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Idea for how the Uchiha Clan Massacre could have been better handled

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by Orochimaruwantsyourbody, May 12, 2018.

  1. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    The Uchiha Clan Massacre is usually held to be poorly handled if nothing else (often just considered a bad idea). It made the Uchiha look delusion for thinking they could defeat the village and weak for losing to two people (who were seemingly uninjured). It made Hiruzen look like a hypocrite almost on par with Itachi, and weak for allowing Danzo to get away with everything. It made Danzo look evil and fairly malicious, like he has no interest in the village if it comes before his own interest.

    Here’s an idea for how it could have been handled, which isn’t an endorsement of the existence of the plot.

    -As originally, the Uchiha Clan is planning a coup for the same reasons it was originally.

    -Hiruzen and the Council are aware, but believe it is more of an idea the Uchiha have planned for the future. Hiruzen and Danzo both want the Uchiha to remain a part of Konoha, so they still try a more diplomatic approach for now.

    -The Uchiha Clan doesn’t plan to actually overthrow the village yet, but are seriously considering the idea. Obito is later be revealed to be using Genjutsu and planting evidence to manipulate a small number of Uchiha into making up conspiracies against Konoha, helping tip things in an anti-Konoha direction.

    -Several additional minor grievances the Uchiha have are mentioned. One is that fertility has fallen tremendously the last two decades, causing a decline the Uchiha’s population and future influence.

    -The Uchiha Clan can be said to have several Ninja who are effectively Low or Entry Kage Level, and several more more elite Jonin. Basically Eight or so Ninja between Kurenai and Part Two Kakashi level.

    -The Uchiha know they have no chance of winning an open war, but know they have elite capable defeating and capturing several top officials with a surprise attack to force a quick change.

    -Shishiu makes a relatively simple mistake spying and gets exposed. When discovered, this exposes that Shishui isn’t alone and another Uchiha is a spy. The Uchiha who discover he is a double agent are not entirely sure how to respond and neither is Shishui, during a rushed decision a fight ensues where the Uchiha are not even sure if they are trying to kill or capture Shishui. Shishui is mortally wounded and uses one eye to use Koto, tricking the group into thinking he is dead.

    -This creates a crisis, where the Clan now knows that the village knows that they are planning a coup, and will soon figure out that they killed Shishui to keep it quiet. Now that they killed someone to keep it quiet, they once again panic and find themselves unsure how to proceed. A coup legitimately wasn’t their intention, but with the possibity of Konoha attacking, the time frame to launch a coup gives them several hours at best before Konoha discovers Shishui’s death through the other spy. The Uchiha assume the spy is a fodder, not an elite like Itachi.

    -Shishui is found by Itachi who carries him to Danzo and reports what happened. Danzo is outraged at what he views as a Uchiha murder, and alarmed by the time frame they now have to work with. Shishui tells Danzo and Itachi to take his eyes and use them to protect the village.

    -Hiruzen shows up and learns what happens as Shishui dies. Itachi tells them what the Uchiha plan is currently, Hiruzen and Danzo order him to go home so he can sabotage them if need be. Hiruzen still wants to give diplomacy one last chance and put all his cards on the table by being frank with Fugaku about everything.

    -Hiruzen makes his way to the Uchiha compound, but all the elites are unavailable due to poor luck on everyone’s part more than anything. Obito sees what Hiruzen is doing and with Zetsu’s help immediately plants misinformation requiring Hiruzen to leave the compound and head outside the village to look for Fugaku. If Hiruzen had come at virtually any other moment or had better cooperation from a random Uchiha, an actually meeting would have occurred that could have left both sides satisfied. The murder of Uchiha children and civilians is never approved.

    -The Uchiha begin their attack several hours later, sending most of their elite in three different teams: One to kill Hiruzen led by Itachi, one to kill Danzo led by several Elite Jonin and a Low Kage, one to capture the council led by several Elite Jonin and a Low Kage. Itachi reports this via a crow.

    -Hiruzen realizes he has been misled and rushes back too late.

    -Itachi leds his team into a trap set by Anbu earlier in the day. Several Jonin are killed by it before they get more than a few hundred meters from their compound. Itachi then betrays a few Asuma level Ninja while they are off guard, and kills a few normal Jonin when they are alone.

