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In what ways is PA Naruto stronger than Jiraiya? Feats only.

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I used to think SM Naruto blitzing Asura put him far above Jiraiya in terms of speed, but @trocollo by sharing manga scans convinced me Naruto blitzing Pain there is a little suspect due to Pain taking ''longer to recover''. This is quite the finding for me, as I maintained that SM Naruto would beat the shit out of J-Man in a fight. This also makes Naruto's feats against the other bodies harder to scale, as we don't know how they'd actually have done at 100%. Yet Pain praises Naruto as Jiraiya's superior.

I'm convinced Naruto > Jiraiya by portrayal, this shouldn't even be debatable. Feats, though...got a little sketchy.

Here's what I've got:

1) Naruto can tank and casually shatter chakra rods. He does this twice, both against a relatively depowered Yahiko and one receiving Nagato's chakra and concentration alone. Jiraiya got stabbed and heavily injured by one. That makes Naruto's durability far higher and his strength too (dude would beat J-Man like a gong). Naruto does get pierced by rods but only and only when he LETS it happen, first to find Nagato and then to intimidate Nagato (under Kurama's control at that too). We know ninjas can amplify their bodies' strength and durability if they choose to (see: Lee blocking Sasuke in the Chunin Exams), it's clear Naruto simply didn't choose to then.

2) Naruto demonstrates the ranged ghost punches. Jiraiya should have access to them too (according to DB4), though Jiraiya never using them against Pain makes them look quite questionable. One could even argue Jiraiya CAN use them but not very well in combat (think how Minato can use SM but not very well in combat). Here feats undoubtedly favor Naruto. Ranged attacks definitely are a big thing in CQC.

3) Naruto has the Rasenshuriken, a vastly superior attack to anything Jiraiya ever displayed in terms of AP. This is a no-brainer.

4) Naruto does have superior speed to a degree. Even if Asura was weakened, he had rocket boots amplifying him to partially compensate. SM Jiraiya got tagged by Asura (yes, Asura had a surprise advantage, but he also warned Jiraiya and J-Man failed to capitalize - compare to Bee reacting to Itachi upon being warned by KCM Naruto, or other times people reacted to surprise attacks or movements like Ay4 dodging Juugo's laser cannon blast at point-blank range). SM Naruto blitzed Asura outright, in spite of being far away from Asura AND Pain being aware of Naruto's presence beforehand AND Naruto being right behind Tsunade.

Even if Asura was weakened, it's unlikely there'd be that big of a difference. The Pain bodies can still use all their signature moves, sans Yahiko alone for the time being.

5) Naruto should be able to enter SM much faster, due to the fact he has more chakra (remember how BM Naruto and Hashirama entered SM ultra-quick?) than J-Man (Fukasaku even notes the importance of Kurama's chakra in Naruto using SM). Feats support this too, Naruto enters SM immediately after his conversation with Minato in the spirit realm and is able to accumulate enough NE to turn Preta Path into a toad (more than enough to enter SM) even after being reverted to base by the same path. He also is in SM immediately around the time he arrives at Nagato's tower, even though he was in base after beating Pain and entering SM while walking is literally not possible. He also used up all of his clones.

Compare and contrast with J-Man literally being a sitting duck (minus his summon and maybe a clone) while trying to enter SM for a prolonged period of time. Even the temporary SM factor Naruto could override through making clones under smokescreens or the like and sending them far across the battlefield so they're out of harm's way and can be deactivated to recharge Senjutsu.

Thoughts? :hm

@MaruUchiha @Code @Lyren @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @Serene Grace @t0xeus @Kisame @Vegito @MustardPN @Mithos @trocollo
 
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Sparks

Repopulating History
I used to think SM Naruto blitzing Asura put him far above Jiraiya in terms of speed, but @trocollo by sharing manga scans convinced me Naruto blitzing Pain there is a little suspect due to Pain taking ''longer to recover''. This is quite the finding for me, as I maintained that SM Naruto would beat the shit out of J-Man in a fight. This also makes Naruto's feats against the other bodies harder to scale, as we don't know how they'd actually have done at 100%. Yet Pain praises Naruto as Jiraiya's superior.

I'm convinced Naruto > Jiraiya by portrayal, this shouldn't even be debatable. Feats, though...got a little sketchy.

Here's what I've got:

1) Naruto can tank and casually shatter chakra rods. He does this twice, both against a relatively depowered Yahiko and one receiving Nagato's chakra and concentration alone. Jiraiya got stabbed and heavily injured by one. That makes Naruto's durability far higher and his strength too (dude would beat J-Man like a gong). Naruto does get pierced by rods but only and only when he LETS it happen, first to find Nagato and then to intimidate Nagato (under Kurama's control at that too). We know ninjas can amplify their bodies' strength and durability if they choose to (see: Lee blocking Sasuke in the Chunin Exams), it's clear Naruto simply didn't choose to then.

