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In what ways is PA Naruto stronger than Jiraiya? Feats only.

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I'd get your point of Pain said something along the lines of: "Naruto, you're the strongest I've ever fought" or "Naruto you're the only one who can push Pain this far", but these would be untrue cause he admitted Jiraiya would be able to defeat him

Looks like you completely forgot that Pain added the caveat, "Had he known our secret". Even then, Pain merely said he would not have won, not that he would have lost.

Jiraiya being able to defeat/stalemate Pain WITH intel on Nagato doesn't change the fact Naruto was pushing Pain further WITHOUT intel on Nagato. This isn't complicated.

But in what world when you tie with someone you're not a match for him?

The world where you need specialized secret knowledge to defeat/stalemate the enemy, and without it, barely make a dent in them ultimately. It's weird you keep ignoring the significance of having knowledge on Nagato when the manga repeatedly makes it clear said knowledge is a huge key to beating him.

It's literally the secret Jiraiya sent to Konoha on Fukasaku's back, the secret he died for.

And yet Jiraiya advocates are the ones downplaying his contribution :yareyare

Anyway, tie is highly improblable given that Pain works with 6 bodies who have to be killed, a tie would be Jiraiya killing himself with the last body

Or Jiraiya can kill Nagato, the actual Pain and the subject of the secret...and die at the hands of his paths or himself in the process.

So you basically think nothing changes for Jiraiya, he might do better if he hits the 60%, or he might do the same as his injured one armed version if it's 40%

Nothing much. Jiraiya loses the terrain advantage and much of the knowledge Naruto had is knowledge J-Man already had by the time he had fought 3 paths. Yahiko Path directly intervening is also a change.

Pain is weakened at the beginning by an unknown amount and lacks KI, but that's about it for Jiraiya's "new" advantagss.

You said he stalled with summons with both Naruto and Jiraiya, but Jiraiya was in a worse situation cause he had to charge his SM up

...?

Fighting only one offensive summon at a time is a walk in the park for any Kage level fighter and many Elite Jonin. Even Ibiki and random fodder ninja could fend them off or hold their own against those summons.

Pain gave Jiraiya the perfect opportunity to enter SM, and Naruto would have done it too and even more easily. Jiraiya even himself admits Pain is not even fighting him for real.

Therefore, pretending Naruto had a bigger advantage is very, very silly here.

Pain didn't even use the Cerberus properly and recalled it randomly instead of letting him stay and exploit his splitting ability.

Nope best you can hope to say is that Yahiko for some reasons didn't use his powers aganist Jiraiya, but even saying that Jiraiya didn't fight him while Naruto had some cqc with him even tho it couldn't use his powers? Yahiko like all the other paths jump on Jiraya to kill him with rods, and when Jiraiya captured a path he was trying to capture all of them, so Yahiko included, so he wasn't on the sidelines cheering up the other paths

So Yahiko killed Jiraiya with rods (I don't remember him being among those doing it tbh). That doesn't equate to him using his gravitational abilities, and I even said that he likely DID use them...just not much (at all).

You just said he knew of toad chant, how this defends your claim of saying that better intel isn't accurate? Naruto had intel on the paths and to Nagato, how knowing of toad chant makes the better intel not accurate?

Knowledge of toad chant is Nagato's intel, not Naruto's, Nagato benefited from.

So a different tactic will be used, perfect battlefield to use a big field yomi numa

Absorbed and literally featless against ninja with eyes, especially eyes that can see chakra. This is a reach if I've seen one lol.

erect various doton walls

What does this even do?

putting the summons to work

Naruto did too. Your point?

Pain destroyed them though.

using smoke bombs, clones and huge fire style

The former is useful, the latter two not as much. Jiraiya lacks clone spam feats and his huge Katons get dunked on by chakra absorption. They don't even have any actual feats of hitting targets, come to think of it.

even barriers like in Amegakure

His barriers didn't really help him there.

Pain wasted his greatest summon to the higest degree, he just trowed them foward a SM user who yeeted them in the air and had his summons sit of top of theirs

I'm sorry, bro, are you trolling at this point?

Pain. Literally. Was. Beating. All. Three. Of. Naruto's. Summons. With. One.

That summon got STRONGER from Naruto's attack and that of the other summons so I'm not even sure what you're getting at here.

The one summon Pain didn't even use much against Jiraiya. He had the dog split into smaller dogs against J-Man but into boss sized ones against Naruto. He kept the dog against Naruto but randomly desummoned it to bring in a bird summon against Jiraiya.

