules:
    What is being proposed:
    We've have begun pushing for global modding. The intent is to reduce controversy and establish a consistent protocol in how rules are enforced, regardless of section. This streamlines the process of reacting to reports and complaints and takes a lot of personal proclivities out of the equation.

    Goals:
    Exceptions
    Exceptions to these rules should internal justification, not random ad hoc adjustments.
    For example, sexually explicit content isn't allowed in any public area. Bathhouse is an exception by merit of being a private section, rather than being an arbitrary exceptions.
    Off-topic controversial issues aren't allowed. Cafe is an exception by merit of controversy conceivable being on topic.

    Consistency over dependence on preferences of current moderator:
    Rules should exist in such a way that global staff needn't feel excess differences in how to handle issues in other sections.
    Although some subjectivity is needed, rules should be precise enough that the mod in power doesn't radically alter how rules are enforced in a section.​

    The Cafe has received numerous complaints over not cracking down on trolling, followed by allegedly breaking rules with occasional baiting.
    A few months ago the Readers Corner received a complaint for not banning/warning a user for insulting them.
    Before this there had been drama in the CB related to staff being too strict, or not strict at all.
    These controversies are symptoms, most would agree, of a problem of confusion and inconsistency with respect to how rules are enforced. Users often get mixed messages on what is and isn't okay.

    Proper modding of baiting/flaming/trolling:
    The Cafe is currently having issues with qualifies as baiting. Some would prefer that any opinion may be expressed, others would prefer action to be taken against users who use "political opinion" as a shield for expressing bigoted opinions.

    A majority of the staff is pushing towards this school of thought:

    Off topic racism/sexism/etc will always be disallowed.
    Whether or not it's derailing an NA thread about Ameratsu with "Sarada won't get MS since women are inferior" or it's derailing a Cafe thread about mail scams with "they feel for it because women are inferior", it's the same issue.
    If it's not germane, it's spam. If it's not germane and it's intentionally inflammatory, it's bait and measures need to be taken against it regardless of how they disguise it.

    The only exception that the Cafe should get here is that sexism/racism could potentially be on-topic. (See "Exceptions")
    In that event, however, the rules need to be made in a such a way that they are clear, not purely subjective and have clear guidelines for the moderators to follow about what shouldn't be allowed.
    This thread:

    This is an open invitation to give feedback and suggest changes to the rules.
    Please not that this thread is not a complaint thread or an opportunity to share individual greivances so much as to provide constructive advice towards fixing those issues.

    If you don't like that Mod X does/doesn't enforce flaming enough or that a member Y was banned or that troll Z wasn't, either address that issue in another thread or provide suggestions on rules that would make your desired outcome come about. This is not the place to ask us to remove Mod X, free member Y or ban troll Z, but a broader focus.

    If you want to chuckle and make commentary on the happenings of the thread, please do so in your convo thread of choose, rather than here.

    I would prefer to not have to read through counter productive posts, so violators will be promptly removed from the thread.
     
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  2. Dave Grohl I'm your fool

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    Can you also set out a structure around warnings/bans that is logical and consistent throughout the forum.
     
  3. Reznor Administrator Administrator

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    Hm, yeah, maybe that should be a goal too :thunk
     
  4. Dave Grohl I'm your fool

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    I suggest:

    Warning, Final Warning, Ban. Two month cool down for reset ie warning -> 2 month later, warning -> 1.5 months -> final warning.

    Then after ban is lifted, user gets Final Warning, Ban. Two month cool down applies.

    2nd ban, duration increases.

    3rd ban, duration increases.

    So on and so forth. As a wise person once says, we should never ban because that means we failed as moderators. Except when people are trolls of the highest order of course.
     
  5. Dave Grohl I'm your fool

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    Also to add, a standardised warning message which will prevent ambiguity. Some thing simple like:

    "In these posts: link link link you have violated global rule: rule number. This is a warning to prevent this behaviour from continuing. It will be in place for two months before it is dropped, however if you reoffend in the next two months it will escalate.

