The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I'd get your point of Pain said something along the lines of: "Naruto, you're the strongest I've ever fought" or "Naruto you're the only one who can push Pain this far", but these would be untrue cause he admitted Jiraiya would be able to defeat him
Looks like you completely forgot that Pain added the caveat, "Had he known our secret". Even then, Pain merely said he would not have won, not that he would have lost.
Jiraiya being able to defeat/stalemate Pain WITH intel on Nagato doesn't change the fact Naruto was pushing Pain further WITHOUT intel on Nagato. This isn't complicated.
But in what world when you tie with someone you're not a match for him?
The world where you need specialized secret knowledge to defeat/stalemate the enemy, and without it, barely make a dent in them ultimately. It's weird you keep ignoring the significance of having knowledge on Nagato when the manga repeatedly makes it clear said knowledge is a huge key to beating him.
It's literally the secret Jiraiya sent to Konoha on Fukasaku's back, the secret he died for.
And yet Jiraiya advocates are the ones downplaying his contribution
Anyway, tie is highly improblable given that Pain works with 6 bodies who have to be killed, a tie would be Jiraiya killing himself with the last body
Or Jiraiya can kill Nagato, the actual Pain and the subject of the secret...and die at the hands of his paths or himself in the process.
So you basically think nothing changes for Jiraiya, he might do better if he hits the 60%, or he might do the same as his injured one armed version if it's 40%
Nothing much. Jiraiya loses the terrain advantage and much of the knowledge Naruto had is knowledge J-Man already had by the time he had fought 3 paths. Yahiko Path directly intervening is also a change.
Pain is weakened at the beginning by an unknown amount and lacks KI, but that's about it for Jiraiya's "new" advantagss.
You said he stalled with summons with both Naruto and Jiraiya, but Jiraiya was in a worse situation cause he had to charge his SM up
Fighting only one offensive summon at a time is a walk in the park for any Kage level fighter and many Elite Jonin. Even Ibiki and random fodder ninja could fend them off or hold their own against those summons.
Pain gave Jiraiya the perfect opportunity to enter SM, and Naruto would have done it too and even more easily. Jiraiya even himself admits Pain is not even fighting him for real.
Therefore, pretending Naruto had a bigger advantage is very, very silly here.
Pain didn't even use the Cerberus properly and recalled it randomly instead of letting him stay and exploit his splitting ability.
Nope best you can hope to say is that Yahiko for some reasons didn't use his powers aganist Jiraiya, but even saying that Jiraiya didn't fight him while Naruto had some cqc with him even tho it couldn't use his powers? Yahiko like all the other paths jump on Jiraya to kill him with rods, and when Jiraiya captured a path he was trying to capture all of them, so Yahiko included, so he wasn't on the sidelines cheering up the other paths
So Yahiko killed Jiraiya with rods (I don't remember him being among those doing it tbh). That doesn't equate to him using his gravitational abilities, and I even said that he likely DID use them...just not much (at all).
You just said he knew of toad chant, how this defends your claim of saying that better intel isn't accurate? Naruto had intel on the paths and to Nagato, how knowing of toad chant makes the better intel not accurate?
Knowledge of toad chant is Nagato's intel, not Naruto's, Nagato benefited from.
So a different tactic will be used, perfect battlefield to use a big field yomi numa
Absorbed and literally featless against ninja with eyes, especially eyes that can see chakra. This is a reach if I've seen one lol.
erect various doton walls
What does this even do?
putting the summons to work
Naruto did too. Your point?
Pain destroyed them though.
using smoke bombs, clones and huge fire style
The former is useful, the latter two not as much. Jiraiya lacks clone spam feats and his huge Katons get dunked on by chakra absorption. They don't even have any actual feats of hitting targets, come to think of it.
even barriers like in Amegakure
His barriers didn't really help him there.
Pain wasted his greatest summon to the higest degree, he just trowed them foward a SM user who yeeted them in the air and had his summons sit of top of theirs
I'm sorry, bro, are you trolling at this point?
