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Idea for how the Uchiha Clan Massacre could have been better handled

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by Orochimaruwantsyourbody, May 12, 2018.

  1. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    The Uchiha Clan Massacre is usually held to be poorly handled if nothing else (often just considered a bad idea). It made the Uchiha look delusion for thinking they could defeat the village and weak for losing to two people (who were seemingly uninjured). It made Hiruzen look like a hypocrite almost on par with Itachi, and weak for allowing Danzo to get away with everything. It made Danzo look evil and fairly malicious, like he has no interest in the village if it comes before his own interest.

    Here’s an idea for how it could have been handled, which isn’t an endorsement of the existence of the plot.

    -As originally, the Uchiha Clan is planning a coup for the same reasons it was originally.

    -Hiruzen and the Council are aware, but believe it is more of an idea the Uchiha have planned for the future. Hiruzen and Danzo both want the Uchiha to remain a part of Konoha, so they still try a more diplomatic approach for now.

    -The Uchiha Clan doesn’t plan to actually overthrow the village yet, but are seriously considering the idea. Obito is later be revealed to be using Genjutsu and planting evidence to manipulate a small number of Uchiha into making up conspiracies against Konoha, helping tip things in an anti-Konoha direction.

    -Several additional minor grievances the Uchiha have are mentioned. One is that fertility has fallen tremendously the last two decades, causing a decline the Uchiha’s population and future influence.

    -The Uchiha Clan can be said to have several Ninja who are effectively Low or Entry Kage Level, and several more more elite Jonin. Basically Eight or so Ninja between Kurenai and Part Two Kakashi level.

    -The Uchiha know they have no chance of winning an open war, but know they have elite capable defeating and capturing several top officials with a surprise attack to force a quick change.

    -Shishiu makes a relatively simple mistake spying and gets exposed. When discovered, this exposes that Shishui isn’t alone and another Uchiha is a spy. The Uchiha who discover he is a double agent are not entirely sure how to respond and neither is Shishui, during a rushed decision a fight ensues where the Uchiha are not even sure if they are trying to kill or capture Shishui. Shishui is mortally wounded and uses one eye to use Koto, tricking the group into thinking he is dead.

    -This creates a crisis, where the Clan now knows that the village knows that they are planning a coup, and will soon figure out that they killed Shishui to keep it quiet. Now that they killed someone to keep it quiet, they once again panic and find themselves unsure how to proceed. A coup legitimately wasn’t their intention, but with the possibity of Konoha attacking, the time frame to launch a coup gives them several hours at best before Konoha discovers Shishui’s death through the other spy. The Uchiha assume the spy is a fodder, not an elite like Itachi.

    -Shishui is found by Itachi who carries him to Danzo and reports what happened. Danzo is outraged at what he views as a Uchiha murder, and alarmed by the time frame they now have to work with. Shishui tells Danzo and Itachi to take his eyes and use them to protect the village.

    -Hiruzen shows up and learns what happens as Shishui dies. Itachi tells them what the Uchiha plan is currently, Hiruzen and Danzo order him to go home so he can sabotage them if need be. Hiruzen still wants to give diplomacy one last chance and put all his cards on the table by being frank with Fugaku about everything.

    -Hiruzen makes his way to the Uchiha compound, but all the elites are unavailable due to poor luck on everyone’s part more than anything. Obito sees what Hiruzen is doing and with Zetsu’s help immediately plants misinformation requiring Hiruzen to leave the compound and head outside the village to look for Fugaku. If Hiruzen had come at virtually any other moment or had better cooperation from a random Uchiha, an actually meeting would have occurred that could have left both sides satisfied. The murder of Uchiha children and civilians is never approved.

    -The Uchiha begin their attack several hours later, sending most of their elite in three different teams: One to kill Hiruzen led by Itachi, one to kill Danzo led by several Elite Jonin and a Low Kage, one to capture the council led by several Elite Jonin and a Low Kage. Itachi reports this via a crow.

    -Hiruzen realizes he has been misled and rushes back too late.

    -Itachi leds his team into a trap set by Anbu earlier in the day. Several Jonin are killed by it before they get more than a few hundred meters from their compound. Itachi then betrays a few Asuma level Ninja while they are off guard, and kills a few normal Jonin when they are alone.

    -Obito intercepts the team headed for the Homura and Koharu. He negs them with an ambush and his superiority before the team comes near them.

    -Danzo and several of his men kill most of the Uchiha sent to kill him via ambush. The Low Kage puts up a fight, using Izanagi to stabs Danzo in his arm which later causes him to seek out Orochimaru to heal it, but Danzo still quickly defeats his foe with Koto and forces him to reveal what his plan is and how he escaped death. Then Danzo kills him. This inspires Danzo’s interest in Izanagi

    -Almost all elite Uchiha are dead, leaving mostly Chunin and Genin level.

