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How happy you'd have been if Sasuke had...

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki' started by Batzzaro29, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Bontakun -Invincible- Moderator

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    I'd have been happy if Sakura actually succeeded in stabbing Sasuke after that Danzo fight.

    On one hand it's kinda nice to have one of the three not being so caught up in their ambitions as to kill their friends. On the other, if she was gonna put her teammates' lives on the line she should have seen it through. Disappointing moment that one. I wouldn't have minded if Sasuke died right there. He would have died because Sakura was strong in her duty to Konoha, and no one could blame her for that.
     
  2. Dean Ambrose

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    Would have been a good character builder but if Sasuke had done it to her his threats would have had merit.
     
  3. Keichi Hellfire

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    Absolutely happy.
    Sasuke owns in the dumpster.
     
  4. SakuraLover16 Proof of their love

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    What are you disagreeing with?
     
  5. Xel'lotath Thousand-Mile Flight

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    Ever read/watched Akame ga Kill? :cat
     
  6. Priscilla Fuwa Fuwa

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    its inevitable anyway..
    One does not simply kill the heroine.. even if the heroine is useless :zaru
     
  7. Raniero 『 』

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    Since apparently I'm the most irrational Sakura hater on this site: I'd, like, totally be happy, dude. I'd even throw a party in celebration.

    Serious answer? Stunned that Kishimoto even had the balls to kill off one of his main characters and probably feel sorry for her more likable fans.
     
  8. El Hit For the HORDE!

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    They should have killed themselves. That duo is poop.
     
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  9. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

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    But Sakura also drugged Sai, Kiba, and Lee to sleep right before she got there with the intention of taking the burden of killing Sasuke all for herself, to say nothing of the fake confession. It wasn't a strong duty to Konoha motivating Sakura to kill Sasuke; it was despair over her perceived inability to protect anyone. Sakura was so desperate to do something on her own that she wound up making things worse for everyone involved and doing the exact opposite of everything she stood for.

    Instead of protecting Naruto, she hurt him. Instead of saving Sasuke, she was inches away from killing him and may have contributed to worsening his already unstable mental condition rather than improving it when he caught her lying to him. And on top of that, she knowingly betrayed and abandoned her comrades for the sake of personal, self-centered relief through bloodshed; you know, the very thing Sasuke did when he defected. That Sakura is still technically affiliated with Konoha doesn't make her any better. Kakashi calls Sakura out for hogging the glory on their way home (albeit with Sakura's fault in what happened being played for laughs) and he is right to do so.

    It's worth noting that "being desperate to rush in and take all the burden onto yourself" is exactly the flaw Itachi calls Naruto out on during the war arc. Trying to do everything yourself means disregarding the thoughts and feelings of the people you care about, and that leads to hurting the very people you want to protect in the vast majority of cases. Itachi says that Naruto would become like "Madara" if he kept doing this. He later refers to himself as an example of this in his treatment of Sasuke. Guess what Sakura was doing the entire Five Kage Summit arc.

    IMO, Sakura should have never attempted to kill Sasuke in the first place. And even if I didn't think that, her actions leading up to the attempt and knowing that she's doing it out of despair and in part selfish satisfaction sour any possible justifications for it. But that's just me.
     
  10. Bontakun -Invincible- Moderator

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    True it wasn't all for Konoha. It was also for closure for Naruto and herself. And for Sasuke too she thought.

    Whatever the reason she should have thought it over and called it off, or gone through with it to the end.

    Personal closure isn't that bad of a reason. Better than Naruto's, "I'll be an idiot forever" philosophy. What if Sasuke wasn't a genocide victim but a hopeless revenge junkie? No need to drag both Naruto's and her own life down with him. Probably better to just leave him alone in that case, but Naruto would have none of that would he?
     
  11. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

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    Sakura doesn't get to decide what qualifies as closure for anyone except herself. That she was trying to make things better for Naruto and Sasuke too without honestly consulting them before making her decision is part of the problem.

    And in reality, killing Sasuke wouldn't have given either Naruto or herself any closure. It would have strained their relationship beyond what the fake confession already did and Sasuke's death would have inflicted trauma on both of them that neither would ever move on from. Sakura would have been consumed with remorse and Naruto would have to live with not only failing to save Sasuke for good, but also with the knowledge that his other teammate and sibling figure fell from grace in much the same way Sasuke did. Sai says that Naruto would hate Sakura forever if she went through with it, but he's wrong. Naruto would hate himself forever if Sakura killed Sasuke.