    Please reread the rules located here(link) and take note of the warning schedule within the rules."
     
  6. Grandpa Uchiha Who wants some of my Wood Release?

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    The only thing I disagree with this whole thing is it would kinda interfere with how some of us do mafia and shit we sometimes sling. I mean, if it does just gives me a reason to step away from it. Not that it matters what I say.

    :kermit
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  7. Island In the Sun

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    Can you clarify this some more?

    I don't understand what constitutes "on-topic racism/sexism." The way this sentence is phrased implies that there are threads where "women/minorities are inferior" is appropriate.
     
  8. Mider T VM Rapist

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    My last ban was indicative if the interpretive nature of pronz.
     
  9. Reznor Administrator Administrator

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    Off topic sexism is completely forbidden.
    On topic sexism is a short leash.

    A diplomatic post that minimizes offense I'd be fine with even if it swerved into sexism alittle bit. Like, if we were talking about women in the military and someone made an argument about women not being as aggressive or physical as men making it a bad idea, I'd believe should be allowed. "Women/minorities are inferior" however I believe would be longer than that lease.

    How long do you think that leash should be?
     
  10. Amol Chief of Wisdom

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    This might be actually a good thing.
    As a Cafe regular I am having whiplash of what is okay and what is not okay. We have been too used to cafe being a rough place .
    Baiting also needs to be given lot of attention. Few days ago I got banned for flaming a guy. I deserved that ban because I did flame him. But that guy was someone who was advocating tormenting little kids(and had advocated mass murder of children in past) . I thought that was baiting. Mod of section disagreed. Flaming in my part was directly result of my frustration at the fact that no action was taken against such psychopath because he wasn't 'technically' violating any rule. The way I saw that whole mess is that forum rules sucked big time.
    So you can see why I want better forum rules when it comes to baiting. Like you said in your own post ,not all opinions can be forgiven as 'political opinion'. That would only turn forum into a cesspool of depravity where you can talk literally anything as long as you do it 'politely'.
     
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  11. Island In the Sun

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    My post in that SCR thread sums up my thoughts on the matter:

    In general, I think stuff about physicality is fine, but stuff about "women are naturally X mental attribute or prone to Y emotional behavior" is pushing it, especially if it's unsubstantiated.

    It's a hard rule to enforce I imagine since there are times when discussing differences is appropriate, but broadly, I don't think anyone should have to defend that their group is mentally, emotionally, or legally equal to others.

    So I guess to give you a specific answer, the leash ends when people make unsubstantiated claims about mental/emotional capacities or imply that one group should have less rights than others.
     
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  12. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    Sorry to necro this but recent events have necessitated a discussion on this.

    It shouldn't exist at all? The idea that a user can be censored, banned or thrown out because he articulates views that contradict the majority on the staff (which for the Cafe are so far left leaning as to consider open calls for the murder of Trump supporters okay), this an absurdity and in an era where the right to freedom of expression and free speech is becoming the unifying issue for most people online...I don't see this ending well, if you guys start censoring what users can and cannot say no matter how idiotic and racist then you're going to lay the foundations for a response against NF that makes what was done by a certain user in 2010 pale in comparison and honestly? We'd be justifying it, if we put ourselves down that nightmare path.

    Your limiting of sexist and racist speech should be the advocating of violence in an incredibly obvious and explicit sense. The idea that users in a forum like the Cafe can't go "Women are able to rape men and the law won't do a damn thing" or "Transgendered people are mentally ill" is..insidious to say the least. Neverminding that attempts to curtail free speech are becoming a human rights crisis and will lead to real world violence sooner or later and that one's interpretation of what is sexist is incredibly subjective you are doing little more than giving one faction of highly volatile, unstable and reactionary posters carte blanch to conduct a purge on this site that's going to result in them wielding the forum rules and the mods like weapons to cull any user they dislike.