    -Obito intercepts the team headed for the Homura and Koharu. He negs them with an ambush and his superiority before the team comes near them.

    -Danzo and several of his men kill most of the Uchiha sent to kill him via ambush. The Low Kage puts up a fight, using Izanagi to stabs Danzo in his arm which later causes him to seek out Orochimaru to heal it, but Danzo still quickly defeats his foe with Koto and forces him to reveal what his plan is and how he escaped death. Then Danzo kills him. This inspires Danzo’s interest in Izanagi

    -Almost all elite Uchiha are dead, leaving mostly Chunin and Genin level.

    -Itachi and Obito head back, Obito gets there first and starts killing people with surprise attacks in their house, including the children.

    -Itachi heads back the compound, but accidentally sets off alarms. Itachi’s mission from Hiruzen was to sabotage the strike team sent to kill Hiruzen, but had no further orders after that or intent to exterminate the Clan. Meanwhile, Itachi makes a mistake by coming back and it somehow shows that he was the other spy. Itachi is attacked by some Uchiha guards after they figure out he is the other mole. Combine this with Obito actually killing everyone, and the Uchiha think an actual extermination campaign against them has begun.

    -Many of the young, recent graduates, and even academy students join the fight. Itachi starts killing in self defense left and right, killing several civilians and non combatants in the cross fire. Obito is cleaning up nicely meanwhile, with Zetsu spores quietly making things simpler.

    -Hiruzen has talked to Danzo and heads to the Uchiha compound immediately.

    -Itachi realizes that “Madara” is deliberately killing everyone.

    -Itachi makes it to his parents house in some desperate hope they can fix things. Rather than let Itachi kill them, they tell Itachi that they have failed their clan utterly, and that they disagree with Itachi’s decision but would rather die than kill their son or live with knowing what mistakes they’ve made. They tell him to look after Sasuke and kill themselves.

    -Itachi heads out distraught, Obito has killed almost everyone. Itachi goes outside to where Sasuke is hiding. He kills a few more Uchiha who come his way, almost indifferent to who they are and feeling dead inside at this point. Itachi recognizes the evil of “Madara”, and Tsukuyomi’s Sasuke to start his plan to strengthen him.

    -Obito tells Itachi he will contact him and leaves.

    -Hiruzen shows up. Itachi tells Hiruzen everything. Itachi vows to stop Obito, and asks what he can do. Hiruzen offers him the mission to infiltrate the Akatsuki after discovering that “Madara” is still alive and they have been duped.





    That’s it I think.

    IMO, this would have exonerated Hiruzen’s weakness and hypocrisy, Danzo’s fullblown evil while making him sympathetic, Itachi’s hypocrisy and some of his poor decision making, and the Uchiha’s poor decision making and pathetic performance. It basically turns it into an accident based on poor communication, outside manipulation, the Uchiha making a bad decision due to panic when they know their only hope of victory relies on a short time frame, and communication being completely cut off at by mistake at a key point.

    Thoughts? Would this have made things more logical?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  2. Dark Wanderer Lonesome Crow

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    I like it. Kishi's version of events was unsatisfying and some of the characters' actions did not make any sense.
     
  3. Ganta Not the Ganta from Narutobase. Stop Hollering PMs.

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    ambushes laid down by small groups of Uchihas with eye Genjutsu can cripple Konoha.

    Pein's decimation of Konoha is a single-handed effort. Was Konoha weak?
     
  4. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but when Konoha eventually finds out about it, the Uchiha are destroyed.

    The Uchiha Clan isn’t Pein. Pein invaded the village to snatch someone and leave. He lost two bodies and brought them back from the dead. He has a nuke ability and nearly a dozen summons shown on panel.

    If the Uchiha clan tried that and miraculously won, they can’t bring their members back from the dead and can’t occupy the village. If they miraculously won they would leave their country, which borders all four other great powers, crippled. The average Konoha ninja wouldn’t view an actual invasion as legit and the Uchiha would be overwhelmed when Ninja outside the village return.

