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"He is stronger than me now" theory

Discussion in 'Naruto Theories' started by Odlam, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    "HE IS STRONGER THAN ME NOW"

    I made this post in another thread, but I'm going to expand on it a bit and see what everybody thinks - if you can't guess this is about Orochimaru's comment about Itachi's strength, and all the paradoxes the comment created and my hypothesis on why it was made

    A quick review:

    Orochimaru says that getting Itachi to join him is an impossible dream, because Itachi is stronger then he is now

    Kisame says he cant compete with a Sannin, and the names of the last of the Uchihas and one of the seven swords of the Mist pale before his own

    Kisame admits he simply cannot fight with Jairaya at that level, but he is unsure about Itachi

    Itachi says very clearly that he and Kisame could at best tie with Jairaya and get all three of them killed, even with additional men (I'm assuming he means random flunkies, not actual Akatsuki members here)

    Kisame and Itachi both are making thier statements off of what they know of the legendary Sannin, we do not currently know if Orochimaru is basing his statement off of

    Kisame and Itachi were theoretically worked with one of the legedary Sannin in Akatsuki. His name was Orochimaru. We know Kisame did because he made a comment about Orochimaru's disappearance hindering the ceremony. Itachi would have been rather young at the time to have been in Akatsuki and extracting Bijuu's, but we can't rule it out completely yet.

    It has been repeatedly shown and hinted that Orochimaru is stronger then Jairaya historically. Sarutobi held Orochimaru to a higher standard, Orochimaru was able to defeat Jairaya and depart the village (visuals showed Jairaya to be in worse condition than Orochimaru before Oro's last attack was launched, and history shows he succeeded). Also the drugged Jairaya was beaten twice by the armless Orochimaru, once when he applied pressure to his neck, and again when Orochimaru grabbed him with his tongue and broke his ribs and knocked him unconcious for a short time.

    So why does Orochimaru feel his is inferior to Itachi, if Itachi feels he and Kisame together have no chance of coming out of combat with Jairaya alive, the best case scenario being they at least take him down with them. And they dont refer to Jairaya specifically, but rather Sannin in general, which includes Orochimaru. So if Itachi is capable of defeating a Sannin in single combat, why is he so certain a battle with one here with an additional Akatsuki member as backup? His comment was very clear in stating that they would both die in a straight forward confrontation, he made no mention of starting a ruckus or drawing too much attention being his primary concern with Jairaya, he said very clearly that they would die should they choose to fight him.

    Like I said, Im not going to make a judgement call here. Only Kishi knows. But nobody needs to come in here and act like they've been given the answer from on high and only they definitively know it, but here's my theory.

    MY SPECULATION:


    Orochimaru's full comment was about getting Itachi to join his cause. He said that if only Itachi had joined him, things would have been different. But that is an impossible dream now, because Itachi is stronger then he is.

    Kisame also knew he was no match for a Sannin, but he seemed unsure about if Itachi could or not. Itachi told Kisame even together they would not be able to match Jairaya, and he and Kisame later fled together during thier encounter. Kisame was once again puzzled as to why Itachi gave up the fight so quickly, and Itachi explained that his stamina was too depleted.

    My hypothesis is that in a full on confrontation, Orochimaru does remain the more powerful Shinobi, and obviously, being 33 years older, is vastly more experienced. That being said, I think he did actually try to take Itachi's body at one point. While he may have been the more powerful ninja, when he locked eyes with Itachi to paralyze him and do the body transfer, Itachi's strength of will was able to overcome the body binding technique that Orochimaru does with his eyes, and actually return the favor with a Mangekyo genjutsu. So Itachi may have actually defeated Orochimaru at like the age of 11-12.

    THINGS THIS THEORY SOLVES FOR ME:

    This would explain why he made such a statement about an 11 year old child. No matter how talented Itachi was, he was not even regular jounnin level by that point in time. So even with the Mangekyo, he would still be far below what Kakashi currently is now, which is still not strong enough to challenge someone like Orochimaru on equal footing. Notice this is not a judgement on Itachi's current level of strength, as Kishi as kept that ambiguous.