    "Personal closure" is code for "giving up on everything I've trained for" in this context.

    "Personal closure" is code for "purifying the Uchiha name by ensuring that no one will live to remember them" for Sasuke at the same time.

    "Personal closure" is code for "torture the brother I love and make him assist my suicide, with the intent of taking the truth to the grave" for Itachi.

    Personal closure is a cheap excuse that can be used to justify any number of things. I don't hold any moral worth to "personal closure" reasons. It's a neutral term; the actions someone takes in pursuit of closure and why they want this closure in the first place speak far more about their character.

    I don't know. I agree with Naruto in that I would rather be an idiot forever than hurt someone on purpose even once through being "smart". But I also personally believe that if I am smart, I should try using that intelligence to help as many people as I can. An idiot hurting someone can be forgiven for their idiocy; an intelligent person hurting someone has no excuse.

    And at the very least, "if being smart means giving up on people out of convenience, then I'd rather be an idiot for life" is a philosophy. "Personal closure" has no intrinsic worth on its own.

    It would have made no difference to Naruto. And it wouldn't have made a difference to Sakura either, since Sakura was operating without the truth about Itachi for the entire arc (and possibly later on too) and so didn't know why Sasuke had been driven to madness and in effect, actually saw him as a "hopeless revenge junkie". And the jury's out on the "revenge" bit, since as far as Sakura is aware Sasuke completed his revenge when he killed Itachi.

    What would have changed things is Sakura being told the truth about Itachi before the encounter with Sasuke. That information, whether true or not, helped Naruto reconcile his desire to save Sasuke with the latter's current actions by understanding him. Sakura needs that information for the same reasons. If she understood why Sasuke was doing what he was doing, maybe she wouldn't have been so quick to shoot the dog.

    No, he wouldn't. Naruto considers that just a cheap excuse for running away in chapter 470 when he tears down the fake confession. And while he never put it in the words I'm about to, he has a point. Nothing in life is free; if you want to obtain something, there is hardship involved in taking it. If you cannot handle the hardship, you cannot obtain what you want either. Those who truly want something need to be able to handle the cost. The cost of saving Sasuke is accepting that sometimes he's going to do terrible things before you get through to him and not letting that stop you from trying, no matter how terrible his actions are at the moment. Naruto recognized that cost at the end of Part 1 when Jiraiya confronted him with it and he chose to pay it. Sakura was never truly confronted with those costs until the Five Kage Summit arc, and between that and her lack of information, she was unable to handle the path she had already chosen and decided (until Naruto intervened) to abandon it.

    Naruto sees someone abandoning a goal because it's too hard for them as a statement of weakness and self-betrayal. To a certain degree, I agree with him, and Kishimoto certainly wants us to. I mean, I'm not going say I hate people who do this like Naruto did, but if someone comes up to me and tells me they've opted out of something because of how hard it is, I think "You should have thought of that from the beginning and not wasted your time dwelling on a mission you couldn't handle".
     
  12. Bontakun -Invincible- Moderator

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    Not honestly consulting each other is a problem for Sasuke too. Instead of all that evil laughter he could've explained that killing Danzo was important. Naruto's pretty honest but he tries to force his opinions on others too much all the same. The team communication is awful which is a big reason why they were in such a mess. It's not only Sakura.


    I suppose there are better things to aim for than personal closure. Like being a shinobi. Enduring and doing your duty. But as you know no one was actually able to do that. If Naruto and Sakura can't give up on Sasuke, they've to got do something about it.

    They could pursue him and beg him to stop to the ends of the Earth but there's a problem with that too...




    Hindsight is 20/20. At that instance, for all Sakura knows, they could've been chasing him forever and he would keep killing people, and neither her nor Naruto would be able to get on with their lives. They might even end up dead.

    It's totally acceptable to try for a goal as hard as you could and then, using the experience you've obtained, reassess whether that goal is still possible or not, and then give up on it if it is not. It's not so much giving up as being smart enough to realize you have other things to live for.
     