    Even if they won, it would require losing a majority of the Uchiha and constantly monitoring all non Uchiha, while accepting that Fire Country is now a second rate power surrounded by first rate powers, and if the other Ninja rebel you will get kicked out of the country if they are feeling nice and murder you if you aren’t.

    Yes. Konoha had a plan in place that would have resulted in Pein’s quick defeat, but Danzo sabotaged it.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  5. Indra I can't stop eating

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    Most things Uchiha related are terribly written. I concur with your points.
     
  6. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    So in the end it removes the flaws of multiple characters to make them better ? Why ?
    The massacre is interesting because some characters made bad decisions. According to Kishi Itachi is a good guy forced to do bad things because of circomstances. How does that works here ?

    You removed what was interesting in the first place.
     
  7. Djomla Student

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    Edo Tensei Tobirama. Kill every single Uchiha who wanted to rebel. Kill every single man who wanted Uchiha dead. Rule with the Iron Fist. The end.
     
  8. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    You’re saying that good people can go door to door murdering children, civilians, and retirees, and other good people can order it to happen. They can’t just write that off as “oops”.

    You can’t claim to be a good person after it. Genocide isn’t just a character flaw that makes a hero more intriguing like Jiraiya’s self of steam or Kakashi’s depression. It means you aren’t a hero.

    The massacre is impossible to reconcile with Kishi’s relatively consistent portrayal of Hiruzen as the loving grandfather of the village who considers everyone in the village to be family if he massacres children when their parents rebel. Itachi cannot be reconciled as a hero when he carries out the order.

    The scenario as I write it is good people making poor choices in a bad situation. As it happened originally, it is deliberate genocide.
     
  9. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    So what ? :drake
    Hiruzen never participated in the massacre. It was Obito & Itachi.
    Even though, Hiruzen never acted out of malice and his call for negotiations never passed since Danzou sought Itachi and told him to do it.
    And your scenario removes the blame from the people who participated.
    Genjutsu ? Itachi not killing his parents ? Yeah, no.
    I want my Kishi version, thank you.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  10. Zensuki Sasuke > your fav

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    1) Acting like Hiruzen isn't partly responsible for genocide :drake

    2) Konoha and other village getting away with all the blood on their hands :camby

    3) Still no one in the public knows about the Uchiha clan genocide :camby

    This ties with the larger wrong doing of the Naruto series and why it leaves a bad taste to many: none of the villages ever get exposed to the public or even punished for their actions.
     
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  11. Milliardo G.L.P.

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    Seems better than Kishi's version but there are some flaws still like having Itachi do the same thing with Sasuke. In my opinion Obito should be the one killing almost all of them. Maybe give him outside help with Akatsuki to make the Uchiha not seem so weak. Actually have Hiruzen and Fugaku meet as to make Hiruzen not look foolish.

    If you are going to go with the whole Itachi fills Sasuke full hatred without it being retarded then have Obito force Itachi to lie to him and claim he was the one who killed most of the Uchiha and their parents when really it was Obito. Then have him act like a dick as he usually does to Sasuke.

    Maybe have Danzo take advantage of the situation like killing Shisui and making a deal with Obito to leave Konoha alone and in turn he leaves Akatsuki alone. Both realizing they will break that promise later. Itachi is forced into Akatsuki from both sides(Spying for Konoha and Obito wants to use him to get to Sasuke still) and the apparent scapegoat for the Uchiha Massacre.


    Lol Actually have Itachi be a damn spy instead of doing nothing or only helping Akatsuki. So when Sasuke does fight Itachi and Itachi dies when he tells Sasuke the truth then Sasuke can put his full hatred into the real culprit Obito for what he did to his family and brother thus not making Sasuke look like a moron like what actually happened.

    Damn this feels kinda good to fix the retardedness of Kishi's writing. I may mull over on this further.



    Itachi was never a "good guy" and definitely not heroic. He was selfish and murdered innocent people because he loved the leaf village almost more than anything for some reason. Itachi didnt care about the Uchiha and he didnt care about bigger problems affecting all villages or people.
     
  12. Ganta Not the Ganta from Narutobase. Stop Hollering PMs.

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    Dear Fool: Konoha can't organize to military significance against its most powerful clan, if preemptively struck.