2) Naruto demonstrates the ranged ghost punches. Jiraiya should have access to them too (according to DB4), though Jiraiya never using them against Pain makes them look quite questionable. One could even argue Jiraiya CAN use them but not very well in combat (think how Minato can use SM but not very well in combat). Here feats undoubtedly favor Naruto. Ranged attacks definitely are a big thing in CQC.

3) Naruto has the Rasenshuriken, a vastly superior attack to anything Jiraiya ever displayed in terms of AP. This is a no-brainer.

4) Naruto does have superior speed to a degree. Even if Asura was weakened, he had rocket boots amplifying him to partially compensate. SM Jiraiya got tagged by Asura (yes, Asura had a surprise advantage, but he also warned Jiraiya and J-Man failed to capitalize - compare to Bee reacting to Itachi upon being warned by KCM Naruto, or other times people reacted to surprise attacks or movements like Ay4 dodging Juugo's laser cannon blast at point-blank range). SM Naruto blitzed Asura outright, in spite of being far away from Asura AND Pain being aware of Naruto's presence beforehand AND Naruto being right behind Tsunade.

Even if Asura was weakened, it's unlikely there'd be that big of a difference. The Pain bodies can still use all their signature moves, sans Yahiko alone for the time being.

5) Naruto should be able to enter SM much faster, due to the fact he has more chakra (remember how BM Naruto and Hashirama entered SM ultra-quick?) than J-Man (Fukasaku even notes the importance of Kurama's chakra in Naruto using SM). Feats support this too, Naruto enters SM immediately after his conversation with Minato in the spirit realm and is able to accumulate enough NE to turn Preta Path into a toad (more than enough to enter SM) even after being reverted to base by the same path. He also is in SM immediately around the time he arrives at Nagato's tower, even though he was in base after beating Pain and entering SM while walking is literally not possible. He also used up all of his clones.

Thoughts? :hm

@MaruUchiha @Code @Lyren @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @Serene Grace @t0xeus @Kisame @Vegito @MustardPN @Mithos @trocollo
Was the bold not the result of Naruto's Shadow Clone at Mt. Myoboku dispersing after going 6T? And thus the pre-molded Senjutsu chakra was already there after Minato re-did the seal [].

It should also be noted that Naruto was still able to match the Animal Path, even after Preta and Asura were destroyed, despite Pain noting a marked decrease in the strength of his Sage Jutsu as his Senjutsu chakra depleted []. And the remaining Paths would have gotten proportionally stronger.
 
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trocollo

Well-Known Member
I'm convinced Naruto > Jiraiya by portrayal, this shouldn't even be debatable. Feats, though...got a little sketchy.
I guess this is from Pa's intial statement and this:
Yet Pain praises Naruto as Jiraiya's superior.
Wich should be when he said that "no one has ever pushed Pain this further" or something like that?
If that's it, wouldn't you think that a revived Jiraiya put in Naruto's place would also do better than the Jiraiya in Amegakure?

Other than this, what's your take on Pain saying he'd have lost to Jiraiya if the latter knew his secret? Cause this would go in contrast with Naruto stopping at deva path

I'm not convinced by Pa's statement took in that way cause it already fails with Minato, but it's not like I want to change your mind on it, just want to know how you fit in the other one with this to see if it works out

1) Naruto can tank and casually shatter chakra rods. Jiraiya got stabbed and heavily injured by one. That makes Naruto's durability far higher. Naruto does get pierced by rods but only and only when he LETS it happen, first to find Nagato and then to intimidate Nagato (under Kurama's control at that too). We know ninjas can amplify their bodies' strength and durability if they choose to (see: Lee blocking Sasuke in the Chunin Exams), it's clear Naruto simply didn't choose to then.
You're basing this on Naruto tanking a chakra rod but it didn't actually happen, a justification for him taking it one time and not another is a thing, but you're claiming he can tank it without we seeing him tank it
If it's for shattering, Jiraiya also broke the one that pierced him, but that should be another matter to durability

2) Naruto demonstrates the ranged ghost punches. Jiraiya should have access to them too (according to DB4), though Jiraiya never using them against Pain makes them look quite questionable. One could even argue Jiraiya CAN use them but not very well in combat (think how Minato can use SM but not very well in combat). Here feats undoubtedly favor Naruto. Ranged attacks definitely are a big thing in CQC.
Yeah this is pretty strange, it is a good counter to their shared vision, could be that Kishi tought of this move later on, I'm skeptical of the "can use it but not in combact", as using it in combact is the whole point, Minato even with his never had a battle in SM used it in combact, cause that's the nature of it

