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How strong is Shizune?

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Godaime Tsunade, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    Sometimes people place her as an Elite Jounin in the same tier as Part 1 Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, Kabuto etc.

    Other times people place her lower than that.

    Where do you place her on a tier list? Who is the strongest she beats?

    How does she fare against the following?

    1. Anko Mitarashi
    2. Kurenai Yūhi
    3. Base Gai
    4. Jūgo
    5. Dodai
    6. Sai
    7. WA Shikamaru

    Location: Sannin Battlefield
    Distance: 10m
     
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  2. Mider T Busting in and out of guts

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    Low-Jounin. What were her databook figures?
     
  3. Gianfi Well-Known Member

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    Jounin Level. May lose against all of the above, though she has a good chance against anko and kurenai
     
  4. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    Quite high.

    Ninjutsu: 4.5
    Taijutsu: 2
    Genjutsu: 4
    Intelligence: 4.5
    Strength: 2.5
    Speed: 4
    Stamina: 3
    Handseals: 5
    Total: 29.5

    Same overall total as Kurenai, for what it’s worth.
     
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  5. NightingaleOfShadows Well-Known Member

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    wonder how that happened, I mean Tsunade has a 4 in handseals, and Tsunade was the one who trained her, and Tsunade is still obviously the superior...
     
  6. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    Who knows. Shizune uses ninjutsu more than Tsunade does and has better Genjutsu knowledge, so maybe that’s why.
     
  7. Dr. White I'm a shapeshifter, at Poe's masquerade.

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    She's special jonin level with some pretty hax poisons. She loses to any competent jonin tbh. She might be able to beat niggas like hayate and genma.
     
  8. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Above Kurenai and beneath Asuma.

    Kurenai.

    Gai can beat her due to being most skilled in the area she has the least amount of skill in (Taijutsu) and being able to force a close-range fight, but depending on his knowledge of her fighting style he runs the risk of running into one of her attacks and if he doesn't knock her out in one hit she can heal herself.

    Jugo is a similar but not identical case to Gai. He's even more prone to running into one of her attacks due to lack of knowledge and a tendency to go berserk, but I can see him smashing Shizune even as he breathes in some of her poison fog and he hits harder than Gai does.

    Not sure about Dodai. He might trap her in a rubber ball but not sure where he goes from there. She would eventually just Chakra Scalpel her way out and they'd pick up where they left off.

    Shizune probably beats the others.
     
  9. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    She's a regular ass jonin.

    She's not even combat focused and her healing speed isn't extremely fast.

    She's basically the line between competent jonin and jonin fodder.
     
  10. JuicyG Well-Known Member

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    I view her as being very intelligent. But it was clear early on that sakura was surpassing her as a student with potential under tsunade. Perhaps shes 2nd rate combat but her medic skills, poison and intelligence can be helpful in other situations
     
  11. Shark 鮫仙

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    But Kurenai is a lot more skilled in Taijutsu and Shizune has Genjutsu to worry about.
     
  12. Crow First Mate

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    Shizune has the strength of a Special Jonin. We've seen her get caved in by Elite Jonin such as Kabuto, and also she and her team were able to trade blows with the Sound 4 and they forced them into using their Cursed Seals. I still think she loses all the matchups here though. We don't have enough feats for her, we've seen her utilize poison and her healing ability but I would need to see more concrete feats.

    Most of her fights she's lost or they were off-panel so we can't really accurately rate her. I feel like she can beat most Chunin so that classifies her as at least a Jonin but she's a low tier jonin.
     
  13. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Spoiler: My thoughts
     
  14. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    I’d like to think that Kurenai has more than just that one Genjutsu in her arsenal though. You can raise the point that “but she was up against Akatsuki and would have used her best moves”, but then none of the Jōnin used their best moves because the battle only lasted like 2 minutes.

    Kurenai’s skills are said to be comparable to Itachi’s and we’ve seen him use illusions more dangerous than Tree Bind Death. Also, the Databook mentions something ominous about Kurenai’s Genjutsu skills, something about her being able to lure enemies “to a place far beyond genjutsu”.