    This is already happening, the mere fact that Es and myself are banned from certain sections has nothing to do with any valid flaming, its mere political suppression using the flimsiest of excuses. Simply put...users have both the right to attack the character of a poster if that poster shows themselves to be a whackjob...and to express views towards race and religion an unstable majority may find objectionable.

    What those users do not have the right to do, is call for the murder of said unstable majority, advocate for violence and specifically use a persons race, orientation or religion as grounds to dismiss their argument.

    What you're proposing is Orwellian and monstrous and as the whole global situation on this issue deteriorates further...it invites reprisal here.

    This forum isn't going to be saved by insane PC crap and over regulation, the solution to me seems simple.

    1, The staff need to be subject to a council of admins with the power to review their actions should a user object(these mods should be hidden from everyone including the staff and should be barred from social interaction with the userbase and the staff), infract them or remove them from power or just laugh at a superfluous report and move on. Right now the staff has zero accountability, zero oversight. While the autonomy of section mods should be a thing that exists here...they also shouldn't be above the law, this creates so much of the mistrust and bitterness you're seeing.

    2, global modding ignores section cultures and in the case of the OBD ignores that the OBD is vs forum and not part of NF, its culture and idiosyncrasies are part of a much more expansive internet phenomenon and all vs boards are united by that "culture" with eachother...and do not hold themselves to be part of any forum those sections are part of. You're not modding the OBD, you're modding the internet dadfight community..everywhere...you invited scrutiny on that level. I imagine some other sections like the Dragon Ball section have the same issue...you can't be a DB regular and an NFer or a CBR reg and a DB section poster, you're a DB fan..that happens to post on CBR or NF. you guys gotta be aware of this and tailor your staffs actions towards this...NF is too massive to have one unifying "culture" and one unifying approach to moderation and as long as you approach it like that, the problems we've all seen will continue to repeat themselves.

    which brings me to

    3, S mods and global mods should be subordinate in "rank" to section mods (and you can create hierarchy here if you want with a senior section mod being "the boss"), they should be here to help these guys out, cater to their needs and implement and enforce the policy these guys design to better keep the peace. Things would go a lot smoother, if someone like Iwandesu called the shots in the OBD and Santi or Panda in the DB section without any ambiguity. While these guys should be held accountable to some higher power for misconduct cases...its these dudes who have a better idea of what's happening in their own backyard and what needs to be done to keep it efficient.

    Not that I'm saying each section should have its own rules or no rules...merely that the global rules need to be enforced, not at the cost of the health and stability of this site. Deference should be shown as well, if a section Mod doesn't take issue with a thing, then an S mod from outside has no business infracting that thing unless its beyond the pale bad.

    You want to create efficiency that's founded on a common sense approach to modding, not some hyper PC, Tumblr style nightmare that's going to result in what's happening in the Cafe now...a bunch of users weaponizing the staff and the rules to attack users they don't like...or in the OBD where there's little trust..because of a total failure to properly understand the sections culture. That ain't gonna get better if you throw more rules at the forum, its going to get worse and worse until something breaks.

    no one wants that...all of us can agree on that.


    Because you personally, find them objectionable. Your distaste means little to me and does not trump my right to call into question say a Troon serving in the military (and yes I'm using troon deliberately to fluster you, my entire post here is that censoring mean words and not insanity is an act of insanity), your issues with people objecting to women should also be moot...unless they're going "kill all the bitches" not in a shitpost but as an actual matter of form.

    I'd much rather have hatred out in the open, suppressing it and "deplatforming it" as is so trendy now, only empowers it and makes otherwise good people, turn their head and listen.
     
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  13. Island In the Sun

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    You don't have a right to anything here. This is a privately owned message board.
     
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  14. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    And this is a brilliant argument to justify insane censorship based on sentimentality and subversive politics.