I literally showed you that in a scan.

resulting in Naruto having his summons in good conditions

The manga: Naruto's summons surrounded and cornered by multiple dogs equal to them in size, seemingly about to lose.

You: Naruto's summons were in good conditions.

Jiraiya is one who works more with his summons compared to Naruto

Jiraiya barely did a thing to help Gamaken anyhow.

-.- all this and you meant the same panel as your other point

Sure

What? There are no points on the side, you're talking like the rod is actually a katana and Pain was doing a slashing motion with it and Naruto just broke it aganist that motion, it isn't what happens, Pain goes for a trust and there is no tanking, if he could tank it then he would've have done so and used his hands to punch deva in the face dude

It's not even a sharpened side, as you can see from the image you posted it's just a cut to make the end of the rod a point, neverteless the cut is at the right side but Naruto's left hand breaks the rod more foward than his right arm, neither the cut itself is a as long as na hand, and actually we even see that the part Naruto breaks is the middle of the rod, since you can see a piece of rod in Pain's hand and the other one Near Naruto's shoulder, and all the shattered pieces in the middle
So lets stop overanalizing things to say he hit a specific sharpened part just to say he could've tanked it

I mean, it was always the same point...maybe you need to actually read what I say, because time and time now you've shown you aren't doing that.

The irony of you telling me to stop overanalyzing things lol. Naruto shattered the end of the chakra rod going toward him, and that is the end Pain meant to stab with. It gets no simpler than this.

No the problem is that you think that if Jiraiya does the above he also lets his guard down immedialy after hitting a clone, which makes no sense

It makes complete sense according to YOUR logic, not mine. You're the one acting as if Jiraiya is some chump to be ambushed.

No Naruto needs to physically summon the clone cause he doesn't have telepaty so his clones don't know when they have to desummon themselves, chakra can easily travels huge distances, having the clone near isn't it, Naruto was sending clones everywhere on the battlefiled and still knew Kurama gave him chakra when the one aganist Madara dispersed, Minato could detect Naruto from Konoha, so could Tobirama detect Madara, from where comes this limitation in chakra distance now?

Lol. Tobirama is a sensor type, everyone could detect Naruto from Konoha due to his strength, and Kurama is intimately connected to Naruto. None of these examples are good lol.

Naruto's clones not having telepathy is irrelevant. If they are disturbed by the Kurama chakra, they get wasted. The idea NE just hangs in the air without going to Naruto at any rate seems to be headcanon at best.

And again, did you see that the clones weren't in SM? It's not fair that you first say I'll look into them when you just have to look at a scan I posted and then you don't even reply

What's not fair is you blaming me for your own arguments, ignoring my points and the manga's, and then showing me attitude for a scan I shared multiple times over.

I apologize for not reading your scan, but ultimately I realized it doesn't really change anything.

And I already explained to you that it's not simply an ambush, the point is having your guard down or not, if you let yourself open then yout let yourself open, if Jiraiya didn't let his guard down he'd have reacted to the ambush

Sasuke's guard was down before Deidara tried to bomb him. Not a fight context.

Bee's guard was down before his friend tried to stab him. Not a fight context.

Jiraiya doesn't even have their excuses, I told you he's in the Akatsuki leader's territory. He has no proof Pain is really dead and already fought Konan. I don't doubt Jiraiya let his guard down, I never contested it actually.

What I DO doubt is that Jiraiya becomes some kind of fodder that can be ambushed by anyone when his guard is down, which is your argument, not mine.
 

Orochimaruwantsyourbody

Well-Known Member
Naruto:

Enters SM Faster
Slightly faster
Slightly more durable
Slightly stronger
More destructive output (via FRS)
Better Frog Kata
Better sensing
Unreliable access to Kyuubi chakra (Kn1)
Bigger chakra reserves

Jiraiya:

Significantly more versatile
More functional stamina due to indefinite SM
Better team work with Toads
Slightly better base
More experience


I believe this adds up to Naruto slightly surpassing Jiraiya by that point.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Naruto:

Enters SM Faster
Slightly faster
Slightly more durable
Slightly stronger
More destructive output (via FRS)
Better Frog Kata
Better sensing
Unreliable access to Kyuubi chakra (Kn1)
Bigger chakra reserves

Jiraiya:

Significantly more versatile
More functional stamina due to indefinite SM
Better team work with Toads
Slightly better base
More experience


I believe this adds up to Naruto slightly surpassing Jiraiya by that point.

