1. The NF Anime Awards for 2017 are out! Go check them out here!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Stop Scrolling!
    Attention - When discussing new chapters of an anime or manga, please use a source from the official list of approved sources. If you would like to contribute to the list, please do so in the suggestions section.
    Dismiss Notice

Goku's Zenkais in the ToP

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by xmysticgohanx, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. xmysticgohanx Zoro > Law

    Messages:
    7,522
    Likes Received:
    746
    Trophy Points:
    543
    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Mexico
    Catdank Faction:
    Start of ToP
    Berserker Kale > SSJB Goku
    SSJ2 Cauli ~ SSJ2 Goku

    After first UI
    base Goku > SSJ2 Cauli (start of ToP) ~ SSJ2 Goku (start of ToP)
    SSJ2 Goku > LSSJ Kale > Berserker Kale > SSJB Goku (start of ToP)

    After second UI

    SSJB KKx20 Goku can fight with Jiren who uses power above anything sensed previously (includes Kefla and god Toppo)
     
    Tags:
    • Dislike Dislike x 6
    • Ningen x 1
    • List
  2. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    In the actual Japanese dialogue Goku, after going SSB against Berserk Kale, says that he'll put in a little more power (than the previously did, which is SSJ2).

    I don't think the SSB Goku that Berserk Kale fought was anywhere near full power.

    Also, do you guys realize the monstrous difference between SSJ2 and SSB? It was displayed even against Jiren in the first encounter. SSJ2 Goku could barely move Jiren's head an inch, while SSB got him to finally start moving and fight Goku.

    Saying that SSJ2 Goku after his first Zenkai is stronger than SSB Goku from the start of the ToP is absolutely ridiculous!
     
  3. xmysticgohanx Zoro > Law

    Messages:
    7,522
    Likes Received:
    746
    Trophy Points:
    543
    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Mexico
    Catdank Faction:
    proof?

    by my multipliers, a 16x difference.

    feats are feats.
     
  4. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Proof? It's the Japanese dialogue. You want me to write it down?

    How is the difference between SSJ2 and SSB a mere 16x gap, lol? SSJ3 is 4x SSJ2 and SSG is an immense boost over SSJ3. SSB is even implied to be SSGx50.
     
  5. Former Obd Lurker. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    17,912
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    513
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Reputation:
  6. DlAMONDZ Active Member

    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Reputation:
    Kale traded blows with SSG Goku multiple times, deflected his energy ball and despite taking a knee to the face didn't have a scratch on her

    SSG Goku >= SSJ2 Kale > Berserk Kale > Blue Goku

    If 113 SSJ2 Goku is > Blue Goku from the start of the ToP then so is Cauli. She was fighting on par with him and gained the upper hand at certain points too. She also dodged a couple of God Goku's attacks
     
  7. redrum

    Messages:
    19,023
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    1,119
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    even if we stupid lowball the difference between ssj3 and ssjg to just 2x, that still puts ssjb at 400 times stronger than ssj2 if we're going with the notion that ssjb = ssjg x 50
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  8. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    This guy knows!

    :Mshad
     
  9. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Kale couldn’t do a damn thing against SSJG. She had to use all her might to deflect a one-handed attack from him. Stop your bullshit Weiss.

    @xmysticgohanx You’re reaching cain level of terrible.
     
  10. TheWiggian World's Strongest

    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Flag:
    Germany
    Ssj2 - Ssb difference is 16x?

    Wtf is this guy consuming?
     
  11. Luiz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    29,932
    Likes Received:
    646
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Reputation:
    Unless one of the characters actually says that a zenkai happened, this is all headcanon.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  12. buutenks Active Member

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Reputation:
    I disagree, Goku was not using his full power as ssj blue. It even says in the official sub that he will let out more power. Later on we see a tired ssg overpowering a more powerful kale. Everyone keeps saying Goku is low on stamina, he is tired etc. Only after Goku goes all out along with Vegeta vs Jiren, it is mentioned by Jiren that his attacks are sharper, then Piccolo explains that the reason Goku n Vegeta r doing well vs Jiren is because they cant coordinate well and that confuses Jiren.

    Goku got stronger when he powered up alongside Vegeta vs Jiren, hence the ' your attacks are sharper' statement from Jiren.

    And dont use how well one does vs Jiren for a short time as a measuring stick. Since it is stated by his kaioshin that Jiren matches his opponent's strength and after that he overpowers them.
     
  13. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,372
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    568
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Reputation:
    Here is the definite improvement

    Episode 123 Blue Goku > Episode 109 ssb kkx20 Goku.
     
  14. buutenks Active Member

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Reputation:
    There is no actual statement backing it up tho. The only statement we have is after Goku goes kkx20 and attacks Jiren with Vegeta and Jiren says that their attacks have gotten sharper. Plus Jiren scared the blue out of Goku with a casual punch while showing a smal glimpse of his power.

    Ep 123 seems very familiar to how Blue Goku did vs Jiren in the special, held his own for a bit, then got owned, then used kkx20 and Jiren just flicked him away with his eyes. Based on the showings, ud say blue Goku from the special is stronger than the same kkx20 from the special, lol.

    What im trying to say is, they made it look cool but ultimately, it was just Jiren doing his thing, matching someones PL then overpowering them.
     
  15. Zef Dark Magician

    Messages:
    9,642
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Trophy Points:
    993
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Reputation:
    Goku had like 50 of them.
     
  16. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    So when we have a character blatantly doing better in later episodes than in previous ones against a STRONGER opponent, we're to conclude their power remained static unless we're spoon-fed the information?