    Oh wait, no its not and im pretty sure soon, it wont even be a spurious defense. Laws change or social media company employees eat led

    Either or is going to happen in the next few years
     
  15. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    You should probably engage in your pedantry and censorship elsewhere Island...because your views on what constitutes acceptable expression are morally comparable to a Soviet political officer signing a suppression warrant on someone :zaru
     
  16. Es Ecole du Ciel

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  17. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    See I find Islands involvement in this thread questionable, as he was part of a group that has for several months now used the forum rules and moderators as a weapon to target us, with you being subject to an unethical ban that was over turned and me still being unjustifiably banned solely because a moderator is bitter because I won't appease him.

    This goes back to what I'm talking about, when the staff have zero accountability and the forum rules are set up in a manner that allows for someone like Island or his friends to rail road us purely out of ideological spite. Then it is inevitable that anything you do, will fail.

    No one should be forced to obey rules, that are designed to fuck with users, enforced by people who face no sanction for their actions. People inherently resist that and you're all back to square one.

    edit

    As long as this bullshit persists, we're not going to be able to progress.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  18. Island In the Sun

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    It is.

    Because it means that the staff can run the forum however they want, regardless of what rights you think you have here.

    Morality aside, there are always going to be rules about what you can and cannot say. Minimally, the staff has to get rid of whatever Google and Xenforo say are inappropriate and whatever's illegal in Germany.

    From there, it depends on what kind of forum they want to run. If every thread in the Café, for example, degenerated into an attack on Jews, Muslims, black people, or women, why would any of these people want to post here? If they had to justify their identities in every thread, why would they bother?

    If I were a woman, I wouldn't to post on a forum where people talk about women being inferior and deserving fewer rights than men.

    Whether or not they should run the forum this way depends on what kind of community you think this place should be. Once they meet minimum legal requirements and the requirements of Google and Xenforo, it comes down to what kind of place the staff wants to moderate and what the community would enjoy being part of. There are plenty of rules-free communities out there, but I assume the staff want a forum that's reasonably accommodating for as many people as possible, which for better or worse, restricts what you're allowed to say.

    I don't know anything about you guys being banned other than that I occasionally report posts that I think break the rules.

    As I'm sure you've noticed, I don't exactly get along with the Café staff either.
     
  19. Es Ecole du Ciel

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    So the cafe being ok with the genocide of whites in parts of Efricka is cool and doing left wing holocaust denial is A-OK then and bullying people who say its wrong?

    FOH island

    But you aren't and you would be a pussy if you think making a hugbox is appealing.
     
  20. Island In the Sun

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    You're right. That's not okay.

    I didn't say I wanted a hugbox.
     
  21. Unlosing Ranger Rebirth and destruction, again and again

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    The forums can come crashing and burning if you don't properly address this as if one had said right despite them not having it. That's the conclusion that can be made from your own words.
    Tools used to monitor can be used in malice in far more than the report system of NF.
    You don't want that.
     
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  22. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    no it really isn't, the fact that there is currently an international scandal over this very issue should tell you how stupid this line of thinking is.
    They're welcome to kill this forum with poor decisions, sure but if they're actually interested in not turning NF into an internet memory then they should recognize this is the wrong tree to be barking up.

    for however long Gweigle has a right to legislate language :zaru

    considering the 20 or so people who make up the Cafe regs have...at various points done exactly what you're hypothesizing to us...and worse including plotting our murders and no one, but no one bats an eyelash...my response is "They can fucking deal, mock the shit out of the racists and move on"

    that's because Island, you're infantilizing women. Meanwhile a Woman who has dealt with that in the real world like say someone in the situation ayaan hirsi ali was in...Wouldn't bat a fucking eyelash at mean words online.