    And besides, its not like Orochimaru would challenge an 11 year old to pistols at dawn, it wouldn't be a duel anyways, and if it was one, itd be a slaughter. Orochimaru would want the body intact and strong, not cut to pieces or mutilated. That is most likely the primary reason why he employs his body binding paralysis on his transfer victims, so he does not have to risk physically damaging his future bodies. And in the case of a young MS user with such a formidable will, locking eyes with Itachi becomes suicide.

    This would also explain why he risked slapping the curse seal on Sasuke. That was a very risky manuever considering the survival rate, but it would prevent a repeat of such an event if Orochimaru is able to control his will through the CS, and thus prevent resistance, even if Sasuke should one day obtain MS.

    Summary for those too lazy to read long drawn out posts:

    Its about strength of will, not strength in battle. Itachi's will is stronger then Orochimaru's, hence Orochimaru cannot take his body.


    Please kindly dont neg rep if you disagree, its just a theory.
     
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  2. Alia_Atreides Mew...

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    I agree it could be, its a good point of view. It's sure good enough for me to explain those strange statments about power.
     
  3. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    I should have made a random pairing thread if I wanted responses I guess. Gah, what I get for making it so dang long.

    Shameless self bump.
     
  4. Shriken I want more Kisame!

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    Sorry I didnt finish reading your theory, but a thought came up, maybe to do the jutsu, you need to want to have it done on you, or atleast agree. Itachi would never agree, thats why he is stronger, but Sasuke, he atleast would agree to help him get stronger. Maybe thats what he meant, not that he cant beat him, but that he cant use his body.

    So basically what I'm saying is that the sannin are stronger than lets say, Itachi (lets not linger on a thought, its called a hypothetical statement), but oro cant use itachi because itachi wont agree, or rather let him. it could be that itachi is stronger than oro, but that wouldnt make sense regarding why he didnt fight Jiraiya, because if he wanted to he could take him out with Kisame there, atleast i think so.
     
  5. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    One thing you might want to consider is the concept of Sacrifice. It is possible that Itachi is stronger then Oro (I really dont think so but this idea did occur to me and I want to run with it) It is also possible that he is stronger then Jiraiya in a one on one confrontation. If I recall Itachi also stated if they fought Jiraiya with even more men on their side they would still die. If you keep the Sandaime's sacrifice in mind and the Manga theme of sacrificing to protect your comrades in mind an idea forms.

    Jiraiya would gladly use a suicidal move to protect Naruto, at this stage of their relationship he might even kill Naruto to stop Akatsuki from getting him. The bad guy's flaw in most manga/anime/cartoons is that they have too live to win. They are not willing to die just to accomplish a goal (in most cases, not an absolute rule.) So Itachi can fight and may be win against Jiraiya, but if Jiraiya is willing to sacrifice himself aka "As Long as I take this bastard with me" he could kill Itachi.
     
  6. hiko Well-Known Member

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    Another thing people should consider is that Oro is one of the worst people in the Manga when it comes to assessing strength. I really don't understand how anyone can trust his opinion about who is stronger than who after the fight with Sarutobi, we clearly learnt then that Oro does not understand what strength is.
     
  7. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    Oro thinks strength is connected to number of jutsus known and ninja skill. Sandaime and Jiraiya think that strength comes from the spirit/protecting somebody precious/blah blah blah. The problem with Sandaime and Jiraiya's way of measuring strength is that it isn't useful in comparing characters since the character with more "heart" can win even if he's weaker in every other way. Jiraiya honestly thought that Naruto could beat Kabuto through his raw determination. He turned out to be right, but that doesn't make Naruto of the time stronger than Kabuto.
     