3) Naruto has the Rasenshuriken, a vastly superior attack to anything Jiraiya ever displayed in terms of AP. This is a no-brainer.
Agree

4) Naruto does have superior speed to a degree. Even if Asura was weakened, he had rocket boots amplifying him to partially compensate. SM Jiraiya got tagged by Asura (yes, Asura had a surprise advantage, but he also warned Jiraiya and J-Man failed to capitalize - compare to Bee reacting to Itachi upon being warned by KCM Naruto, or other times people reacted to surprise attacks or movements like Ay4 dodging Juugo's laser cannon blast at point-blank range). SM Naruto blitzed Asura outright, in spite of being far away from Asura AND Pain being aware of Naruto's presence beforehand AND Naruto being right behind Tsunade.

Even if Asura was weakened, it's unlikely there'd be that big of a difference. The Pain bodies can still use all their signature moves.
I also think Naruto should be faster, but this example, Jiraiya was blindsided with his guard down, there's no comparison to make in this case with Asura path, we don't even know what kind of attack that was, but by the response it created an explosion that took an arm or the arm was grabbed to land the explosion, and Jiraiya also got the feat of blitzing Human path, wich like Naruto wasn't what you'd call a perfect blitz, wich justifies the rest of the fight not having paths blitzed by neither

5) Naruto should be able to enter SM much faster, due to the fact he has more chakra (remember how BM Naruto and Hashirama entered SM ultra-quick?) than J-Man (Fukasaku even notes the importance of Kurama's chakra in Naruto using SM). Feats support this too, Naruto enters SM immediately after his conversation with Minato in the spirit realm and is able to accumulate enough NE to turn Preta Path into a toad (more than enough to enter SM) even after being reverted to base by the same path. He also is in SM immediately around the time he arrives at Nagato's tower, even though he was in base after beating Pain and entering SM while walking is literally not possible. He also used up all of his clones.
Yeah agree, like beside the Minato thing, that was beacause his clone with NE dispersed when he entered the tailed state

Another thing I want to add for PA Naruto is his base, where he can spam huge amounts of clones, and things I think you missed for Jiraiya are his bigger arsenal and his endeless SM, I also wonder about the general collaboration with the toads and the summoning of the two sages who seems special and requires some time, we didn't see Pa explain what's the deal with that in the training, I kinda thought that maybe you can summon them when you use sage chakra for summoning, but Idk
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
Did better against pain

1. did better in TAIJUTSU , killed a path with it . Something jiriaya couldn’t

2. Killed a path with ninjitsu something again Jiriaya couldn’t do
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Wich should be when he said that "no one has ever pushed Pain this further" or something like that? If that's it, wouldn't you think that a revived Jiraiya put in Naruto's place would also do better than the Jiraiya in Amegakure?

Absolutely not.

''No one has ever pushed Pain this far'' is a direct comparison between Naruto and all those that came before him (including Jiraiya).

It literally gets no simpler than that.

I'm not convinced by Pa's statement took in that way cause it already fails with Minato

It's pretty clear Fukasaku is comparing Naruto to Minato and J-Man as sages, and Naruto indeed did surpass him in sagehood.

You're basing this on Naruto tanking a chakra rod but it didn't actually happen

It did.

if it's for shattering, Jiraiya also broke the one that pierced him

Where?

Yeah this is pretty strange, it is a good counter to their shared vision, could be that Kishi tought of this move later on, I'm skeptical of the "can use it but not in combact", as using it in combact is the whole point, Minato even with his never had a battle in SM used it in combact, cause that's the nature of it

Using it in combat being the point =/ actually being good at it. Everyone learns jutsu for combat, Kakashi is famous for having mastered 1,000 jutsu yet hasn't demonstrated 1/10th of that arsenal. Minato never did use SM in combat until against Juudara and he told us why he didn't do so. Ergo, it's possible - and going by feats, probable - that Jiraiya had a similar issue with Frog Katas.

I also think Naruto should be faster, but this example, Jiraiya was blindsided with his guard down, there's no comparison to make in this case with Asura path, we don't even know what kind of attack that was, but by the response it created an explosion that took an arm or the arm was grabbed to land the explosion

Whatever kind of attack that was, Jiraiya failed to dodge it. I already provided multiple cases of people reacting and evading or guarding against ambush attacks.

and Jiraiya also got the feat of blitzing Human path

Jiraiya never blitzed Human Path. He did blitz Animal Path's handseals but Frog Song was active during that time.

like beside the Minato thing, that was beacause his clone with NE dispersed when he entered the tailed state

I don't think that's relevant, honestly. If Naruto's clone dispersed, he should have received a Senjutsu chakra boost in his mind realm (and, yet he is very clearly in base the entire time. This is a reply to @Sparks as well.