    On a Tier List, at least, I don’t think she deserves to be above Kurenai as Genjutsu experts are rare and even elite shinobi often don’t have good resistance to it eg. Kisame, Immortals Arc Naruto
     
  15. Speedyamell Lions don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep

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    Strong enough to be seen as capable of giving someone on P1 kakashi's level a good fight.
     
  16. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    My point was that she likely doesn't have one that's both quicker and more powerful than what she used. Why put Asuma in that position if she's got something even better up her sleeve? That's not a question we have to ask about the other three Jōnin.

    That has to be referring to their general know-how though. In terms of actual effectiveness Itachi obviously outdoes her because his best spells are related to the Sharingan which Kurenai doesn't have. Sharingan Genjutsu is generally more difficult for ninja to resist than normal Genjutsu and Itachi is a genius with the Sharingan itself. His feats are not transferrable to her.
     
  17. AJBeckyBlissRollins Well-Known Member

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    She's not on the same level as Kurenai who is an Elite jonin kunoichi.

    She's around Hayate or Genma roughly or at least stronger than them.
     
  18. Bonly Zero

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    I'd place at the lower end of Jounin lvl on the tier list, she's a good healer but we saw what happened when faced against Kakashi's equal in part one and she was clearly outclassed. Out of everyone listed I only see her having a shot against Jugo and that's about it.
     
  19. Aduro Definitely not a villain.

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    Poison is pretty underrated in the battledome, especially since she can use gaseous poisons or senbon. I think she'd draw with Anko, Kurenai and Jugo. If they get close enough to kill her or get tagged by a senbon, they will die of poison, even if they kill her before that. Sai and Gai would blitz and Dodai and Shikamaru have the range and intellect to avoid her attacks.
     
  20. wooly Eullerex BTW, Izanagi is a ninjutsu; chidori is a nin-taijutsu

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  21. Santoryu Judge of The Judges

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    Strong enough to be casually defeated by Kabuto. I consider Kurenai to be more impressive given her brief skirmish against Itachi, who was significantly superior to Kabuto.

    Shizune is probably stronger than your "average" Jonin, but the only one I can see her beating on this list is probably Anko.
     
  22. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    We got a pretty clear comparison of Itachi and Kurenai's genjutsu skill since the illusion he cast on her was the exact same one she had cast on him. Only difference is his genjutsu came out of a Sharingan.

    Despite the Sharingan enhancing the strength of illusions cast, she still broke out almost immediately. Even before Itachi could swing a kunai.



    One other thing: while it did take a while for Kurenai to activate her genjutsu on Kisame and Itachi, notice that she cast different illusions on each of them. It's not fair to say she took a long time to catch Itachi when we know she was working on two attacks at once. Another thing to note is that, while it took a while to activate the secondary illusions, her first illusion was actually making herself disappear and that happened in just the amount of time it took to weave handsigns. So, a negligible amount of time.

    Given that, it's not a safe bet to say she's going to be slow at casting illusions if her opponent is a single person, rather than two S rank missing nin.

    Shizune being able to break the illusion also seems irrelevant given the minimal effort required to cast it in the first place.



    In regards to Kurenai's overall character, while she hasn't shown anything too impressive, we have at least seen that she is very skilled in genjutsu and can cast her own illusions or break enemy illusions very quickly. Itachi called her illusion weak, but there's nothing to strongly say that Tree Binding Death is the best she can do.
     
  23. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    It was the exact same because what Itachi did was flip her own illusion back on her. It wasn't Itachi's illusion so there's no comparison to be made there.

    They're different steps of the same technique, not separate techniques.
     
  24. Itachiisinvincible Well-Known Member

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    She got defeated rather easily by Kabuto, who was on the level of Kakashi. She definitely isn't Elite Jonin Level.

    However, I don't view her as a Jonin fodder either.

    She should be in between those levels. She is most likely on a similar level (albeit maybe a little weaker) than Asuma and Kurenai. Her main role is support as a Medical Ninja, not battle.
     
  25. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    Databook entry for Itachi's genjutsu reversal: "One decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a jutsu with identical effects onto the opponent!!"