  8. Artuir RIP Jiraya :(

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    Erk. Don't forget we have a theories section for this kind of thing now. I made the same mistake because it is new and I totally missed it :B
     
  9. Zer0_UchiHa Member

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    i said something a little while ago in a post about itachi and assesing jiraiyas strength. that statment about how he would kill them and 50 other nins came from the anime, not the manga, in the manga it isnt anywhere near as one sided as that. kisame says that jiraiya might (might) be a match for the number one of the leaf and one of the mist's sevens strongest.

    know it could just be my translation of that chapter (i downloaded it from this site by the way :D) but that is what is said in volume 16, chapter 144, p 9.

    now reading that, and later when kisame asks itachi why he has to run away from jiraiya (sounding confused, sounding like 'crap itachi, why didnt u just kill jiraiya, why r u running away from him, i dont get u man, you are not making any sense' :p lol my view). itachi then states that he is tired and needs to rest, saying something about "until tsukiyomi becomes amaterasu he should not use it" (whatever that means :p)

    just form that alone, i view itachi as being stronger than jiraiya, but yes as said in this thread earlier, the power to protect and basically be a good guy, then of course, jiraiya might just do a suicide move that kills both himself and them two. but for strength alone, in terms of just a match, i feel that itachi would beat jiraiya, although it would be very close.

    so what do other people think? is it my scanlated version that is throwing me for a loop, or is it the crap translation of the anime. whichever way it is, i for one feel that the manga should be used as reference points for basing an argument (lol unless u want to argue abuot the fillers :p lmao like how strong is raiga bahahahhaha :p)
     
  10. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    Your scanlated version was mistranslated. The anime was much closer to the proper meaning. Still, it was sort of contradicted by Kisame telling Jiraiya that he knew it would come to a fight between them anyway and Kisame asking Itachi why retreat was necessary with Itachi's answer only referencing his exhaustion (mostly due to wasting MS on Kakashi and Sasuke) and not Jiraiya.
     
  11. slumpy doesn't need a Custom title

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    i think you are, right, for me itachi is a very great ninja, and for above the jounin's of konoha. and when he is introduced (at 17 a 18) in the manga, probaly at the level of the sannin. but i doubt that a 13/ 11 year old boy could defeat a sannin. but i think kisimoto wil show us this.
     
  12. geminis Active Member

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    Odlam, I've always thought this was a possibility either what your thery mentioned or an actual ninjutsu battle. I doubt Oro will base his comment about Itachi's power based on reputation since Oro's exceeds Itachi's. Oro probably tested Itachi's ability just like he did with Sasuke but tried to use his "killing Intent " jutsu just to get countered and suffer his own "killing Intent." I think this makes sense. Oro likes starring people down which is a no-no against Itachi.
     
  13. geminis Active Member

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    Yea just like the "eloquent theory" calling that sacrifice a "guardian/type jutsu" if I recall correctly. Thats why Itachi can only tie at best with Jiraiya. Deathgod > Itachi. Assuming Jiraiya knows how to use Deathgod or a jutsu similar to that one. I doubt that summoning Gamabunta will be enough to take out a full Itachi for some reason. Might sound like overkill but Maybe Itachi will just Fight Jiraiya on top of Gama's head so that wouldn't help just a waste of unnecessary chakra.

    Sory for the double-post I don't know if I can merge both of my posts now.
     
  14. Chamcham Trigger 光翼型近接支援残酷戦闘機“エヴァッカニア・ドゥーム

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    Wow another great theory. Well that statement was filled with a lot of paradoxes, but I do have to say that your reason seems to be the clrearest one to explain this comment yet. It's also rather unbaised as well.
     
  15. lekki Specialist

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    Odlam, I like it.
    It still keeps the Sannin at the top of the food chain and Itachi a formidable opponent satisfying both sides of the ongoing debate :thumbs
     
  16. Ingeloakastimizilian Dracos Icingdeath

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    A pretty good theory, could explain one of the most major... Plot holes that is currently in the manga.
     
  17. -GoW- seeing through shadows

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    I always said something like that. All things are contrary to Orochimaru's sentence. So I think its something like that - not actually power in battle, but will. Orochimaru from what we've seen according to flashbacks and comments is clearly stronger than Jiraya, was stronger and very dominant over Sandaime, killed easily Sand's Kazekage, was first choice for Hokage (above Yondaime) and never showed fear for no one. Im not saying - if he beats Jiraya he beats B, C or D. But I can't understand why would he say that a kid is stronger than him. Probably was that - he was stronger that him when he tried to controlled his mind and get his body.
     
