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Hancock vs Vista

Datassassin

Floating
Mihawk is, under any objective estimation, a strength-peer of the Yonko and the C3. Vista (in what was visually a free-hit) couldn't harm a notably injured Akainu with the element of surprise on his side and Marco assisting him. He countered Ronse with multiple other people including Izo (554); Ronse himself was getting overwhelmed by Oarz (555), and then gets easily crushed by WB in the next chapter (imagine Ronse's self-confidence to try though).

Not even being shown or implied to have injured Ronse (with multiple forms of help against the giant) is just not a positive point for Vista, when Ronse was shown way below even Oarz Jr. Size in OP is generally irrelevant in clashes, you either have the force to repel the other side or you don't (or are choosing not to). Mihawk obviously was holding back immensely for simply-understood motives, but Vista had no such reasons to take it easy on random VAs. Oda firmly asserted that Oarz Jr, who was beating Ronse, was lazy murder material for multiple Warlords; Mihawk would blink and cut the guy down the middle.

Ronse got away from attacking Vista directly without a scratch, whereas anyone in Marineford who stepped to Hancock got kicked or petrified. There's nothing that puts pre-skip Ronse over pre-skip Sentomaru, who was roughed up by the haki empress (570).

Marineford was an inconsistent mess but there are reasonable guesses we can make about people in it. Hancock got praise from Sengoku and is presumably going to be active before the story ends, and she'd need to be at least able to box with a Vista-level person to be relevant. If Oda does Hancock's origins/monikers any justice, she's at the very least on Vista's level (and I think she'll end up above).
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
Mihawk is, under any objective estimation, a strength-peer of the Yonko and the C3. Vista (in what was visually a free-hit) couldn't harm a notably injured Akainu with the element of surprise on his side and Marco assisting him. He countered Ronse with multiple other people including Izo (554); Ronse himself was getting overwhelmed by Oarz (555), and then gets easily crushed by WB in the next chapter (imagine Ronse's self-confidence to try though).
That can easily be reconciled though. Akainu either dodged or the moment was inconsistent, the same way Jimbei jumping in front of Akainu and blocking him physically was inconsistent. Either way, it's not strong enough evidence to suggest that Marco and by extension Vista are significantly below the C3, as Jozu and Marco both physically hit Kizaru and Aokiji. On top of the fact that Whitebeard himself missed Kizaru.
Not even being shown or implied to have injured Ronse (with multiple forms of help against the giant) is just not a positive point for Vista, when Ronse was shown way below even Oarz Jr. Size in OP is generally irrelevant in clashes, you either have the force to repel the other side or you don't (or are choosing not to). Mihawk obviously was holding back immensely for simply-understood motives, but Vista had no such reasons to take it easy on random VAs. Oda firmly asserted that Oarz Jr, who was beating Ronse, was lazy murder material for multiple Warlords; Mihawk would blink and cut the guy down the middle.

Ronse got away from attacking Vista directly without a scratch, whereas anyone in Marineford who stepped to Hancock got kicked or petrified. There's nothing that puts pre-skip Ronse over pre-skip Sentomaru, who was roughed up by the haki empress (570).
What are you even trying to suggest? Vista came out of the Mihawk clash with no scratches. Rakuyo came out of the Kizaru clash with no scratches.

This is laughable a>b>c logic. Ronse briefly clashed with both Izo and Vista, coming out unharmed, and because Oars Jr. beat Ronse and Oars Jr. is somehow "lazy murder material" for freaking Moriah, that makes Vista and Izo what, Moriah level? I don't know what point you're making, it's all over the place.
Marineford was an inconsistent mess but there are reasonable guesses we can make about people in it. Hancock got praise from Sengoku and is presumably going to be active before the story ends, and she'd need to be at least able to box with a Vista-level person to be relevant. If Oda does Hancock's origins/monikers any justice, she's at the very least on Vista's level (and I think she'll end up above).
You're making a weird jump with the bolded. Vista could be way stronger than Hancock for all we know and you have no reason to believe so strongly towards the contrary.
 

Datassassin

Floating
That can easily be reconciled though. Akainu either dodged or the moment was inconsistent, the same way Jimbei jumping in front of Akainu and blocking him physically was inconsistent. Either way, it's not strong enough evidence to suggest that Marco and by extension Vista are significantly below the C3, as Jozu and Marco both physically hit Kizaru and Aokiji. On top of the fact that Whitebeard himself missed Kizaru.
Marco and Vista clearly are substantially below the C3 aka they are not at all 'Admiral level' under any non-stan lens. Imagine multiple Admiral-level people, or people close to that level, joining forces...using surprise...capitalizing on their Admiral enemy being severely injured...and still looking like jokes. For the failure of the Vista/Marco surprise combo-attack: either an advanced Logia dodge or a COA trick, it remains to be seen. It was still visually a pair of strikes that did nothing to a surprised, wounded Akainu. Hurting Aokiji with a blindside-tackle also does not mean Jozu was remotely a peer of Aokiji's, and Marco's kick at Kizaru was blocked- zero damage whatsoever, despite Marco having to have used up a percentage of his regenerative pool in the exchange.

WB missed Kizaru due to his haki and body generally failing, as was evident to in-verse characters and the audience.
Vista came out of the Mihawk clash with no scratches. Rakuyo came out of the Kizaru clash with no scratches.