    I compared Pein in his role to Itachi and Obito at theirs'.

    Izanagi. Who knew?
     
  13. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Because you say so? How are the Uchiha going to prevent the village from figuring it out? There are entire clans on sensors. They can’t subdue thousands of Ninja without someone noticing. They also can’t inflict a 10+ to 1 casualty ratio needed to defeat the village in a fight. If someone like SM Jiraiya shows up virtually the entire clan will be annihilated.

    Then the comment is irrelevant.

    “The Uchiha lost to two people without putting up a fight. Konoha (no equivalence to Uchiha) nearly lost to Pein and Konan (no equivalence to duo), therefore the Uchiha were not weak” isn’t an argument.

    Before now, nobody. I don’t think even Kishi knew that the Uchiha can bring dead members of their clan back to life like Pein with new usage of Izanagi.
     
  14. Raiden <b>PRESIDENT BIGBALLS</b>

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    I don't disagree at all, and this would have made sense if the manga was written for older kids. They probably know it's ridiculous too, but the sales are so good that content quality is not a concern.
     
  15. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

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    While I could defend many points of this manga the Uchiha genocide was the only one big flaw in Kishi's story. It's not only badly written, it's the source of the broken aesops inside Naruto and his characters with Itachi being the worst character propagating such notions.

    Actually this is a point I often see about Uchihas. They thought they could pull off a coup not a civil war. So they didn't have a delusion for winning against the entire village. Uchihas knew in an open civil war they would be stomped, instead they opted for a sneaky option. Uchihas at the end have the delusion that if the coup is successful, they would be accepted as new Konoha rulers.

    But after seeing the arguments from the other side I kinda question: "Or are they?" After all the impending doom scenario "a civil war will evolve in world war"; Danzo, Itachi and Hiruzen were proponents of; can also be used by the Uchihas to deter people from rebelling. This same argument is double edged and how it's used in the story left a bad taste in my mouth.

    With the Uchiha massacre in fact reinforces the reverse idea. It wasn't his own interest, he didn't gain anything from the massacre. He only has a warped idea of what the village is, which is probably even shared by Hiruzen. The only time Danzo come off as not having an interest for the village is when he let Pain destroy it and in Danzo vs Sasuke's fight. But Danzo was later whitewashed when Sasuke himself said "he did it all for the village" when talking with the edo Hokages.

    This is like even declaring an open war if discovered. Idk if this step is the best considered how pro-genocide were the elders and co. If elders knew they captured several top officials, they would even call for the genocide solution on the spot. For this to work the elders should have to be little OOC (from what have shown) or the spies, i.e. Shisui and Itachi not reporting the capture, which for me would have been an interesting twist, Itachi and Shisui reporting as much as to keep Konoha safe but not as much as for the clan to be wiped.

    I think the discovering of Shisui and Itachi as spies would have deterred Uchihas as a whole specially the second one (MS carrier) since they were the Uchiha's finest. Afterall you just plan for a coup with the resources you have and this is like reducing your mapower by half considering how far a MS user is from an average Uchiha.

    I think being frank with Fugaku would have solved the problem since Fugaku would have known the secret is out and he can't pull off a coup without secrecy. His plan is doomed.

    So this is the blood on his hands.

    Kinda liked but Itachi here is not the jingoistic zealot he actually is. So OOC for him tho.


    They would have to be OOC. But this is more vanilla. Not sure if better. The problem with Uchiha massacre in the manga isn't the broken aesops, it's the fact the narrative doesnt address those broken aesops. For example bring to light Itachi, Danzo and Hiruzen are closer than you think rather than differentiating just because one is more charismatic than the other (both Hiruzen and Itachi are in contrast to Danzo). A more honest narrative would have been better and deeper.
     