  13. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

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    Of course it's not only Sakura. Everyone should have been more honest with each other. I thought that was a given when I said that Sakura should have been made aware of the truth about Itachi. Naruto and Kakashi should have told her; whether it was true or not she needed the information to understand Sasuke's situation and make an informed decision about it, rather than continue on her desperate, reckless crusade that effectively amounted to ideological suicide.

    You're right, but neither Naruto nor Sakura ever really cared about being a Shinobi for the sake of being a Shinobi. Naruto became a Shinobi so he could make bonds with people and stop being alone through his quest to become Hokage. Sakura, in all likelihood, continued being a Shinobi for the sole purpose of getting closer to Sasuke and, later on, becoming strong enough to keep up with Sasuke and Naruto. Even Sasuke only bothered with being a Shinobi so he could become strong enough to kill Itachi, and when that wasn't working out he quit and sought power in other ways.

    Everyone on Team 7 was treating the job like a means to a more personal, emotional end. That has its own problems, but it's sort of unreasonable to expect any of them to try living up to the Shinobi ideal when none of them have "be a decent Shinobi" on their priority list in the first place. You could teach them why they should, but Naruto responded to that method with "That sucks. I'll change what being a Shinobi means instead!" when the issue is presented in the Land of Waves arc.

    For one thing, Sakura wasn't "being smart enough to realize you have other things to live for", largely because she was acting as if she had nothing left to live for. Her two reasons for living are called Naruto and Sasuke. She was actively planning on betraying one and murdering the other. Without either of them, Sakura has no more purpose in life and possibly kills herself. Sakura and Kakashi imply as much in chapter 693.

    Also, that's not what I, or Naruto, was criticizing. Giving up because you've done everything you could and nothing worked is an entirely different thing to giving up because you have lost faith in yourself. Doing everything you can and it not working is called running out of options. Losing faith in yourself is called ideological suicide.

    There is nothing wrong with abandoning a goal after you've done absolutely everything you could have reasonably done in pursuit of it and still failed. But that's not what Sakura did. She still had plenty of options available. She could have tried being more honest with Naruto and Sasuke. She could have refrained from knocking Kiba, Lee, and Sai out and taken on Sasuke together; in his condition at the time they might have been able to win, and then Sakura could insist on taking him alive and questioning him. She could have tried understanding why Sasuke was doing what he was doing rather than immediately jumping to the conclusion that he was beyond saving and she had to mercy kill him at all costs.

    But Sakura never entertained any of those alternatives and went for the most self-destructive route, because she was feeling like too much of a burden and was desperate to do anything on her own to make up for it. Sakura abandoned Sasuke because she abandoned herself. That is what Naruto takes issue with when he responds to the fake confession. You posted that Naruto and Sakura don't need to bring themselves down to save Sasuke, when the truth of the matter is that Sakura was bringing herself down by giving up on him. Sakura is objectively worse off without the unconditional desire to help Naruto and Sasuke motivating her. The Five Kage Summt arc is proof of this. You could say that Sakura's self-worth being tied to Naruto and Sasuke is a problem in its own right, but that's no reason to abandon either of them. That just means that Sakura should find self-worth independently and then use that newfound conviction to help them in ways she couldn't before.

    There's also the little fact that Naruto had yet to conclusively defeat Sasuke and prove to him that his method of bond-breaking for power isn't as effective as Naruto's method; that is, by trying to make and preserve bonds. Until that happens Naruto and Sakura have yet to exhaust all their options. Granted, Sakura can't exactly contribute to that method beyond healing Naruto to keep him from permanently injuring himself training and believing that Naruto can pull through and that Sasuke will listen (which is what Sakura resolves to do at the end of the arc), but still.
     
  14. Aduro Definitely not a villain.

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  15. Kayn New Member

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    Not sad or happy, just a bit surprised if that happened, she would get revived later anyways since she plays a part in the main story. And if she stabbed Sasuke, I think he wouldn't die with something like that, he would had escaped or something else.
     
  16. SakuraLover16 Proof of their love

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    Wow I enjoyed reading this I never thought of it this way.
     
  17. SakuraLover16 Proof of their love

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    You did rise like a Pheonix weeb. Amazing.....
     
  18. Bontakun -Invincible- Moderator

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    After the Sasuke stab scene, Sakura basically became a model Konoha ninja.