This is laughable a>b>c logic. Ronse briefly clashed with both Izo and Vista, coming out unharmed, and because Oars Jr. beat Ronse and Oars Jr. is somehow "lazy murder material" for freaking Moriah, that makes Vista and Izo what, Moriah level?
@Bolded: When you account for Mihawk's utter disinvestment in the fight, then it becomes "who cares?" Rakuyo was seen even less than Vista so he's a question mark, while Vista had more chances to show how good he was by far (Ronse, Akainu).

If "freaking Moriah" was able to critically impale Oarz, if DD was able to easily take a limb as payment for being attacked, and if brainless Kuma could hobble Oarz, how exactly does Vista's failure to harm or defeat Ronse become anything other than a neon negative for Vista? Yes, MF is a series of unresolved clashes, but people still were able to shine or be injured through such short clashes, like Smoker and Sentomaru vs Hancock. 3 of Hancock's fellow Warlords in MF humbled Oarz Jr, who was strong enough to overpower Ronse. Not hurting Ronse in an advantageous confrontation detracts from Vista's hype.
Vista could be way stronger than Hancock for all we know and you have no reason to believe otherwise.
The first post I wrote in this thread plainly expressed that Vista /could/ be stronger than Hancock. You've chosen to take exception to my support of Hancock likely to end up stronger. A character whose never looked out of her depth, who has been praised pre-and-post-skip for her power, who has a broken DF with room to expand, whose core theme entails mastery of haki as the story adds more and more to what haki can do, and who is set up as an ally of Luffy when the world turns left in the story's climax...is going to end up way weaker than a character letting VAs get away unscathed. Suuure.
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
Marco and Vista clearly are substantially below the C3 aka they are not at all 'Admiral level' under any non-stan lens. Imagine multiple Admiral-level people, or people close to that level, joining forces...using surprise...capitalizing on their Admiral enemy being severely injured...and still looking like jokes. For the failure of the Vista/Marco surprise combo-attack: either an advanced Logia dodge or a COA trick, it remains to be seen. It was still visually a pair of strikes that did nothing to a surprised, wounded Akainu. Hurting Aokiji with a blindside-tackle also does not mean Jozu was remotely a peer of Aokiji's, and Marco's kick at Kizaru was blocked- zero damage whatsoever, despite Marco having to have used up a percentage of his regenerative pool in the exchange.

WB missed Kizaru due to his haki and body generally failing, as was evident to in-verse characters and the audience.

@Bolded: When you account for Mihawk's utter disinvestment in the fight, then it becomes "who cares?" Rakuyo was seen even less than Vista so he's a question mark, while Vista had more chances to show how good he was by far (Ronse, Akainu).

If "freaking Moriah" was able to critically impale Oarz, if DD was able to easily take a limb as payment for being attacked, and if brainless Kuma could hobble Oarz, how exactly does Vista's failure to harm or defeat Ronse become anything other than a neon negative for Vista? Yes, MF is a series of unresolved clashes, but people still were able to shine or be injured through such short clashes, like Smoker and Sentomaru vs Hancock. 3 of Hancock's fellow Warlords in MF humbled Oarz Jr, who was strong enough to overpower Ronse. Not hurting Ronse in an advantageous confrontation detracts from Vista's hype.

The first post I wrote in this thread plainly expressed that Vista /could/ be stronger than Hancock. You've chosen to take exception to my support of Hancock likely to end up stronger. A character whose never looked out of her depth, who has been praised pre-and-post-skip for her power, who has a broken DF with room to expand, whose core theme entails mastery of haki as the story adds more and more to what haki can do, and who is set up as an ally of Luffy when the world turns left in the story's climax...is going to end up way weaker than a character letting VAs get away unscathed. Suuure.
I can't believe you are unironically using Dragon D Xebec's arguments. You come off as more intelligent than that.
 

Datassassin

Floating
I can't believe you are unironically using Dragon D Xebec's arguments. You come off as more intelligent than that.
I assure you, I do not try to mirror any poster's stances on here; if the material leads me to similar places in matchup threads as other people, then that's just what occurs. I'd expect people to use Ronse against Hancock if Hancock were in Vista's position in that scene.
 

TheWiggian

He, who greets with Fire
That's all Hancock got going for her. Some expectations and assumptions. Vista destroys until she gets something concrete.
 

Lee-Sensei

The Clown Prince of Crime
That's all Hancock got going for her. Some expectations and assumptions. Vista destroys until she gets something concrete.
I love Hancock, but I think people are wanking her. She’s shown nothing that would suggest that she’s as strong or stronger than Doflamingo yet. And Vistas probably on Doflamingo’s level if not stronger since he’s one of Whitebeards Commanders.
 

VileNotice

Well-Known Member
People keep comparing Hancock to Doflamingo as if power inflation isn't a thing. If Doffy wasn't an arc villain he'd be FM level by the time the final war rolled around too.
 

Captain Altintop

Captain of Cologne Warriors
Vista is around mid-lower part of YC2 - while Hancock is highest YC4 / lowest YC3 .

Vista should win around high (low) difficulty here. He is in no serious trouble, but will have to go nearly all out and win with few bruises, maybe 20-25% damage.
 
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