    The problem is that "accommodating and inclusive" now mean, infringement on the rights of others, targeted harassment and dispossession.
    well considering they organize from your discord bro :zaru

    I'm glad, the Island I knew is still there and you're a decent human being. Meanwhile @mr_shadow is entirely okay with this...which brings me to my point.

    mods face zero repercussions for abuse and this is unacceptable.
    yeah you kinda did,
     
  23. Natty Lipstick lesbo

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    It might be hard to fathom, but people won't want to join a group that actively dislikes their existence or just straight up calls them inferior. Hug boxing isn't needed to be inclusive.

    Also just a need to mention, the forum doesn't have to bend over backwards for "free speech rights", in my experience this place hasn't been orwellian or controlling. You can cry about free speech rights on the streets, a private forum doesn't have to subscribe to that. Nor does it have to subscribe to your idea about platforming an idea.
     
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  24. Es Ecole du Ciel

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    Being inclusive equates to creating a hugbox and who the hell unironically says women are inferior? This is just more excuses to ban people who say a fact a mod might dislike naw
     
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  25. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    the problem is most of the people demanding inclusivity are unreasonable, violent, bigoted, twisted and at odds with 97% of the human race.

    At which point you're not talking about inclusivity, you're talking about forcing yourself on us at gun point and demanding we accept you and put you in a superior position to us or else. And I think I can speak for Es, Ranger and probably Sora when I say "over my rotting corpse"

    wait...aren't you dating an Admin? great we're probably going to get perm banned solely for disagreeing with you :defeat

    This...it comes down to suppression and deconstruction.
     
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  26. Natty Lipstick lesbo

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    Blanket statement towards not only the woman thing, it can cover the gamet to include religious beliefs, sexuality, gender identity and more.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear on my point or position! I'll try and make sure to elaborate next time. I have issues with my own vague statements sometimes, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  27. Natty Lipstick lesbo

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    I didn't call anyone bigoted, calling for inclusivity is just asking people to chill on hateful comments towards a group.

    You're putting lots of words in my mouth

    If I'm dating an admin, thats news to me. If you think I'm a dupe, that's kind of showing all you know.

    Moderation seems pretty hands off, people calling out bigotism is from the members themselves, isn't that the sort of self policing you want in terms of free speech?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  28. Island In the Sun

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    I can't say that I know what you're talking about, but if that's true, then yes, that's wrong. I don't post in a lot of the same threads as you guys.

    Do they?

    You might have notice that when you guys joined my Discord the other day, I didn't even know about it until somebody tagged me. I only moderate the Discord insofar as I do what the majority of regulars there ask me to do. Coincidentally, that seems like the same hands-off approach to moderation that you're asking for.
     
  29. The Immortal WatchDog don't step in my yard

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    I know you didn't call anyone bigoted, I'm saying a lot of the people calling for inclusivity are bigots, that it usually comes form a position of malice and its usually a prelude to discrimination against normality. What is often called "tolerance" really just means "fuck you and the seven point something billion like you!"
    given the kind of posts you make on average...I don't think I am.


    :zaru

    It's happened, while the Cafe staff, the Staff you want to hand the power to ban people for "hateful comments" as interpreted by them...are watching and nothing happens.

    I have no desire to see that, that's guaranteeing hatespeech and bigotry of a different sort will become the norm.

    interpreted
    1, yes they do

    2, I'm not sure how you can conflate, a call for free speech, diligence and ethics with "Let me do nothing while border line criminal actions happen in a popular section" or "Let me instaban a guy who showed up to shit post after my server was used as ground zero in a stalking and harassment campaign"
     
  30. Island In the Sun

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    Ideally, the section staff would be people who most regulars see as a fair arbiter of whatever global and section rules exist.

    You're right that the section is poorly moderated and that the section staff leave something to be desired.

    What criminal actions are happening?

    And yes, I think it's a reasonable comparison. I made the Café Discord so that I can keep in touch with the regulars and so that they could have someplace to talk that wasn't the Convo thread. I don't spend a lot of time on it, so moderation extends as far as the regulars asking me to make something happen. That sounds a lot like the moderation style you prefer.
     
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