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Hirzuen(old) vs Kakuzu.

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Gin Ichimaru's Shadow, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Not really.
    • Kakuzu wins in strength speed and stamina (matches in ninjutsu except he can spam large AoE and combine the nature elements).
    • Hiruzen isn;t IC to use genjutsu so that is out the window.
    • Hiruzen has a .5 higher intelligence but he's the one who has to figure out how the hearts work during the fight.
    • And durability isnt even listed, we know the Diamond Morph negates physical attacks (making Taijutsu less effective).
    • And Kakuzu is able to detach his limbs and have them wait underground to strike (Hiruzen doesn't know about)
    ** Nobody is getting finished quickly here. Especially not Kakuzu
     
  2. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    He tied with Yamatobi's elemental barrage.
     
  3. Maverick04 Susanoo's nose is a waste of Chakra

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    Kishimoto doesn't even use power levels..He's a story teller not a power scaler..It's just us fans who speculate over such details..Even if it is one of those powerscaling situations, the fact still remains that Hiruzen lacked stamina and couldn't do what he did as an Edo..For example, I don't see anyone use Edo Itachi's feats for regular Itachi..Coz both are different..So why is Hiruzen getting such special treatment??

    Ok..But that would atleast make his job easier!!.. Orochimaru wouldn't have shown resistance coz it couldve potentially incapacitated him for the Shikigami seal and Hiruzen couldve sealed him entirely instead of just his hands..And you said it yourself..If Hiruzen tries to use his clones, then he would be exhausting his chakra reserves..Kakuzu on the other hand would just be losing 4 of his hearts but would still have one..And he can also go to his Final long range form where his chakra level sky rockets..It took a rasenshuriken, an S-Rank ninjutsu, (which destroys on a cellular level by piercing the chakra network..Kakashi with his sharingan wasn't able to keep up with the number of attacks that happened in an instant) to take out Kakuzu and even then he was still able to mutter a few final words..What makes you think Hiruzen with his low stamina and exhausted reserves would be able to kill Kakuzu with Enma and clones? Kakuzu can easily overpower that old man..He blocked an attack from pseudo BM Yugito..Tanked a smaller version of Bijuudama..Knocked down a bigass iron door with one punch..Kicked Kakashi so hard that it knocked the surrounding trees
     
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  4. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    You mean Yamato ?

    Hiruzen may very well be superior in ninjutsu versatility because he is the professor , but he shouldn't be well above Kakuzu in that regard. Especially if we consider Kakuzu being able to combine several different type of nature transformations and spam them in a large AoE fashion almost at will without any notable stamina drawbacks

    Katon
    Suiton
    Fuuton
    Raiton
    Doton

    Then add in his durability/stamina advantage that both cancels out taijutsu and can force drawn out fights due to the number to hearts Hiruzen has to kill before gassing out while also dodging attacks and figuring out how Kakuzu's body works.
     
  5. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    Hiruzen should be able to combine elemental ninjutsu as well giving his unrivaled talent for Jutsu.
    Also, stamina issues aren't a problem giving Sandaime's much higher DC, furhtermore he has Shikamaru's level of intelligence meaning he can trick Kakuzu all over the way whenever he wants.
     
  6. walpurgis Burgoo ohtanishoheiohtanishoheiohtanishohei

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    hiruzen wins w/ elemental supremacy
     
  7. Blu-ray Moderator

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    They don't need to. It's not like they'll be fighting one by one here or flying off while Kakuzu and his other masks are nowhere to be seen like in Tenten's case. If Hiruzen fires off Wind Style at his Lightning mask, absolutely nothing is stopping his Firemask from countering it.

    That limitation won't become an disadvantage until after multiple masks are actually destroyed.
     
  8. Godaime Tsunade Well-Known Member

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    Hiruzen has to counter Kakuzu’s elemental blasts with his own if he’s to counter Fuuton-Katon explosions and Suiton-Raiton combos.

    But Kakuzu has more stamina, and Hiruzen needs Kage Bunshin to counter multiple elemental blasts at once.

    The thing is, Kakuzu can easily destroy Hiruzen’s KB while they’re busy countering elemental blasts, since they’re slower and weaker than the original, who is already a good bit slower than Kakuzu.

    And with such large portions of his chakra depleted like that, Hiruzen won’t be able to continue countering elemental blasts.

    I’d say Hiruzen manages to take out one or two masks, but he can’t land finishing blows without exhausting himself and dying.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  9. Matto Chosen One

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    You're holding Hiruzen to an outdated power scale that no longer applies. Directly comparing feats from different power scales results in inaccurate conclusions. His feats during the war weren't because he was an Edo Tensei; Hiruzen was simply scaled up to retain his place within the manga's power scale and narrative.
     