  16. Eliyua23 Well-Known Member

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    1. Danzo and Hiruzen were included becasue they wanted to make Itachi the hero and keep Sasuke as an adversary to the village to further push him away from Naruto to set up their final battle , if Itachi stays the evil villain who massacred the clan to get stronger or develop his MS no need to include the higher ups

    2. By making Danzo apart in the massacre it gave Sasuke another villain to face in his own arc which rivals Naruto’s fight against Pain and it gives him someone to kill where h can get revenge without it being someone completely evil funny how they the only guy he defeated/killed where as fights against the pure heroes he gets his ass kicked


    To me the massacre itself makes more sense if Itachi is evil which was the original intention to set it up as Sasuke’s revenge story in that it is brilliant storytelling and makes you invested in Sasuke’s character arc even more

    To me they could’ve had Itachi turn on atakuski have a plan once he talks to Naruto and sees he has a good place in the village and he becomes ill and is unable to achive his goal of overtaking Obito by obtaining EMS or just have him be killed by Sasuke and have his hero turn as an Edo but making his hero turn apart of some long reaching nonsensical plan that started for the sake of the village just ruined any credibility his character had
     
  17. Bookworm Well-Known Member

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    @oMeGa1904 The Uchiha Massacre isn't the only big flaw in this manga. There's a number of them:

    1/2. Obito being alive and being Tobi.
    1/2. Tobi claiming to be Madara, but not being Madara.
    3. Kaguya being a character
    4. Sasuke changing his mind way too much and not being able to stick with his decision.
    5. Sakura (I started seeing a lot of flaws in Sakura due to another poster)
    6. The Uchiha gaining way too many powers
    7. Boruto (that show sucks horribly).
     
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  18. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

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    I’m basing myself in the broken messages part, i.e. broken aesops this manga has. Messages implicitly and explicitly given to justify the Uchiha massacre which are contrary to our heros’ ideals, or they are supposed to. Other mistakes inside the manga such as power ups, asspulls, and plot holes aren’t of my interest as much as the former.
     
  19. PureWIN Mr. Prince

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    Everything related to the Uchiha massacre and Itachi makes my skin crawl.

    I concluded it was something extremely Japanese that is simply not possible to translate to Western morals and values. I have no other way of making sense of it.
     
  20. Rifulofthewest Active Member

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    Yeah, something japanese called fascism...
    In other mangas and animes appears similar situations, but never makes a justify for the genocide of a people.

    You only have to see dragon ball to understand that Vegenta and his race could not be goods, but they still not deserved being masacred, no one try to defend Freezer, but in Naruto, the uchiha masacre are "aceptable" or "their own blame", and the brain-whased Itachi is the biggest "Hero", and Sasuke the bad guy (i really think than kishimoto know that a lot of people uport Sasuke in is revenge, so he decide to make Sasuke an idiot genocide withou any reasong, even if he shows another resolution before (in the begining, he only wants to kill the leaders and people involved, but later, he wants to kill even the ichiraku ramen guy, because...potato).
     
  21. Boo-ray Moderator

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    This is really no different from the manga though.

    And this isn't necessary. Them being blamed for the Kyubi incident when they know they didn't do it and paying for the consequences years later with every diplomatic and civil approach failing was more than enough.

    Pretty sure they had far more competent members than that, and they weren't planning a civil war but a coup d'etat. They were going to overthrow a government of only 4 people. The civil war was said to be a possible consequence of that coup d'etat.

    They had a guy like Shisui around (who they assumed was on their side) and their Sharingan can cause mass mind control, so they didn't need to openly attack. Just look at Obito ruling Kirigakure for years with generic Sharingan Genjutsu. Now we have an entire clan capable of that.

    This is more convoluted than what we got, makes Shisui look incompetent, and the Uchiha heartless and unsympathetic.

    Why would he be outraged at an Uchiha's murder? Why would Shisui entrust him with his eye? Danzo being an evil, pragmatic schemer is not a problem that needs to be fixed.

    This only detracts from Danzo's character, detracts from Itachi's and Shisui's relationship by shoehorning in Danzo in his final moments and having Shisui believe in him the same way he believed in his best friend for no reason, and makes Danzo a good guy for no reason, despite his pragmatic assholery being critical to other plot points.

    We're back at this being no different as the original.

    "Poor luck" and random coincidence at such a critical juncture would just be bad writing. It's better that circumstances unfold as consequences of choices the characters make.

    Plus meetings would be scheduled ahead of time. Hiruzen wouldn't just show up at their compound out of the blue. There's also no need to make Obito even more of an Aizen-esque keikaku chessmaster. The Uchiha's grievances actually being legitimate only adds to why the massacre was so inexcusable. That shouldn't be taken away from.