    So, it was pretty clearly Itachi's Sharingan genjutsu that hit her and not a normal genjutsu.



    Your second statement doesn't make sense. Unless you are wanting to say that making it appear as if your feet have sank into the ground is also an effect of the Tree Binding Death illusion. Which, why would you argue that?
     
  26. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Yeah..."a Jutsu with identical effects" means "the same thing". The Sharingan is being used but it's to do no more than put Kurenai in her own Jutsu. It's basically the Genjutsu version of Yagura's water mirror thingy.

    It happens in between her initial disappearance and the tree's appearance, which are obviously part of the same technique because she couldn't pop out of the tree behind the target if she didn't disappear from in front of them first. There's no apparent switching between techniques in the middle, it's all allowed by the same Jutsu.
     
  27. Matto Chosen One

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    I view Shizune as a greater asset to a Hidden Village than all of these characters. Depending how we look at it, she's either the 3rd or 4th greatest medical ninja in the world, surpassed by only Tsunade, Sakura, and probably Kabuto.

    Sakura didn't surpass Shizune until she perfected the Strength of a Hundred Seal during the War Arc, which means Shizune could have likely countered Sasori's poisons as well. Shizune was chosen to lead the autopsy of the Pain body, and she figured out the secret of the chakra receivers. She was also chosen to lead the Medical Division of the Shinobi Alliance. Her medical abilities are top notch.

    As for how she matches up to them in terms of combat, I'm not quite sure. She's probably more capable overall than Sai, Shikamaru, or Anko, and she might be around the same level as Kurenai. Kabuto thought that she was dangerous and a nuisance, so she's at the very least stronger than average Jounin fodder by a good margin.

    It's true that he defeated her quickly, but we should also remember that he was boosted by soldier pills. When Kiba took the solider pill during the Chunin Exam, his boost allowed him to start dominating his fight against Naruto with ease. And unboosted, Kabuto already had Kakashi nervous.
     
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  28. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    The effect of the genjutsu cast back may be the same, but that doesn't mean that the power is the same.



    Genjutsu doesn't need to occur in a step-wise fashion. The databook entry for Tree Binding Death also doesn't indicate anything other than the tree itself was part of the illusion. Whether you kill or interrogate them isn't even a part of the illusion. It's just the tree.

    There doesn't need to be an indication of different techniques being used. Mainly because sinking the opponent's feet into the ground or making yourself disappear aren't actual jutsu. They're just generic effects made through genjutsu. Not everything has to be a defined technique with its own name. That's why certain genjutsu cast with the Sharingan have names and plenty of others cast with Sharingan are not named or identified.
     
  29. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    In all likelihood it does considering that "effect" most commonly refers to either the results or potency of something.

    So? They can occur that way just as any other category of techniques, so that's not reason to believe that what we saw were separate spells as opposed to different parts of a single technique.

    And it shouldn't need to. The manifestation of the tree itself gets the emphasis because it's the final step.

    Backtracking now? You originally said that Kurenai casted three different illusions, which would mean three different Genjutsu. If you're admitting that she didn't actually do such a thing I have to wonder why you're bothering to argue against the notion that those effects each came from the same Jubaku Satsu.

    They're all under the umbrella of "Genjutsu: Sharingan".
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  30. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    The same jutsu cast from two different people won't necessarily have the same power. Especially when talking about genjutsu and the Sharingan.

    While it may be the case with normal genjutsu reversal, in this scenario a Sharingan was used to cast an illusion through direct eye contact.


    Aren't you also stuck between these two points? If genjutsu reversal casts back an identical illusion and everything Kurenai did was part of tree binding death, why did Itachi only reflect the tree? Why didn't he also disappear or emerge from the tree's trunk to stab her?



    I'm not backtracking, you just really missed the point there.

    If it's not a recognized jutsu or maneuver, then any genjutsu effects Kurenai casts outside of specific jutsu are all under the umbrella of "genjutsu" Just like how any of the various illusions the Sharingan has made all fall under the umbrella "Sharingan: Genjutsu" unless we're told that what the Sharingan just cast was a formal technique.
     
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