Agreed pretty much, though I'd say Naruto's more than ''slightly'' better physically.

Naruto doesn't need Kurama's chakra (KN0 or above) to surpass Jiraiya, he didn't even use it until Nagato and still outperformed J-Man.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
So the main problem I'm seeing from Jiraiya fans:

They ignore the actual content of Nagato saying ''we would not have won''. Nagato says this in the context of Jiraiya fighting Pain the same way he did in the manga BUT with knowledge of A secret (secret in the singular, not secrets in the plural - the secret being ''the real Pain isn't there'', aka the secret Jiraiya sent to Konoha through Fukasaku to decode, aka the secret Naruto did NOT know himself until much later on in the Pain fight and on his own at that). Not winning =/ losing (a stalemate or mutual death might be possible too)

People mistake the possibility of Jiraiya defeating/stalemating Pain under a very specific condition as Jiraiya being on Pain's level, even though it's pretty much in your face that knowledge is power and knowing the secret means the difference between Pain losing or tying and Pain only losing one path but killing J-Man in the process. People also mistake the secret of NAGATO for the ''secrets'' of the individual Pain bodies themselves, even though multiple translations and the narrative make it clear they're really not identical at all.

This is why you get people thinking Jiraiya actually > Naruto, as they think Jiraiya could actually beat Pain with intel on PAIN...even though the manga makes it clear the intel that really does this is intel on NAGATO, or his status as the ''true Pain''.

@t0xeus @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @deltaniner @Mawt Thoughts? :hm
 

Orochimaruwantsyourbody

Well-Known Member
While I think Jiraiya could have taken out nearly as many Paths as Naruto in that situation before coming up short, a large part of what Jiraiya has going for him is that he simply flows better with his Toads.

Naruto is much more boom and bust than Jiraiya. Naruto constantly goes back and fourth during his career between beating opponents as a major underdog with unconventional strategy and quickly losing and finding himself in need of rescue. Naruto has more power, better physicals, more destructive power, and even a second reserve of power (Kyuubi) that Jiraiya does not have. But he is also constantly on the edge; fighting his opponents up close, nearly running out of Sage time, having to hope the Paths are not revived, needing to prep clones in advance and stall in base, requiring Fukasaku and Shima to fight in the open. Naruto’s own power is in a sense his weakness in SM at this point: the need for using the Rasenshuriken requires him to use up his Sage time. If Shima did not summon Naruto at the start, just summoning them toads would have likely cost Naruto a huge proportion of his Sage chakra. Naruto has lots of great abilities, but just using them causes him to rapidly lose his power (SM).

While Jiraiya has less pure power in every category than Naruto at that point, everything Jiraiya has is functional. He can merge with Fukasaku and Shima, use Gamayu Endan, and seemingly knows (and uses) every summon in Mount Myoboku. He doesn’t have the square pegs and round holes SM Naruto does.

Why should fighting indirectly be something to use against Jiraiya? It’s part of his skill set. Who says he even has to fight all of the Paths in the open in Konoha in Naruto’s position? Naruto’s entire strategy needed up being to wipe the paths out one by one before they are back at full power. Jiraiya might handle things differently.

If Jiraiya ambushed a worn out Asura Path with a Rasengan (and potential follow up by Fukasaku and Shima if Asura survives), than Jiraiya is in a good position to just set up the Frog Song. Asura has his body mangled and Deva is on cool down. All of the Paths are weakened by Nagato’s use of CST.

So, why not prep the Frong Song from that point? Jiraiya’s first move after discovering the Frog Song was to use it in canon. Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya can directly support Fukasaku and Shima from his shoulders, unlike Naruto who needed Fukasaku and Shima to support him by summoning his clones. With Asura down and Deva’s gravitational powers turned off, Animal Path is the only offense Pain has available. And Jiraiya can one shot any summon besides Cerberus.

One armed SM Jiraiya (with Fukasaku and Shima’s help) could evade six full powered Paths. Now two armed Jiraiya would have to stall five greatly weakened Paths (but with Fukasaku and Shim busy). He can use the speed of his summons to evade the Paths and head for the forests or some debris, hide in his toad gourd, trick the Paths with clone feints, and use his standard Ninjutsu to stall as well.

How does Pain defeat Jiraiya in that situation?
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
While I think Jiraiya could have taken out nearly as many Paths as Naruto in that situation before coming up short, a large part of what Jiraiya has going for him is that he simply flows better with his Toads

Fair.