    -Itachi and Obito head back, Obito gets there first and starts killing people with surprise attacks in their house, including the children.

    -Itachi heads back the compound, but accidentally sets off alarms. Itachi’s mission from Hiruzen was to sabotage the strike team sent to kill Hiruzen, but had no further orders after that or intent to exterminate the Clan. Meanwhile, Itachi makes a mistake by coming back and it somehow shows that he was the other spy. Itachi is attacked by some Uchiha guards after they figure out he is the other mole. Combine this with Obito actually killing everyone, and the Uchiha think an actual extermination campaign against them has begun.

    -Many of the young, recent graduates, and even academy students join the fight. Itachi starts killing in self defense left and right, killing several civilians and non combatants in the cross fire. Obito is cleaning up nicely meanwhile, with Zetsu spores quietly making things simpler.

    -Hiruzen has talked to Danzo and heads to the Uchiha compound immediately.

    -Itachi realizes that “Madara” is deliberately killing everyone.

    -Itachi makes it to his parents house in some desperate hope they can fix things. Rather than let Itachi kill them, they tell Itachi that they have failed their clan utterly, and that they disagree with Itachi’s decision but would rather die than kill their son or live with knowing what mistakes they’ve made. They tell him to look after Sasuke and kill themselves.

    -Itachi heads out distraught, Obito has killed almost everyone. Itachi goes outside to where Sasuke is hiding. He kills a few more Uchiha who come his way, almost indifferent to who they are and feeling dead inside at this point. Itachi recognizes the evil of “Madara”, and Tsukuyomi’s Sasuke to start his plan to strengthen him.

    -Obito tells Itachi he will contact him and leaves.

    -Hiruzen shows up. Itachi tells Hiruzen everything. Itachi vows to stop Obito, and asks what he can do. Hiruzen offers him the mission to infiltrate the Akatsuki after discovering that “Madara” is still alive and they have been duped.





    That’s it I think.

    IMO, this would have exonerated Hiruzen’s weakness and hypocrisy, Danzo’s fullblown evil while making him sympathetic, Itachi’s hypocrisy and some of his poor decision making, and the Uchiha’s poor decision making and pathetic performance. It basically turns it into an accident based on poor communication, outside manipulation, the Uchiha making a bad decision due to panic when they know their only hope of victory relies on a short time frame, and communication being completely cut off at by mistake at a key point.

    Thoughts? Would this have made things more logical?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  2. Dark Wanderer In the Shadows

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    I like it. Kishi's version of events was unsatisfying and some of the characters' actions did not make any sense.
     
  3. Ganta Not the Ganta from Narutobase. Stop Hollering PMs.

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    ambushes laid down by small groups of Uchihas with eye Genjutsu can cripple Konoha.

    Pein's decimation of Konoha is a single-handed effort. Was Konoha weak?
     
  4. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but when Konoha eventually finds out about it, the Uchiha are destroyed.

    The Uchiha Clan isn’t Pein. Pein invaded the village to snatch someone and leave. He lost two bodies and brought them back from the dead. He has a nuke ability and nearly a dozen summons shown on panel.

    If the Uchiha clan tried that and miraculously won, they can’t bring their members back from the dead and can’t occupy the village. If they miraculously won they would leave their country, which borders all four other great powers, crippled. The average Konoha ninja wouldn’t view an actual invasion as legit and the Uchiha would be overwhelmed when Ninja outside the village return.

    Even if they won, it would require losing a majority of the Uchiha and constantly monitoring all non Uchiha, while accepting that Fire Country is now a second rate power surrounded by first rate powers, and if the other Ninja rebel you will get kicked out of the country if they are feeling nice and murder you if you aren’t.

    Yes. Konoha had a plan in place that would have resulted in Pein’s quick defeat, but Danzo sabotaged it.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  5. Indra I can't stop eating

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    Most things Uchiha related are terribly written. I concur with your points.
     
  6. Yagami1211 The Mad Dog of Shimano !

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    So in the end it removes the flaws of multiple characters to make them better ? Why ?
    The massacre is interesting because some characters made bad decisions. According to Kishi Itachi is a good guy forced to do bad things because of circomstances. How does that works here ?

    You removed what was interesting in the first place.
     
  7. Djomla Magic Emperor

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    Edo Tensei Tobirama. Kill every single Uchiha who wanted to rebel. Kill every single man who wanted Uchiha dead. Rule with the Iron Fist. The end.
     