    It was also said Goku was constantly surpassing his limits and Vegeta added towards the climax of the TOP that Saiyans were constantly doing that(showing himself, Gohan and Kefla in the flashback).
     
  17. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Dude, Belmod literally states in 123 after Jiren power up that he hasn't used that much power in a long time! That means that 123 Jiren was stronger than even the one seen in 110 against UI Omen Goku, yet Goku wasn't instantly crushed and managed to hold his own for a bit.
    Even a barrage of those machine gun punches couldn't take out a base Goku and then moments later he not only powers back into SSB, but goes SSBKKx20 as well.

    There is a clear increase in power and it is backed up by statements. Even before this episode it's states by Whis several times after Goku unlocked Omen that although out of stamina, he was gradually getting stronger throughout his fights.
     
  18. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,372
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    568
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Reputation:
    So blue Goku fighting semi decently against a Jiren using more power than he had in a long time means Goku somehow is the same power he was at during the special ?


    Episode 110 Jiren > 1st UIO Goku and he used more power in episode 123, I could argue as much power as 2nd UIO Goku if not more , then later Goku and Vegeta kept pushing him back and frustrating him
     
  19. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    ITT: I learned that statements take precedence over feats.
     
  20. JayDZ3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,372
    Likes Received:
    570
    Trophy Points:
    568
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Reputation:
    Also Jiren powered up AGAIN in episode 124 and still at the start of 126 was visibly frustrated by Goku and Vegeta and told Toppo to take Vegeta, theres no reason for Jiren to keep powering up if Goku and Vegeta didn’t improve past Goku’s level of kkx20 from the special
     
  21. Luiz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    29,932
    Likes Received:
    646
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Reputation:
    Damn right. I don't believe in "it's implied" logic.
     
  22. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Then you have no grasp of basic understanding. Statements are there to support and explain what happens. Not to make things happen. Feats override statements, not the other way around. Feats aren't "implied logic" either.

    Vegeta and Goku got stronger throughout the tournament. It didn't magically happen the moment Vegeta confirmed it.
     
  23. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Apparently some posters are dumber than a rock if they believe Goku & Vegeta didn't get any stronger throughout the tournament despite them forcing Jiren to power up numerous times as well as Vegeta himself stating how they surpassed their limits time and time again.
     
  24. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    I guess First Form Frieza from DBZ is also stronger than Jiren since the lizard one-shot a planet with a finger while Jiren never showed any destruction feats that come anywhere close to that.

    :conspiracy :conspiracy :conspiracy
     
  25. buutenks Active Member

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Reputation:
    They did, as stated by Jiren in ep 124 i think it was, but not to the degree some of you make it out tho. However, u want me to believe Goku got hundreds of times stronger in the ToP without adding UI in the mix?

    And he is still below Beerus? Ridiculous.
     
  26. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Why is it impossible? What's the arbitrary number for too much is too much? 10x? 15x? 200x?
     
  27. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    17,789
    Likes Received:
    5,313
    Trophy Points:
    3,393
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Non-UI Goku is very much still below Beerus, that's obvious.

    Oh, is it so hard to believe? When SSG back in BoG turned out to be just 0,001% of Beerus's power? Or when he gained SSB later which is implied to be SSGx50? Or how about when Goku gained SSBKKx10 and shot up in power again? Or SSBKKx20?

    Between BoG SSG and just U6 arc SSBKKx10 Goku there's already a 500x gap, yet he was still an ant compared to Beerus.
     
  28. Luiz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    29,932
    Likes Received:
    646
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Reputation:
    The only objectively verifiable fact is that he gave them a hard beating. But concerning the reason why he performed well, there is nothing but glorified guess work.

    And yes, exposition and statements don't make things happen. They reveal what and why. It is the difference between "Vegetto's fusion ended, but we don't know why" and "Vegetto's fusion ended because Goku and Vegeta aren't supreme kais".
     
  29. buutenks Active Member

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Reputation:
    I dont care about the number per say. What bugs me is this constant retcon of Beerus' power, Goku got a bit stronger pre u6, then he uses kkx10, still below Beerus, he got stronger in FT arc and has kkkx10, still below Beerus, beginning of ToP he has kkx20, still below Beerus, ep 123, regular blue is above kkx20 blue and still has kkx20 on top of that, still below Beerus, Goku then gets even stronger again and has kkx20 on top and is still below Beerus, he even gets 2 increases in power on omen UI and no mention of surpassing Beerus. Then masters UI, no mentions of surpassing Beerus, but if they have him still below Beerus, then the writing is garbage and ridiculous. I dont mind Beerus being stronger, but they should have a reason, like he secrelty trained or idk did some mind training.

    So i prefer to think he didnt get much gain in power out of MUI, so it makes more sense.

    Sadly that percentage was not stated, infact Beerus used 10% vs Vegeta. Ofc that got changed with each arc. Basically poor writing. All we know is what Whis said, that he never thought Beerus would have to use that much power vs ssg Goku.
     
  30. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    1,318
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    How the hell can it be glorified guesswork when the only explanation available is that they got stronger? If I ran 100m in 10s yesterday and in 9s today under the same conditions, obviously I got faster. Do I need to go the doctor to compare my physiology of yesterday to that today to get a confirmation when it's quite literally the only explanation? Then consider the show you have, Dragon Ball where the main gimmick is the characters consistently getting ridiculously stronger. Something that's been hammered down since the first part of the manga.

    Yes we all agree to that.
     
Loading...