Other than this, what's your take on Pain saying he'd have lost to Jiraiya if the latter knew his secret? Cause this would go in contrast with Naruto stopping at deva path

Pain is referring to Jiraiya using knowledge of ''the real Pain (aka Nagato)'' to pull off a win - the coded message he sent to Konoha, the message Naruto didn't even know the answer to (in fact, Naruto learns about the real Pain much later on during the fight for himself, and tells Pain to bring Naruto to Nagato). He's not referring to knowledge of the paths themselves.

It should be noted that Amegakure is an entire battlefield full of hiding spots for guerilla style combat and Pain's own homeground, a place where Pain might not go all out and where he canonically went easy on Jiraiya until Frog Song ensnared three paths. If Jiraiya had intel on Nagato, he'd simply avoid the paths and go right for Nagato, then ensnare him using Frog Song. None of this applies to Konoha.

Naruto could have beaten Pain in Jiraiya's place with that secret info too IMO.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
@trocollo Here is Naruto shattering a chakra rod like a twig. Look at his hands carefully and the fragments he destroyed.



He literally uses the palms of his hands to shatter the sharpened ends of the rod. It's a strength and durability feat at that point.

Naruto uncovers the identity of the real Pain here.



Pain even praises Naruto for realizing this, implying Naruto didn't actually know of the real Pain beforehand.



@Sparks Naruto is in base during his conversation with Minato.

 
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Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Did better against pain

1. did better in TAIJUTSU , killed a path with it . Something jiriaya couldn’t

2. Killed a path with ninjitsu something again Jiriaya couldn’t do

Pain being weakened could explain these two things partially. Preta DOES inexplicably tank a tackle from SM Naruto later on.
 

t0xeus

hi it's me t0x
Better strength (shattering chakra rods), durability (shattering chakra rods), speed (blitzing Asura Path from long distance > blitzing Human Path from melee range), better D/C (FRS > Goemon) and last but not least - better stalling methods for potential Frog Song finish (clonespam > running around)

He's just better in all the useful areas
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Better strength (shattering chakra rods), durability (shattering chakra rods), speed (blitzing Asura Path from long distance > blitzing Human Path from melee range), better D/C (FRS > Goemon) and last but not least - better stalling methods for potential Frog Song finish (clonespam > running around)

He's just better in all the useful areas

What do you think of my discussion with trocollo and Sparks?

@MHA massive fan You too.
 

MarF

Ostarrichi
You forgot Naruto's superior battle tactics.

Jiraiya had to fall back and prepare an ambush to deal with the shared vision of three Paths.

Naruto in turn created an elaborate plan to get around their shared vision on the spot.

Spoiler:



 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
You forgot Naruto's superior battle tactics.

Jiraiya had to fall back and prepare an ambush to deal with the shared vision of three Paths.

Naruto in turn created an elaborate plan to get around their shared vision on the spot.

Spoiler:




Eh, idk lol. Naruto is definitely a battle genius, but I'd argue Jiraiya is wiser overall. Naruto made some sloppy decisions against Pain.

Tbf comparing intellect in this manga can be tricky.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
It should also be noted that Naruto was still able to match the Animal Path, even after Preta and Asura were destroyed, despite Pain noting a marked decrease in the strength of his Sage Jutsu as his Senjutsu chakra depleted []. And the remaining Paths would have gotten proportionally stronger.

Matching the Animal Path honestly doesn't seem that great given that Animal Path should be a (relative) joke without her summons, or so she (unfortunately) is treated in the NBD. Granted, another Animal Path DOES actually injure Jiraiya, so I guess you're on to something here too lol...but Jiraiya had a missing arm. So again I'm not sure. Good find about Naruto also getting weaker, though. Man, these fights are full of variables lol, too much going on at once.
 

t0xeus

hi it's me t0x
What do you think of my discussion with trocollo and Sparks?

@MHA massive fan You too.
I think using Asura Path example is a bit tricky since the actual attack happens off-panel, I prefer the comparison between Naruto-Asura and Jiraiya-Human (though you're saying he didn't actually blitz him - not sure what you mean by that), where Naruto covers far larger distance to blitz his opponent than Jiraiya does.