  18. genjo sanzo FLCLtard

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    this theory is new?!?!?!:oh
     
  19. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    Well nice to see people are actually reading it now :p

    And ya, its not completely new, I've seen one or two people offer it up in random theory threads, but it made alot of sense to me and I've never seen an actual thread devoted to giving the concept an actual chance to stand on its own outside of a debate discussion where its quickly buried in responses that skim right over it.
     
  20. hiko Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree, but what you're talking about is a different thing to my initial point. It's not about comparing general relative strengths, but who can actually assess the strength of an indivdual nin more accurately. To keep your example, Oro would say Naruto could never defeat Kabuto, wheras Jiraiya knew Naruto could if his will was strong enough - which of course is exactly right. Now, if you had to ask either of those two Sannin for an assessment of, say Rock Lee's strength, who would you trust to give you a more accurate opinion?

    I'm not saying that Oro's opinion can't be trusted and Jiraiya's can though, just that most of the elder characters in Naruto have flawed opinions, but Oro's is flawed to the point that it renders them completely worthless.
     
  21. RAGING BONER Sexual Tyrannosaurus

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    look, i think the most rational answer would be to say that Kishimoto, at that point in the story, didnt know were he was going with the whole Akatsuki deal. he therefore left the strength of the charcters in a foggy haze.
    however, i feel that its safe to assume that the "master" akatsuki (the Itachi's and Sasori's of each duo) are at the same level as the sannin, and the subordinates (Kisame's and Deidara's) are just below but still above elite jounins like Gai, Asuma etc.

    even Jiraiya himself has acknowledged that there are akatsuki more dangerous than Orochimaru (and i know he's not dreaming that he's stronger than Oro). he's even compared their strength with his own when determining the effectiveness Anbu would have in stopping an Akatsuki attack.
     
  22. TenshiOni Active Member

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    Moving this to Theories. :amuse
     
  23. wolf la jingga Criminal By Instinct

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    If Oro was refering to Itachi's stregth of will then does that means I was wrong intepreting Itachi and Kisame statement's implied that Jiraiya was stronger than both of them and therefore stronger than Oro...

    That's so not cool.. Well only Kishi have the answer to his own riddles.
     
  24. slumpy doesn't need a Custom title

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    jiriary said to naruto, that he would face stronger foe's then oro. but was he refering to akatsuki? Or is kishi planning on other enemy;s then akatsuki, and oro?
     
  25. Akaichikyu jounin

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    I think that itachi is afraid of jiraiya seals and he know that he's a sannin and if he face him he will not go unscatted. itachi seems to want to end fight quickly by using high chakra jutsus.
     
  26. -GoW- seeing through shadows

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    He said "problematic" not stronger. When will people see that there is a difference between both terms? "Right now there are enemies more problematic than Orochimaru" - as in - for the time being, Oro is in secondary plan... we may have new troubles at hands (refering to Akatsuki's members Itachi and Kisame arrival). Why are they more problematic? Simple because they were after Naruto at that moment.
     
  27. NaRa Metally Retarded

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    Very nice interpretation.It''s the best one in this thread.
     
  28. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    Actually, something else just occured to me too

    Itachi has a single S-class mission, this occured while he was in ANBU correct? So he would be leading a squad that could possibly be acting as hunter nins?

    Perhaps his single S-class mission was a tipoff as to Orochimaru's location, and he and his squad acted as hunter nins - Oro would have provided the information as bait of course, to gain access to Itachi, but later realized he bit off more than he bargained for

    The trick would be how would he know that Itachi would be the one sent after him, unless he had someone in Konoha pulling strings of thier own *cough*Danzou*cough* within ANBU.

    Completely baseless theory, but still...
     
  29. Aman <font color='#0000A0'>Really?</font>

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    Nice theory even though i think i heard this before. :amuse

    I'll rep you btw not neg rep. :)
     
  30. Madara The Original Uchiha

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    The reason why Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi is best explained through The Elegant Argument.
     
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