    This is out an out worse than what we got because of the circumstance being a series of coincidences and misunderstandings, as well as with every character looking worse.
    • The Uchiha are attacking random civilians when all the wanted was to depose 4 people.
    • Itachi goes from reluctantly killing out of a sense of duty and to spare his brother, to not giving a shit and killing his clanmates because he's dead inside.
    • Mikoto and Fugaku kill themselves for no reason.
    • Hiruzen and Danzo go from ordering a preemptive strike to waiting too late and ending up with civilian casualties, making them incompetent.
    All this does is detract from Konoha's wrongdoing by making it Obito's doing instead of theirs, removes the agency of multiple characters like Danzo, Hiruzen and Itachi by having this all go down with none of their decisions leading up to it, in an attempt to free them of being stuck with the blame.

    The actual problem with the massacre was never it's execution, but that it even happened in the first place despite being easily preventable, and that the characters and the narrative praise Itachi for doing it.

    Things like it being covered up, Itachi being praised for it, and having your main character agree to keep quiet about it at the behest of the man that killed them to protect the clan's honour (as if sanctioning genocide against your own people wouldn't reflect worse on Konoha) are what should actually be changed.

    All this does is remove whatever nuance and conflict the massacre tried to have, as well as absolving the characters responsible for it of accountability and blame, and replacing it with an extra dose of confusion and incoherence.
     
  22. Rifulofthewest Active Member

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    Well I have been meditating as "doing well" uchiha massacre enough, since what kishimoto did seems to me an ode to fascism and creates many plot holes, as if Itachi was an idiot, Hiruzen a useless to which Danzo handled as he wanted and Obito doing things without meaning:
    First: Shishui and Itachi are double spies, but they are not part of Konoha or their clan, they want to improve relations between the village and their family. It does not make much sense that two young boys prefer their homeland to their family in such an extreme way. They have a conflict of loyalties, not as in the original, in which Itachi was totally determined. In the end, they refuse to kill their family
    Second: Obito has no reason to want the destruction of the uchiha clan, in fact during Kakashi flasback, he seems quite proud of being an uchiha.
    Being so long with Madara (which is like the personification of uchiha pride) would not make him hate the clan, but want them to be again like before: proud warriors. His quest for confrontation with Konoha is not to massacre them, but to force the clan to abandon Konoha and return to being the leader of a strong clan that he can use for his plan (pretending to be a madara) and also because if he loves his family and he thinks that konoha is going to destroy them (after all, Madara was sure of that, and would explain why he hates konoha and why his attack on her with the nine-tailed fox).
    Danzo is still the same, but Hiruzen really does something.

    The massacre is the same in the beginning: the high commanders realize that the uchiha plan a blow and Hiruzen begins to prepare some points to offer them to the uchiha to avoid it (offer that Fugaku is a counselor, that the uchiha village is not surrounded, etc) but Danzo believes that it is a sign of weakness and begins to prepare and other counselors to attack behind Hiruzen's back, only that neither Shishui and Itachi not accept to kill their clan, Danzo attacks them and Shishui dies facing him to that Itachi can flee (giving Itachi an eye to use to convince the clan to negotiate and not fight).

    Itachi is going to warn his clan that they must negotiate because they have been discovered and they are going to attack, and Obito stops him and tells him that he is madara uchiha and that the clan can be taken from there to another place. At first Itachi refuses and wants to remain in Konoha, but Obito tells him to think that he will be on the outskirts of town.