Other than that I guess I mostly agree.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I think using Asura Path example is a bit tricky since the actual attack happens off-panel, I prefer the comparison between Naruto-Asura and Jiraiya-Human (though you're saying he didn't actually blitz him - not sure what you mean by that), where Naruto covers far larger distance to blitz his opponent than Jiraiya does.

Other than that I guess I mostly agree.

The attack literally happens on-panel. We see Asura appear behind J-Man, see Jiraiya react (but fail to dodge/block/etc), and so on.

Jiraiya never blitzes Human Path. Indeed, Human is the one charging AT Jiraiya, Jiraiya just responds with a kick. That's not a blitz, a blitz requires movement from A to B like Naruto blitzing Asura. Yet another time, Human effortlessly reacts to J-Man and blocks his punch, and J-Man retreats. Another time, HUMAN nearly blindsides J-Man if not for the toads alerting Jiraiya in time.

The ''covers far larger distance to blitz'' doesn't work either. Jiraiya blitzing someone from a closer distance =/ being unable to blitz someone from a greater distance.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Absolutely not.

''No one has ever pushed Pain this far'' is a direct comparison between Naruto and all those that came before him (including Jiraiya).

It literally gets no simpler than that.
Yeah, but my question is, wouldn't you think Jiraiya in Naruto position would do better than Jiraiya did in amegakure?

It's pretty clear Fukasaku is comparing Naruto to Minato and J-Man as sages, and Naruto indeed did surpass him in sagehood.
Ah then we agree, thought you meant it in general

Guess I forgot, could you post where?

Here:


Using it in combat being the point =/ actually being good at it. Everyone learns jutsu for combat, Kakashi is famous for having mastered 1,000 jutsu yet hasn't demonstrated 1/10th of that arsenal. Minato never did use SM in combat until against Juudara and he told us why he didn't do so. Ergo, it's possible - and going by feats, probable - that Jiraiya had a similar issue with Frog Katas.
Kakashi aganist the edo in the WA was angried and has gone: "I copied 1000 justu and I'm gonna use all of them", and then conveninent off panel, not sure what you mean specifically with Minato cause as you said it I'd agree, and don't see the problem in Jiraiya not using it if it's agood choice like Minato did

Whatever kind of attack that was, Jiraiya failed to dodge it. I already provided multiple cases of people reacting and evading or guarding against ambush attacks.
That's not the point, the ambush can fail or not, you can't claim an ambush isn't an ambush cause other reacted to different ambushes, beside Bee didn't have his guard down and he said he already knew and A4 wasn't retiring from combact either, Naruto also ambushes the other paths and tags them, there's nothing to take away from Jiraiya letting his guard down outside combact being blindsided to his performance in battle

Jiraiya never blitzed Human Path. He did blitz Animal Path's handseals but Frog Song was active during that time.



I don't think that's relevant, honestly. If Naruto's clone dispersed, he should have received a Senjutsu chakra boost in his mind realm (and, yet he is very clearly in base the entire time. This is a reply to @Sparks as well.
But it's said by Naruto that his clone dispersed, why would you take your theory on how his apparence works in his mind realm over Naruto telling us the clone dispersed?
Morover the clones themselves aren't in SM, they just gater NE, so you don't even have to suppose that, when the NE is mixed Naruto enters SM

Pain is referring to Jiraiya using knowledge of ''the real Pain (aka Nagato)'' to pull off a win - the coded message he sent to Konoha, the message Naruto didn't even know the answer to (in fact, Naruto learns about the real Pain much later on during the fight for himself, and tells Pain to bring Naruto to Nagato). He's not referring to knowledge of the paths themselves.

It should be noted that Amegakure is an entire battlefield full of hiding spots for guerilla style combat and Pain's own homeground, a place where Pain might not go all out and where he canonically went easy on Jiraiya until Frog Song ensnared three paths. If Jiraiya had intel on Nagato, he'd simply avoid the paths and go right for Nagato, then ensnare him using Frog Song. None of this applies to Konoha.

Naruto could have beaten Pain in Jiraiya's place with that secret info too IMO.
But the point would've also been that Jiraiya knew those were puppets and wouldn't have let his guard down, he would've took the bodies like he took human path, and Pain wouldn't have been able to revive them, resulting in another 3 vs 1, and Jiraiya injured without an arm could already fight all 6 of them and capture one, so he simply wins now, even using toad chant on Nagato, it's the same as using toad chant on all the paths

This hasn't been the case tho, he from the start spammed summons that wrecked everything, I can get you saying him not using CT but "went easy"? It wasn't that, Pain himself was aware of the danger that was Jiraiya

You mean with prepped SM clones and Ma and Pa summoned or without?
 