  8. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    You’re saying that good people can go door to door murdering children, civilians, and retirees, and other good people can order it to happen. They can’t just write that off as “oops”.

    You can’t claim to be a good person after it. Genocide isn’t just a character flaw that makes a hero more intriguing like Jiraiya’s self of steam or Kakashi’s depression. It means you aren’t a hero.

    The massacre is impossible to reconcile with Kishi’s relatively consistent portrayal of Hiruzen as the loving grandfather of the village who considers everyone in the village to be family if he massacres children when their parents rebel. Itachi cannot be reconciled as a hero when he carries out the order.

    The scenario as I write it is good people making poor choices in a bad situation. As it happened originally, it is deliberate genocide.
     
  9. Yagami1211 The Mad Dog of Shimano !

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    So what ? :drake
    Hiruzen never participated in the massacre. It was Obito & Itachi.
    Even though, Hiruzen never acted out of malice and his call for negotiations never passed since Danzou sought Itachi and told him to do it.
    And your scenario removes the blame from the people who participated.
    Genjutsu ? Itachi not killing his parents ? Yeah, no.
    I want my Kishi version, thank you.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  10. Zensuki Sasuke > your fav

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    1) Acting like Hiruzen isn't partly responsible for genocide :drake

    2) Konoha and other village getting away with all the blood on their hands :camby

    3) Still no one in the public knows about the Uchiha clan genocide :camby

    This ties with the larger wrong doing of the Naruto series and why it leaves a bad taste to many: none of the villages ever get exposed to the public or even punished for their actions.
     
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  11. Milliardo G.L.P.

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    Seems better than Kishi's version but there are some flaws still like having Itachi do the same thing with Sasuke. In my opinion Obito should be the one killing almost all of them. Maybe give him outside help with Akatsuki to make the Uchiha not seem so weak. Actually have Hiruzen and Fugaku meet as to make Hiruzen not look foolish.

    If you are going to go with the whole Itachi fills Sasuke full hatred without it being retarded then have Obito force Itachi to lie to him and claim he was the one who killed most of the Uchiha and their parents when really it was Obito. Then have him act like a dick as he usually does to Sasuke.

    Maybe have Danzo take advantage of the situation like killing Shisui and making a deal with Obito to leave Konoha alone and in turn he leaves Akatsuki alone. Both realizing they will break that promise later. Itachi is forced into Akatsuki from both sides(Spying for Konoha and Obito wants to use him to get to Sasuke still) and the apparent scapegoat for the Uchiha Massacre.


    Lol Actually have Itachi be a damn spy instead of doing nothing or only helping Akatsuki. So when Sasuke does fight Itachi and Itachi dies when he tells Sasuke the truth then Sasuke can put his full hatred into the real culprit Obito for what he did to his family and brother thus not making Sasuke look like a moron like what actually happened.

    Damn this feels kinda good to fix the retardedness of Kishi's writing. I may mull over on this further.



    Itachi was never a "good guy" and definitely not heroic. He was selfish and murdered innocent people because he loved the leaf village almost more than anything for some reason. Itachi didnt care about the Uchiha and he didnt care about bigger problems affecting all villages or people.
     
  12. Ganta Not the Ganta from Narutobase. Stop Hollering PMs.

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    Dear Fool: Konoha can't organize to military significance against its most powerful clan, if preemptively struck.

    I compared Pein in his role to Itachi and Obito at theirs'.

    Izanagi. Who knew?
     
  13. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Because you say so? How are the Uchiha going to prevent the village from figuring it out? There are entire clans on sensors. They can’t subdue thousands of Ninja without someone noticing. They also can’t inflict a 10+ to 1 casualty ratio needed to defeat the village in a fight. If someone like SM Jiraiya shows up virtually the entire clan will be annihilated.

    Then the comment is irrelevant.

    “The Uchiha lost to two people without putting up a fight. Konoha (no equivalence to Uchiha) nearly lost to Pein and Konan (no equivalence to duo), therefore the Uchiha were not weak” isn’t an argument.

    Before now, nobody. I don’t think even Kishi knew that the Uchiha can bring dead members of their clan back to life like Pein with new usage of Izanagi.
     
  14. Raiden Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree at all, and this would have made sense if the manga was written for older kids. They probably know it's ridiculous too, but the sales are so good that content quality is not a concern.
     
  15. oMeGa1904 Yomi one-sama

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    While I could defend many points of this manga the Uchiha genocide was the only one big flaw in Kishi's story. It's not only badly written, it's the source of the broken aesops inside Naruto and his characters with Itachi being the worst character propagating such notions.