Naruto is much more boom and bust than Jiraiya. Naruto constantly goes back and fourth during his career between beating opponents as a major underdog with unconventional strategy and quickly losing and finding himself in need of rescue

Jiraiya isn't perfect in this light either.

Got drugged by Tsunade, someone he already suspects to be cooperating alongside Orochimaru, in spite of knowing her reputation.

Got surprise attacked by Pain, even though he had no real proof he had killed all of Pain at the time and he was still on hostile territory.

Didn't even prep Sage Mode before facing the Animal Path (he believed to be the real Pain at the time). Even Naruto did that.

But he is also constantly on the edge; fighting his opponents up close

I fail to see this being a bad thing, given that Naruto clapped all of the paths he fought in melee combat. Jiraiya did the same too and with VASTLY inferior results, in fact, getting murked by Animal and blocked by Human and nearly blindsided by Human another time.

nearly running out of Sage time

And unlike Jiraiya, had the intelligence to enter SM before fighting Pain AND have a plan in case he ran out.

having to hope the Paths are not revived

...?

needing to prep clones in advance

You do realize that just makes him smart, right?

and stall in base, requiring Fukasaku and Shima to fight in the open

...?

Fukasaku and Shima didn't even fight for him then, they summoned Naruto's clone for him.

Naruto’s own power is in a sense his weakness in SM at this point: the need for using the Rasenshuriken requires him to use up his Sage time. If Shima did not summon Naruto at the start, just summoning them toads would have likely cost Naruto a huge proportion of his Sage chakra. Naruto has lots of great abilities, but just using them causes him to rapidly lose his power (SM)

A lot of this is true, but Jiraiya wasn't in SM while summoning Ma and Pa. There's no proof he or Naruto needs to be.

While Jiraiya has less pure power in every category than Naruto at that point, everything Jiraiya has is functional

Everything Naruto has is too.

use Gamayu Endan

Has accomplished absolutely nothing in its single use (and neither has Senpo: Goemon). The Rasenshuriken has regularly killed people after being fully mastered and was useful against Pain practically every time, either as an offense or a distraction.

and seemingly knows (and uses) every summon in Mount Myoboku

Naruto knows the main toads too.

Why should fighting indirectly be something to use against Jiraiya? It’s part of his skill set

Because it can't be done in every arena.

Why should fighting directly be something to use against Naruto? It's part of his skillset.

Who says he even has to fight all of the Paths in the open in Konoha in Naruto’s position? Naruto’s entire strategy needed up being to wipe the paths out one by one before they are back at full power. Jiraiya might handle things differently

Gee, idk...maybe the fact it's not quite as easy to run and hide against multiple opponents on an OPEN field?

If Jiraiya ambushed a worn out Asura Path with a Rasengan (and potential follow up by Fukasaku and Shima if Asura survives)

No proof he can do any of this.

than Jiraiya is in a good position to just set up the Frog Song

Nah. Not only is it doubtful he can kill Asura nearly as easily as Naruto (Asura already embarrassed Jiraiya as is, and ambush or surprise attack or not, you still need a certain level of speed and ability to make that attack count as I told trocollo).

So, why not prep the Frong Song from that point? Jiraiya’s first move after discovering the Frog Song was to use it in canon

Because Jiraiya had. No. Other. Choice.

Jiraiya even flat out says he'll get killed by the three paths otherwise.

Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya can directly support Fukasaku and Shima from his shoulders, unlike Naruto who needed Fukasaku and Shima to support him by summoning his clones

This argument makes no sense, nothing's stopping Ma and Pa from sitting on Naruto's shoulders even outside fusion, and pretending that Ma and Pa AREN'T supporting Jiraiya by literally being the REASON he can use SM at all is a massive bruh moment on your part, bro.

With Asura down

Nah.

and Deva’s gravitational powers turned off, Animal Path is the only offense Pain has available

You forgot the Human Path, and the Yahiko Path can still eat a hit from SM Naruto if need be. Pain still has defense through Preta.

And Asura isn't dying, definitely not any time soon.

One armed SM Jiraiya (with Fukasaku and Shima’s help) could evade six full powered Paths

In a metropolis full of hiding spots, and one that happened to be Pain's home on top of that.

Y'know, a place he probably doesn't want to nuke. Konan, Pain's supporter, literally makes her entry saving a dude from Jiraiya.