MarF

Ostarrichi
Eh, idk lol. Naruto is definitely a battle genius, but I'd argue Jiraiya is wiser overall. Naruto made some sloppy decisions against Pain.
Eh, everyone makes a sloppy decision sometimes. Jiraiya lost his arm against Pain because he let his guard down after all.

Naruto also has feats like accurately analyzing Kakuzu's fighting style, attack range and speed with a handful of clones and using said knowledge to push him into a situation that he only survived by sheer luck.

Against Deva he used his clones to bait him into refereshing his ST cooldown, leaving him open for a head on attack. Using the chakra rods to track down Nagato, turning Preta into stone with NE.

Tbf comparing intellect in this manga can be tricky.

True.
 

Sparks

Repopulating History
@trocollo Here is Naruto shattering a chakra rod like a twig. Look at his hands carefully and the fragments he destroyed.



He literally uses the palms of his hands to shatter the sharpened ends of the rod. It's a strength and durability feat at that point.

Naruto uncovers the identity of the real Pain here.



Pain even praises Naruto for realizing this, implying Naruto didn't actually know of the real Pain beforehand.



@Sparks Naruto is in base during his conversation with Minato.

Hmm, the Senjutsu chakra from the dispersed clone would still have had to return to Naruto. When Naruto was battling Kurama for the chakra tug-of-war, despite being in Sage Mode externally/internally, even a v1 transformation was enough to disrupt his chakra/knock him out of SM [,]. Naruto being in 8T at the time without any direct suppression of Kurama's chakra from Kushina, probably would have been prevented from entering SM until Minato redid the seal.

But it's not like he couldn't have done it that quickly without the clone's Senjutsu chakra; that's just the way I've always viewed that scene (especially the way the anime portrayed that scene).
 

t0xeus

hi it's me t0x
The attack literally happens on-panel. We see Asura appear behind J-Man, see Jiraiya react (but fail to dodge/block/etc), and so on.
The scene cuts before Asura shows us what he's even using to attack Jman.

If, for an example, it was an explosive, then even Jman managing to block or trying to dodge wouldn't change the outcome - and outcome is the only thing we see.
Jiraiya never blitzes Human Path. Indeed, Human is the one charging AT Jiraiya, Jiraiya just responds with a kick. That's not a blitz, a blitz requires movement from A to B like Naruto blitzing Asura.
If someone is right in front of me and manages to punch me before I can react, then I still consider it a blitz even if that person didn't leave his initial position and only moved his arm.
The ''covers far larger distance to blitz'' doesn't work either. Jiraiya blitzing someone from a closer distance =/ being unable to blitz someone from a greater distance.
Nah, you cover it well enough here - we do have proof that Jman can't blitz them from a larger distance:
Yet another time, Human effortlessly reacts to J-Man and blocks his punch, and J-Man retreats. Another time, HUMAN nearly blindsides J-Man if not for the toads alerting Jiraiya in time.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
@trocollo Here is Naruto shattering a chakra rod like a twig. Look at his hands carefully and the fragments he destroyed.



He literally uses the palms of his hands to shatter the sharpened ends of the rod. It's a strength and durability feat at that point.

Naruto uncovers the identity of the real Pain here.



Pain even praises Naruto for realizing this, implying Naruto didn't actually know of the real Pain beforehand.



@Sparks Naruto is in base during his conversation with Minato.


@trocollo is right about Jiraiya and the chakra rod, though he gets injured by it and doesn't snap it quite as neatly as Naruto does.





But they both broke it, you think making more pieces with two arms proves that Naruto can tank a rod cause Jiraiya limit is what he showed with one arm where he simply moved the arm aside to break it?

It's about what you do with the knowledge of the puppets, Jiraiya wouldn't have been "uhm so that was it?" after killing those three, like also Naruto wouldn't have known but in his case all6 were there
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Hmm, the Senjutsu chakra from the dispersed clone would still have had to return to Naruto. When Naruto was battling Kurama for the chakra tug-of-war, despite being in Sage Mode externally/internally, even a v1 transformation was enough to disrupt his chakra/knock him out of SM [,]. Naruto being in 8T at the time without any direct suppression of Kurama's chakra from Kushina, probably would have been prevented from entering SM until Minato redid the seal

I disagree. Even in your posted scan, the NE didn't return to Naruto even after Kushina saved him from Kurama.

Naruto had to re-enter SM to fight Kurama.

Eh, everyone makes a sloppy decision sometimes. Jiraiya lost his arm against Pain because he let his guard down after all.

Naruto also has feats like accurately analyzing Kakuzu's fighting style, attack range and speed with a handful of clones and using said knowledge to push him into a situation that he only survived by sheer luck.