    Danzo begins the attack to the uchiha and these begin to fight, but they are losing. Itachi arrives and sees him, and understands that they have to flee and rethink the negotiations, so he helps direct the uchiha to make the children, the elderly and the women flee, and most of the uchiha warriors die, but not civilians, who get to where "madara" this, while being persecuted.
    Hiruzen, who is not an idiot, realizes what is happening and runs to stop Danzo and, offer the uchiha to accept what he was preparing (there wouldnt make another). So he arrives and orders them to stop (Danzo would not dare to oppose him at that moment, for which reason he obeys and the attack ceases).
    However, Obito convinces the surviving uchiha to leave with him and tries to attack the hokage, but Itachi stops him and, in front of everyone, agrees with Hiruzen that the uchiha can leave konoha, and they will not attack the village in the future. Hiruzen accepts, sure of being able to negotiate that they return but Danzo is not very convinced of this (he is perspicuos of Madara, and thiks that uchihas wants to revenge) and asks Itachi to leave his brother to have one security, but Itachi refuses until Hiruzen tells him that himselfs take care of Sasuke safe (which works, since in this world, Hiruzen does matter) so he leaves Sasuke in Konoha. And the plan to lied Sasuke is from Danzo.

    Obito drive the uchiha survivors to the rain village and convince nagato to let the uchiha clan there by show to him the uchihas as a minority oppresed by Konoha, but, when thay are asentated again, and Hiruzen try to opend the negociations again, the uchihas refuse, because Nagato and Obito convince that they are sure in rain village and not in konoha, and many uchiha want to take revenge on konoha (specially fugaku) and Itachi, afraid for a warl, kills him, so the other uchiha turn their backs and Itachi stays out of the clan, and Nagato expulsed him to the village. But Mikoto go to see him and pray to protect his brother before he go.

    Obito, who is angry because the uchihas are practically disapeared and he cant use they now, takes advantage of that and force Itachi to join an akatsuki if they want the rest of uchihas stay there (lying because Nagato dont let him make the uchihas away, but Itachi dont knows).

    Itachi dont want to help Madara, but he want to keep his family live and the treat with konoha (whitch includes that the clan had to stay in a localiced place, and Danzo believed he still had influences in the rain village), so he acept stay with akatsuki to espi they.
    So, Itachi go to konoha to get away with his brother after the hiruzen dead, but the council dont let him, so he change the plan to made Sasuke a hero in konoha by kill him (because he feels that he failed to his clan, the village, and his fathers...and he knows that his brother cant go away of konoha if he want to still having a treath -Itachi is the responsable for the "hokage suspend order to kill sasuke", seriously, it dont have any sense than Naruto convince Tsunade to do that-, in addition, his tuberculosis advance, so he really wants to die).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  23. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    Two things.
    One : Obito involved himself in the massacre not as Obito, but as Madara. He was supposed to be acting as Madara and make it as credible as possible to everyone. And Madara was damn butthurt about the clan. So Obito not acting like Madara would is completely out of question.

    Secondly : You give Itachi way too much freedom for someone who is convicted the ninjas are tools to be used. A blade in the service of someone else.
    And what about Danzou's threat of killing Sasuke if he doesn't comply ?
     
  24. Rifulofthewest Active Member

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    To the one: It doesnt matter if Obito is trying to looks like Madara, Obito still dont have any sense to being involved in the uchiha masacre, even if he have to pretend be Madara in front Itachi, he no need nothing of him, evit that situation was so simply as not walking around attacking Itachi group for any reasong, after all konoha dont know that he exist (and Danzo dont have enough power to try something against him). Even if you acept tha the reasong is because he want Itachi in Akatsuki, is dumb want him so desesperately, specially do all of these things for what he can be discovered, because at the end, the other akatsukis do a better job than Itachi, and it should be obvious considering Itachi dont want to stay here in first time.
    My point is no about Obito acting like Madara, my point is that Obito dont have any reasong to act like Madara, because he dont have any reasong to want being involved. The only explanation posible is that Obito is loyal to real Madara but this is obviously not.

    To the second part: I rewrite Itachi because i dont like his fascist message...and the hole plots around him, So ¿why i keep he like a puppet without any voluntee? Even this is a lie, Itachi was free to do that, he decided to follow orders by himself because he was a dangerous and stupid extremist. He can do a lot of better options during the masacre, the more obvious is tell the clan they are discovered in first time, that forced the negociations, or as simpli as tell Hiruzen all of Danzo acts (i think is pretty obvius that Danzo was conspiring against Hiruzen, if Itachi want to keep konoha safe for his teorical exteme loyality, he must talk with Hiruzen when he knows wath he is doing. In fact Itachi and Danzo should be justicied by traitors, i mean, konoha is a villlage in witch you can be kill anly to try to let the village, why they permit this?).
    Edo tensei Itachi clears this point in his last words of "im proud of murder my stupid family with his stupid ideas, sorry for lied to you, but a real pacifist keep the peace over the corps of disidents" instead of "im not proud of kill my family but i was forced to that after doing all what i could"