    Yeah Team 7 were awful ninjas. In Sakura's case in part 1 she was more concerned with winning the boy of her dreams. But you know it wasn't originally for Sasuke. It was for her, as the most popular Kunoichi, to win the most popular boy. She had her rivalry with Ino and everything.


    Sakura didn't imply that she had no other reasons to live. After she outsourced Sasuke problems to Naruto, she went back to being her ninja self. She was saving Konoha ninjas during the Pain invasion so much so that she wasn't even around Naruto when he got his ass kicked. Which is why Hinata had to step in.

    And in the chapters before 693 you can really see that she's no longer about Sasuke and Naruto. She was telling them she'll become Hokage if they can't get their act together. She was much more about the village.

    And in chapter 693, she basically said to Sasuke that she loves him and still believes he can come back. But she didn't rush in to stop him, or tell Naruto what to do. Once outsourced, the Sasuke problem was out of her hands. But that's not gonna stop her from letting Sasuke know he still has a home to go back to if he so chose. Sasuke being the selfless anti-hero that he was probably didn't put much stock in that, but it couldn't have hurt.

    Yeah her methods were fucked up :facepalm

    I don't think she was abandoning herself. I mean she gave up trying to seduce Sasuke, but a really big reason why she did the Sasuke hunt was because she wanted Naruto to be less burdened.

    Giving up on the teen romance isn't giving up on yourself. It's like she's saying, "I'm too weak to deal with the crazy bastard. Naruto it's up to you." Obviously if she thought that crazy bastard was all she had, she would just keep throwing herself at him until she died. But no, she went back to the village and mastered the forehead diamond thing.

    Manipulating Naruto with the fake confession isn't giving up on Naruto either. It's just her way of getting him to pursue more productive goals than chasing Sasuke.

    All in all, the Sasuke hunt was like the moment she started seeing herself and Naruto, instead of only Sasuke.

    Well Naruto probably has more stuff to try. But she never exactly liked it when these two fought. And how many times do you have to try before you say you've done all you can? Naruto fought Sasuke in the Valley of the End, and almost died. Then when they found him again in Orochimaru's lair, Sasuke told them to get lost. He was also massively faster than Naruto and could've killed him on the spot. Enough is enough I'd say.

    So yeah I think you're underselling Sakura a bit. She has a lot to live for outside of Sasuke and Naruto and did pretty well for herself, after all those fake confession and stabbing shenanigans.
     
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  19. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

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    But Sakura and Ino only started their rivalry when they discovered that they both liked the same guy. Yes, it was also about Sakura wanting to step out of Ino's shadow and become capable of defending herself even at the outset, but those feelings of inferiority needed the crush to manifest as competition.

    And there's no evidence that Sakura's popularity had anything to do with it.


    Nobody was around Naruto when he got his ass kicked. Naruto arranged it like that on purpose by telling the village through Katsuyu to stay out of his way. Hinata only intervened because she saw the fight from long distance with the Byakugan and her bodyguard was too injured to stop her.

    Sakura's absence wasn't because she was pre-occupied. It was because Naruto told her (along with everyone else) to stay put and thus didn't see the moment he needed assistance.

    That is not the impression I was getting.

    And it was never up to Sakura to decide what burdens Naruto should or shouldn't take. Which was one of my very first points.

    The main burden Sakura wants to relieve Naruto of is the POAL. When Sakura tells Naruto this in chapter 470, Naruto tells her he wants to help Sasuke, promise or no promise. Naruto was going to try saving Sasuke whether Sakura got the promise out of him or not; the POAL was an effect of Naruto's bond with Sasuke, not the cause. Sakura was too torn up over Tsunade's condition and the news about Sasuke to recognize this when Sai unwittingly guilt trips her.

    Sakura was feeling guilty over a promise that was never binding Naruto to begin with.

    Because Naruto convinced her that everyone on Team Seven including Sasuke could come out of this situation happily. And Tsunade woke up from her coma shortly after they returned. Sakura wouldn't have been able to focus on her training for the war without these things giving her peace of mind. Sakura is strong because of her bonds with Team Seven, not in spite of them.