  10. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Though this may make more logical sense, its still fandom thinking with no canon backing and zero statements from Kishi himself.
     
  11. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Edo Tensei doesn’t give the user more chakra, it just regenerates the chakra they have used up over time in the edos main body. It doesn’t regenerate chakra in clones. Hiruzen’s Bunshin ability to use Goton relatively easy has nothing to do with Edo Tensei.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  12. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Usually when I make Hiruzen threads, it'll either be (Old) Hiruzen - From Part 1, or I'll say Hiruzen (w/ Edo Feats). I think its important to distinguish the two as the latter seems more impressive than Hiruzen who fought Oro..

    But that's just me
     
  13. Matto Chosen One

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    It's not. Rather, attributing his improved performance to being an Edo is fandom thinking.

    In Part 1, Hiruzen's battle against Orochimaru and the Edo Hokage was called "Hokage level" on multiple occasions. Due to power inflation in Part 2, it's often claimed that Hiruzen and the Edo Hokage were "low Kage" level, but that is directly contradicted by in-manga statements as well as character portrayal.

    So in Part 2, when Hiruzen has a chance to demonstrate his skills in the current power scale, he shows what "Hokage level" means. Nothing in the manga points to his improved performance to being an Edo Tensei. In fact, we have statements that suggest the opposite: Kiba highlighted Hiruzen's power by saying, "Don't underestimate the 3rd," while Databook IV emphasized his feat against the Mini Buddha as showcasing his worth as The Professor.

    Hiruzen was also lumped in with the other Edo Hokage when they created the "Hokage-level barrier" and when the Edo Hokage were noted as the Alliance's strongest soldiers.

    At no point was there any indication that the reason Hiruzen could hang was because he was an Edo. His power was consistently attributed to his status as a former Hokage. That is, his performance was in line with his previous portrayal.
     
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  14. Imopink1 Paint me on your cave wall.

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    Smh can’t believe people are actually believing Kakuzu out of all people is beating one of the OG Hokage
     
  15. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Terms like "elite" Jounin, "Low" Kage, "Mid" Kage etc are all fandom creations to help us debate with more accuracy in forums. None of this makes a bit of difference to Kishimoto, however.

    @RahulPK04 sums it up just fine here..

     
  16. savior2005 Well-Known Member

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    Old Hiruzen is underrated as fuck, the downplay on this forum is disgusting. He was fighting off the first and second hokage (admittedly weakened but still very strong nonetheless) and orochimaru at the age of like 75. Orochimaru himself would beat kakuzu.
    Old Hiruzen wins low diff

    Prime Hiruzen wins neg diff
     
  17. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    The feats we see of Hashirama & Tobirama in part 1 Edo are literally fractions (weakened is an understatement) of what they were really capable of. At best they seem to be Jounin tier levels in part 1 (Tobirama didnt even use FTG once for example)

    This thread was for Old Hiruzen. So, even though what he is capable of doing at that older age is very impressive, Kakuzu is a good match up for him.

    its more about styles than tier placing
     
  18. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Are you implying that Kishi considered Kakazu stronger than Old Hiruzen?

    They were explicitly stated to be Kage level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  19. Matto Chosen One

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    The terms themselves are fan made, but it's clear that, portrayal-wise, Hiruzen was meant to be significantly stronger than the average Kage. Yet he's consistently viewed on this forum as one of the weaker Kage.

    And no, Rahul didn't sum up anything. I already explained why holding Hiruzen to the Part 1 power scale is inaccurate and is not supported by in-manga statements, narrative portrayal, or the Databooks. And it's absolutely not "fact" that he couldn't have done what he did if he hadn't been an Edo.

    But I'm going to back out of this debate because you're flat out ignoring clear manga statements when you say the Edo Hokage were Jounin level. They were stated to be Hokage level, and the battle was described as Hokage level as well.
     
  20. narut0ninjafan Well-Known Member

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    Hiruzen wins

    He's more versatile with his elements since each of Kakuzu's masks can only use one element and if they get killed that's one less element he can use
     
  21. J★J♥ Vento Aureo

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    Kakuzu and Enma are basically same character
     
  22. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    From what I'm seeing on Kakuzu's side it seems people think one mask is superior to a Hiruzen doppelganger, which is a little ridiculous.

    Talk about outdated feats. Hiruzen's doppelgangers have some of the greatest durability feats we've seen in the entire series from anyone's doppelgangers.
     
  23. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    Hiruzen wins round 1 but loses round 2. Hiruzen can counter all of Kakuzu's abilities at a slightly higher level but he needs Enma to deal with the tentacles.

    One caveat: Hiruzen may lose if he stupidly tries to clash elemental jutsu against each other and wastes chakra like he did against Spiral Yamato instead of just countering them with their weaknesses.
     
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