    In addition, i dont remember to say this before: war posibility is overreacted, first because people who use this as excuse are the asasins (Obito, Danzo and Itachi) thay are totally parcials; second because we had reasong to think that a lie: if the other villages dont attack konoha after kiuby attack or after Pain attack, theres no resongs to believed that they do; and last, because konoha are lost his principal warlords clan, tath should created a war if you follow thae theory of he "village began more inestable if uchihas attack" well the villege began inestable if you masacred one of the biggest clan and let the village whitout policeman and shocked. And the more important thing, uchiha clan knows that their own posibiliy of have sucses was the surprise element, if someone tell they that their plan is discovered, the clan will abandone the idea of a blow and only could negociate, so Itachi murder his family only because they arent brainwashed :apathy
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  25. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    Obito acts like Madara because that was Madara's request to taunt the ninjas villages into war against him. If his impersonation isn't credible enough, then it might risk the fail of their plan.
    Itachi's last words were about his love for Sasuke or I dare you to try and find a scan with your Itachi quote. And why would he try to come up with excuses for what he did ? Itachi is guilty of murder by proxy and changing that isn't okay in my book. Ninjas being tools at the service of someone else is what their jobs is all about and one of the core message of the story. Are you going to follow the orders without questions ( Like the ninjas of old generations, or are you going to rebel against what you think is unfair, like Naruto. ). If Itachi choose a third option then the story is pointless and the message lose all its impact. Itachi failed, he says it himself.

    And Danzo of all people said countless ninjas did what Itachi did. His job was to get his hands dirty and take the blame to prevent Konoha to be blamed instead.

    Not only your Itachi acts out of character, but what happens after need to be completely rewritten for the story to be somehow credible.

    I agree with the war possibility being overblown, but the Raikage mentions this in the manga. That weakened Konoha was an opportunity back then, IIRC. So the war possibility was real.

    You focus on one point you don't like and ignore anything else, regardless of the sense it makes in universe.

    Canon Itachi will never ever rebel against an order from a superior, regardless of what it is. It's in his character. If he's convinced it's for the greater good, or what he things the greater good is, he would commit suicide if asked. It's in the japanese mentality to never question orders and I'm convinced stuff like that happened in Feodal Japan. It's a bit fictionalized, but there is a part of truth here. There are stories telling about massacres and horrors perpetred by knights in the name of some religious crusades in europe. The message isn't really nice either, but denying it happened is follish. But when it's from something that is foreign to our culture, suddenly it's not okay anymore. I don't understand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  26. Milliardo G.L.P.

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    Sasuke was the exception to that. :grin


    If Itachi chose his people over Konoha (Only Sasuke got that privilege) I have to wonder how well liked he would be.
     
  27. Yagami1211 The Dragon of Dojima

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    The only weak point of an otherwise perfect ninja. And I mean that in the professional sense. Someone who can almost effectively completely supress his own emotions to accomplish his mission.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  28. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

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    Not true. His order was to kill everyone with the condition to spare Sasuke. So he just followed his order, leaving Sasuke alive as per order. That lipservice in which it says he chose his brother above the village is ridiculous in hindsight considering there was never a dilemma between "Konoha" and Sasuke to begin with. His order was a win-win solution keeping both "Konoha" and Sasuke alive and "well". The lipservice only became somewhat true when ET Itachi was being released.

    Which panel are you referring to?
     
  29. Milliardo G.L.P.

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    Well Danzo knew Itachi would never kill Sasuke and he used Sasuke as a means to bargain with Itachi to kill the Uchiha. Had Danzo included Sasuke with the rest of the Uchiha no way would Itachi follow that order completely it would be out of character. I believe thats why Danzo references that Sasuke was Itachi's only mistake when he fought Sasuke.

    You are right though Itachi did cleanly follow that order because it didn't conflict with what he cared about most. That makes me hate Itachi even more.
     
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