    Which is why giving up on Sasuke is tantamount to giving up on herself in Sakura's case. Every time she resolves to/becomes stronger, it's because she's so invested in keeping up with / saving Sasuke (and protecting Naruto). She relies on it for everything. Without Sasuke she wouldn't have stopped treating Naruto like garbage. She wouldn't have cut her hair. She wouldn't have asked Tsunade to train her. And she wouldn't have defeated Sasori. Giving up on Sasuke means rejecting the reason she accomplished all of that and what she would come to accomplish later, like figuring out the White Zetsu clone raid, healing the alliance, and helping to defeat Kaguya.

    You mean like becoming Hokage?

    Naruto already gave his answer to that. "how can I become Hokage if I can't even save one friend?"

    Naruto believes he doesn't deserve to be Hokage unless he can save Sasuke, so he won't pursue the former until he's succeeded with the latter. He was very clear about this twice. The quest to save Sasuke isn't just to help out a friend in Naruto's case; it's personal confirmation that he's worthy of the title he wants.

    On another note, saving Sasuke is actually confirmation that Naruto has surpassed all the previous Hokage, since all of them failed / gave up on a comrade that would seemingly turn to irredeemable evil. Hashirama and Tobirama did this with Madara; Hiruzen and Tsunade did this with Orochimaru; Minato and Kakashi did this with Obito (to say nothing of Kakashi also giving up on Sasuke alongside Sakura momentarily). Since Naruto didn't just want to be Hokage, but the best Hokage, saving Sasuke is proof that Naruto accomplished what all his predecessors failed to do and is thus deserving of that distinction.

    That moment happened far, far earlier. Sakura started being nicer to Naruto and tried treating him fairly as early as the end of chapter 3, and realized how much she had to improve herself not to be a burden to either of them as early as the Forest of Death.

    Like I said, It's not enough until Naruto wins and Sasuke still refuses to listen. Naruto winning would be irrefutable evidence that Sasuke's way is wrong and that he needs to change for his own good.

    The end of the series demonstrates this in action. Naruto and Sasuke fight. Naruto just narrowly outlasts him. Sasuke sees that Naruto still hasn't given up on him. And thus Sasuke concedes that he was wrong the whole time and comes back willingly.

    Yes, she did pretty well for herself after that. I'm criticizing Five Kage Summit Sakura, not post-Five Kage Summit Sakura.

    Ultimately, I don't think I'm underselling Sakura. You were disappointed in her for not being able to pull through and kill Sasuke. I was disappointed in her (and to be honest, most of the K11 too for that matter) for trying to kill him in the first place, and saw her breakdown and failure as just an extension of the failures she had already accumulated for the entire arc up to that point (inability to answer Karui's questions, coming to the wrong conclusions regarding Sai's words, the fake confession, knocking everyone out to face Sasuke alone). It's too late to be disappointed in a stopped stab when nothing was going right for her all arc long.

    And no, that's not underselling. Sakura can do better than what we got in the Five Kage Summit arc. She has done better, even in Part 1, and she would go on to do better after the arc is over. But during that particular arc she was extremely conflicted and desperate and it led to her doing practically villainous acts. It's because I like Sakura most of the time that I hold her behaviour to a high standard and don't accept the same excuses some others do when she fails to live up to them.

    This is the same character who calmed Sasuke down when he used the Curse Mark the first time. The same character who broke out of the Mind Transfer Jutsu on sheer willpower. The same character who stared down a half-transformed Gaara without a hint of fear in her eyes to protect Sasuke. The same character who cured Kankuro from a previously incurable poison. The same character who took down a member of Akatsuki. The same character who punched out Animal Paths and healed many wounded when Pain invaded.

    Am I really supposed to think that it's okay for this character to give up on something she had been training her butt off for for years just because "Sasuke's an international criminal" and "Naruto (who, mind you, has been at the same mission for just as long and working just as hard at it) might get hurt" now? When Sasuke was already seen as a traitor deserving of death to most of Konoha at the end of Part 1, and that she responded to Naruto returning home after VOTE1 with the declaration that they'll save Sasuke together, and that she said she'd save Sasuke whether Naruto was able to or not when she saw the four-tailed form?

    No. That would be underselling Sakura. I treat Sakura's failures in the Five Kage Summit arc with all the gravity they deserve. To do otherwise would be to undervalue her accomplishments elsewhere.
     

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