Against Deva he used his clones to bait him into refereshing his ST cooldown, leaving him open for a head on attack. Using the chakra rods to track down Nagato, turning Preta into stone with NE

Very true! Good point on Jiraiya, I definitely think he's to blame for underestimating Pain. He had no reason to.

Yeah, but my question is, wouldn't you think Jiraiya in Naruto position would do better than Jiraiya did in amegakure?

I see no reason to think so :hm

Ah then we agree, thought you meant it in general

Guess I forgot, could you post where?[/QUOTE]

Check my last posts.


You're right, but the fact remains he got injured by it and didn't essentially handtank it like Naruto did.

Kakashi aganist the edo in the WA was angried and has gone: "I copied 1000 justu and I'm gonna use all of them", and then conveninent off panel, not sure what you mean specifically with Minato cause as you said it I'd agree

We never see these 1,000 jutsu in an actual fight though :hm

Proving my point. Some jutsu are simply far better than others. Kakashi knows Rasengan but never uses it in combat.

and don't see the problem in Jiraiya not using it if it's agood choice like Minato did

Yet Jiraiya didn't use it against Pain in CQC. He missed quite an opportunity to make use of it, a need even.

That's not the point, the ambush can fail or not, you can't claim an ambush isn't an ambush cause other reacted to different ambushes

Never said it wasn't an ambush.

beside Bee didn't have his guard down and he said he already knew and A4 wasn't retiring from combact either

Fair point about Bee. He DID react to an ambush from his friend long ago as a child, the one trying to kill him (Motoi).

Guy reacted to Kisame trying to attack him from behind, Guy didn't even see him coming.

Ay4 was literally mistaking Juugo for dead and about to focus on a different opponent (Sasuke).

Sasuke reacting to Deidara trying to bomb him from the sky outside combat, yet Sasuke reacted perfectly.

Jiraiya was literally in a hostile village lol. He doesn't get a pass.

Naruto also ambushes the other paths and tags them

Yes, and? I don't deny those are Naruto's feats.

there's nothing to take away from Jiraiya letting his guard down outside combact being blindsided to his performance in battle

There is, plenty of other examples back it up and prove as much.

The alternative is that Jiraiya is incredibly, incredibly easy to sucker punch and ambush...which is a horrible weakness to have.

But it's said by Naruto that his clone dispersed, why would you take your theory on how his apparence works in his mind realm over Naruto telling us the clone dispersed?

I don't doubt the clone dispersed.

His appearance in the mind realm proves he didn't enter SM even after that though, thanks to Kurama shenanigans.

Therefore, Naruto had to re-enter SM again alone.

Morover the clones themselves aren't in SM, they just gater NE, so you don't even have to suppose that, when the NE is mixed Naruto enters SM

Scan? :hm

But the point would've also been that Jiraiya knew those were puppets and wouldn't have let his guard down, he would've took the bodies like he took human path, and Pain wouldn't have been able to revive them, resulting in another 3 vs 1, and Jiraiya injured without an arm could already fight all 6 of them and capture one, so he simply wins now, even using toad chant on Nagato, it's the same as using toad chant on all the paths

I don't...disagree?

This hasn't been the case tho, he from the start spammed summons that wrecked everything

Dude literally used only ONE offensive summon and hid in his chameleon.

Compare to his attack on Konoha or his fight against Naruto. Multiple summons come out, offensively and simultaneously.

I can get you saying him not using CT but "went easy"? It wasn't that, Pain himself was aware of the danger that was Jiraiya

Lol. Pain didn't even use Yahiko Path much, Jiraiya and the toads have no clue what he could do.

It fell to Kakashi to uncover his abilities for that very reason.

You mean with prepped SM clones and Ma and Pa summoned or without?

Naruto can prep SM clones in the middle of battle if needs be or even beforehand, so yes to that.

He'd need Ma and Pa to Frog Song Nagato too, yes to that as well.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
But they both broke it, you think making more pieces with two arms proves that Naruto can tank a rod cause Jiraiya limit is what he showed with one arm where he simply moved the arm aside to break it?

No, I think shattering the sharpened end of a chakra rod with your bare hands (literally more tender than your arms) and not taking any damage > Jiraiya's much clumsier destruction of the rod and actually taking damage from it.

It's about what you do with the knowledge of the puppets, Jiraiya wouldn't have been "uhm so that was it?" after killing those three, like also Naruto wouldn't have known but in his case all6 were there

???
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
This scan does not say what you think it does read the words
The other 5 are recovering more slowly than last time .
last time he used less chakra though , you know to kill one person vs fighting a village
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
I see no reason to think so :hm
I see, so you think Jiraiya in Naruto's position battle him and the end result will be dead Jiraiya with one path captured right?