Pain. Literally. Was. Beating. All. Three. Of. Naruto's. Summons. With. One.
That summon got STRONGER from Naruto's attack and that of the other summons so I'm not even sure what you're getting at here.
The one summon Pain didn't even use much against Jiraiya. He had the dog split into smaller dogs against J-Man but into boss sized ones against Naruto. He kept the dog against Naruto but randomly desummoned it to bring in a bird summon against Jiraiya.
I literally showed you that in a scan.
resulting in Naruto having his summons in good conditions
The manga: Naruto's summons surrounded and cornered by multiple dogs equal to them in size, seemingly about to lose.
You: Naruto's summons were in good conditions.
Jiraiya is one who works more with his summons compared to Naruto
Jiraiya barely did a thing to help Gamaken anyhow.
-.- all this and you meant the same panel as your other point
What? There are no points on the side, you're talking like the rod is actually a katana and Pain was doing a slashing motion with it and Naruto just broke it aganist that motion, it isn't what happens, Pain goes for a trust and there is no tanking, if he could tank it then he would've have done so and used his hands to punch deva in the face dude
It's not even a sharpened side, as you can see from the image you posted it's just a cut to make the end of the rod a point, neverteless the cut is at the right side but Naruto's left hand breaks the rod more foward than his right arm, neither the cut itself is a as long as na hand, and actually we even see that the part Naruto breaks is the middle of the rod, since you can see a piece of rod in Pain's hand and the other one Near Naruto's shoulder, and all the shattered pieces in the middle
So lets stop overanalizing things to say he hit a specific sharpened part just to say he could've tanked it
I mean, it was always the same point...maybe you need to actually read what I say, because time and time now you've shown you aren't doing that.
The irony of you telling me to stop overanalyzing things lol. Naruto shattered the end of the chakra rod going toward him, and that is the end Pain meant to stab with. It gets no simpler than this.
No the problem is that you think that if Jiraiya does the above he also lets his guard down immedialy after hitting a clone, which makes no sense
It makes complete sense according to YOUR logic, not mine. You're the one acting as if Jiraiya is some chump to be ambushed.
No Naruto needs to physically summon the clone cause he doesn't have telepaty so his clones don't know when they have to desummon themselves, chakra can easily travels huge distances, having the clone near isn't it, Naruto was sending clones everywhere on the battlefiled and still knew Kurama gave him chakra when the one aganist Madara dispersed, Minato could detect Naruto from Konoha, so could Tobirama detect Madara, from where comes this limitation in chakra distance now?
Lol. Tobirama is a sensor type, everyone could detect Naruto from Konoha due to his strength, and Kurama is intimately connected to Naruto. None of these examples are good lol.
Naruto's clones not having telepathy is irrelevant. If they are disturbed by the Kurama chakra, they get wasted. The idea NE just hangs in the air without going to Naruto at any rate seems to be headcanon at best.
And again, did you see that the clones weren't in SM? It's not fair that you first say I'll look into them when you just have to look at a scan I posted and then you don't even reply
What's not fair is you blaming me for your own arguments, ignoring my points and the manga's, and then showing me attitude for a scan I shared multiple times over.
I apologize for not reading your scan, but ultimately I realized it doesn't really change anything.
And I already explained to you that it's not simply an ambush, the point is having your guard down or not, if you let yourself open then yout let yourself open, if Jiraiya didn't let his guard down he'd have reacted to the ambush
Sasuke's guard was down before Deidara tried to bomb him. Not a fight context.
Bee's guard was down before his friend tried to stab him. Not a fight context.
Jiraiya doesn't even have their excuses, I told you he's in the Akatsuki leader's territory. He has no proof Pain is really dead and already fought Konan. I don't doubt Jiraiya let his guard down, I never contested it actually.
What I DO doubt is that Jiraiya becomes some kind of fodder that can be ambushed by anyone when his guard is down, which is your argument, not mine.