    Actually this is a point I often see about Uchihas. They thought they could pull off a coup not a civil war. So they didn't have a delusion for winning against the entire village. Uchihas knew in an open civil war they would be stomped, instead they opted for a sneaky option. Uchihas at the end have the delusion that if the coup is successful, they would be accepted as new Konoha rulers.

    But after seeing the arguments from the other side I kinda question: "Or are they?" After all the impending doom scenario "a civil war will evolve in world war"; Danzo, Itachi and Hiruzen were proponents of; can also be used by the Uchihas to deter people from rebelling. This same argument is double edged and how it's used in the story left a bad taste in my mouth.

    With the Uchiha massacre in fact reinforces the reverse idea. It wasn't his own interest, he didn't gain anything from the massacre. He only has a warped idea of what the village is, which is probably even shared by Hiruzen. The only time Danzo come off as not having an interest for the village is when he let Pain destroy it and in Danzo vs Sasuke's fight. But Danzo was later whitewashed when Sasuke himself said "he did it all for the village" when talking with the edo Hokages.

    This is like even declaring an open war if discovered. Idk if this step is the best considered how pro-genocide were the elders and co. If elders knew they captured several top officials, they would even call for the genocide solution on the spot. For this to work the elders should have to be little OOC (from what have shown) or the spies, i.e. Shisui and Itachi not reporting the capture, which for me would have been an interesting twist, Itachi and Shisui reporting as much as to keep Konoha safe but not as much as for the clan to be wiped.

    I think the discovering of Shisui and Itachi as spies would have deterred Uchihas as a whole specially the second one (MS carrier) since they were the Uchiha's finest. Afterall you just plan for a coup with the resources you have and this is like reducing your mapower by half considering how far a MS user is from an average Uchiha.

    I think being frank with Fugaku would have solved the problem since Fugaku would have known the secret is out and he can't pull off a coup without secrecy. His plan is doomed.

    So this is the blood on his hands.

    Kinda liked but Itachi here is not the jingoistic zealot he actually is. So OOC for him tho.


    They would have to be OOC. But this is more vanilla. Not sure if better. The problem with Uchiha massacre in the manga isn't the broken aesops, it's the fact the narrative doesnt address those broken aesops. For example bring to light Itachi, Danzo and Hiruzen are closer than you think rather than differentiating just because one is more charismatic than the other (both Hiruzen and Itachi are in contrast to Danzo). A more honest narrative would have been better and deeper.
     
  16. Eliyua23 Well-Known Member

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    1. Danzo and Hiruzen were included becasue they wanted to make Itachi the hero and keep Sasuke as an adversary to the village to further push him away from Naruto to set up their final battle , if Itachi stays the evil villain who massacred the clan to get stronger or develop his MS no need to include the higher ups

    2. By making Danzo apart in the massacre it gave Sasuke another villain to face in his own arc which rivals Naruto’s fight against Pain and it gives him someone to kill where h can get revenge without it being someone completely evil funny how they the only guy he defeated/killed where as fights against the pure heroes he gets his ass kicked


    To me the massacre itself makes more sense if Itachi is evil which was the original intention to set it up as Sasuke’s revenge story in that it is brilliant storytelling and makes you invested in Sasuke’s character arc even more

    To me they could’ve had Itachi turn on atakuski have a plan once he talks to Naruto and sees he has a good place in the village and he becomes ill and is unable to achive his goal of overtaking Obito by obtaining EMS or just have him be killed by Sasuke and have his hero turn as an Edo but making his hero turn apart of some long reaching nonsensical plan that started for the sake of the village just ruined any credibility his character had
     
  17. Trolling Well-Known Member

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    @oMeGa1904 The Uchiha Massacre isn't the only big flaw in this manga. There's a number of them:

    1/2. Obito being alive and being Tobi.
    1/2. Tobi claiming to be Madara, but not being Madara.
    3. Kaguya being a character
    4. Sasuke changing his mind way too much and not being able to stick with his decision.
    5. Sakura (I started seeing a lot of flaws in Sakura due to another poster)
    6. The Uchiha gaining way too many powers
    7. Boruto (that show sucks horribly).
     
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  18. oMeGa1904 Yomi one-sama

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    I’m basing myself in the broken messages part, i.e. broken aesops this manga has. Messages implicitly and explicitly given to justify the Uchiha massacre which are contrary to our heros’ ideals, or they are supposed to. Other mistakes inside the manga such as power ups, asspulls, and plot holes aren’t of my interest as much as the former.
     
  19. PureWIN Mr. Prince

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    Everything related to the Uchiha massacre and Itachi makes my skin crawl.

    I concluded it was something extremely Japanese that is simply not possible to translate to Western morals and values. I have no other way of making sense of it.
     

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