Check my last posts.
Checked it:
The attack literally happens on-panel. We see Asura appear behind J-Man, see Jiraiya react (but fail to dodge/block/etc), and so on.

Jiraiya never blitzes Human Path. Indeed, Human is the one charging AT Jiraiya, Jiraiya just responds with a kick. That's not a blitz, a blitz requires movement from A to B like Naruto blitzing Asura. Yet another time, Human effortlessly reacts to J-Man and blocks his punch, and J-Man retreats. Another time, HUMAN nearly blindsides J-Man if not for the toads alerting Jiraiya in time.

The ''covers far larger distance to blitz'' doesn't work either. Jiraiya blitzing someone from a closer distance =/ being unable to blitz someone from a greater distance.
You didn't post Naruto tanking the rod

You're right, but the fact remains he got injured by it and didn't essentially handtank it like Naruto did.
No, I think shattering the sharpened end of a chakra rod with your bare hands (literally more tender than your arms) and not taking any damage > Jiraiya's much clumsier destruction of the rod and actually taking damage from it.
Naruto didn't "hand-tank" it, he broke it from the sides with his hands, when you say hand tank and sharpened end you mean Naruto plowed his hand into it? Cause we see the movement he does is by the side not foward into the rod

We never see these 1,000 jutsu in an actual fight though :hm

Proving my point. Some jutsu are simply far better than others. Kakashi knows Rasengan but never uses it in combat.
Yeah but Kakashi was going to use them, why would you rather say Kakashi was actully lying cause we didn't see him using them, it's just that not even Kishi knows what those justu are and he has to make them weaker than raikiri, so of course it's gonna be off panel, wich is didfferent than proving he can't use them, like Kakashi said himself so

And now I'm lost, so your point is that Jiraiya just prefers not to use kawaze kumitè?

Yet Jiraiya didn't use it against Pain in CQC. He missed quite an opportunity to make use of it, a need even.
But I don't disagree with it:
Yeah this is pretty strange, it is a good counter to their shared vision

Never said it wasn't an ambush.


Fair point about Bee. He DID react to an ambush from his friend long ago as a child, the one trying to kill him (Motoi).

Guy reacted to Kisame trying to attack him from behind, Guy didn't even see him coming.

Ay4 was literally mistaking Juugo for dead and about to focus on a different opponent (Sasuke).

Sasuke reacting to Deidara trying to bomb him from the sky outside combat, yet Sasuke reacted perfectly.

Jiraiya was literally in a hostile village lol. He doesn't get a pass.


Yes, and? I don't deny those are Naruto's feats.


There is, plenty of other examples back it up and prove as much.

The alternative is that Jiraiya is incredibly, incredibly easy to sucker punch and ambush...which is a horrible weakness to have.
I'm not disagreeing that's a weakness, but a weakness to an ambush while you have your guard down, doesn't matter when you want to scale speed while in combact

I don't doubt the clone dispersed.

His appearance in the mind realm proves he didn't enter SM even after that though, thanks to Kurama shenanigans.

Therefore, Naruto had to re-enter SM again alone.
If you don't doubt the clone dispersed then why are you contesting that?:
If Naruto's clone dispersed, he should have received a Senjutsu chakra boost in his mind realm



I don't...disagree?
Ah nice, you said it was about going directly from Nagato so I thought you rejected this other way

Dude literally used only ONE offensive summon and hid in his chameleon.

Compare to his attack on Konoha or his fight against Naruto. Multiple summons come out, offensively and simultaneously.
He used 3, if you don't count the crab at the start I mean, the dog, the bird and the rihno, while hiding in the chameleon, that he also didn't have aganist Naruto

Attack on Konoha is different he was going to do the most general damage possible, aganist Naruto he attacked with the same amount, first he launched one then two, at the end Naruto ended up fighing less summons

Lol. Pain didn't even use Yahiko Path much, Jiraiya and the toads have no clue what he could do.

It fell to Kakashi to uncover his abilities for that very reason.
From what I rememeber all the toads said was that each pain has a different justu and you have to figure it out, for example the jonin that fought preta noticed there that that pain absorbed jutsu, in general tho, it could just be that they dind't figured out how that power worked

Naruto can prep SM clones in the middle of battle if needs be or even beforehand, so yes to that.

He'd need Ma and Pa to Frog Song Nagato too, yes to that as well.
Ok

Wouldn't have known if he was in Jiraiya's place, but it didn't bring out the same problem cause Naruto saw all 6
 
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