You also skated over the fact he lost the arm in the first place to Pain, the fact Pain then injured him again through a chakra rod, and then killed him for good. The six full powered paths part is technically untrue as there's no evidence Jiraiya fought or saw much of Yahiko.

Now two armed Jiraiya would have to stall five greatly weakened Paths (but with Fukasaku and Shim busy)

There's no proof five were ''greatly weakened'', just ''weakened''.

Three already gave SM Jiraiya a hard time, five even if weakened aren't gonna be much easier if at all.

He can use the speed of his summons

And Pain can chase him using HIS summons, at least one that can fly. His summons were comparable to Gamaken individually so let's not try and argue they're an issue for him.

Gamabunta can't leap again once he's in the air and will take time to complete a second leap, third leap, etc.

Pain can send summons and paths all around to chase J-Man and Bunta from different directions.

How does Pain defeat Jiraiya in that situation?

The good old fashioned way.
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
Nagato statement of Jiriaya could have won is empty and of course was retconned as we find out Nagato >>Paths of pain
So even if Jiriaya avoided pain and went directly to Nagato he would have died much quicker

thus it must mean Jiriaya would have won by knowing the secret and sending for back up so the village can attack Nagato

the power behind pain was the secret so knowing that implies winning

Else explain how a full knowledge Jiriaya beats Nagato
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Looks like you completely forgot that Pain added the caveat, "Had he known our secret". Even then, Pain merely said he would not have won, not that he would have lost.

Jiraiya being able to defeat/stalemate Pain WITH intel on Nagato doesn't change the fact Naruto was pushing Pain further WITHOUT intel on Nagato. This isn't complicated.
Has Naruto been tricked by the "3 paths are all the pahts"? No, They where already all 6 there, the problem with Jiraiya was that beacause of that secret he left his guard down after killing 3, and later the problem with Naruto would've been Nagato getting away, along with the other difficoulties of not knowing shared vision and the abilityes

The world where you need specialized secret knowledge to defeat/stalemate the enemy, and without it, barely make a dent in them ultimately. It's weird you keep ignoring the significance of having knowledge on Nagato when the manga repeatedly makes it clear said knowledge is a huge key to beating him.

It's literally the secret Jiraiya sent to Konoha on Fukasaku's back, the secret he died for.

And yet Jiraiya advocates are the ones downplaying his contribution :yareyare
But a fair match isn't entering enemy territory with the enemy having intel on you while you don't have intel on them, even if you keep the "intel on you but no intel on them" part if you get the Konoha crater, Jiraiya knows from the start that there are 6
Otherwise why you walue this secret so much? You think Pain w/o secret is a match to jiraiya but with the secret is leagues above? The difference was how he could use that secret to get him by surpise, he legit used this roudabout way and made himself look like beaten to get Jiraiya when he was with his guard down, if he could outright slam him with all 6 paths he could have done so from the start, but he used the tricky way and admitted that it was thanks to his secret that he was able to win, so he clearly wasn't confident in normal settings

Or Jiraiya can kill Nagato, the actual Pain and the subject of the secret...and die at the hands of his paths or himself in the process.
If you think he can kill Nagato with the other paths around (you know Nagato can use all the pahts abilityes even simultaneusly right?) then why you don't think he's a match to Pain? Morover that wasn't how the secret was used, what changed was getting all the other paths back into the fight with an arm took off from Jiraiya

Nothing much. Jiraiya loses the terrain advantage and much of the knowledge Naruto had is knowledge J-Man already had by the time he had fought 3 paths. Yahiko Path directly intervening is also a change.

Pain is weakened at the beginning by an unknown amount and lacks KI, but that's about it for Jiraiya's "new" advantagss.
Why you say Yahiko intervening is a change when you know Yahiko couldn't use his powers till only two paths remained for Naruto and assume Yahiko didn't even intervene aganist Jiriaya? Like not only you're saying he didn't use his powers, you're even saying he only watched from the sidelines, where you got this info?

...?

Fighting only one offensive summon at a time is a walk in the park for any Kage level fighter and many Elite Jonin. Even Ibiki and random fodder ninja could fend them off or hold their own against those summons.

Pain gave Jiraiya the perfect opportunity to enter SM, and Naruto would have done it too and even more easily. Jiraiya even himself admits Pain is not even fighting him for real.

Therefore, pretending Naruto had a bigger advantage is very, very silly here.

Pain didn't even use the Cerberus properly and recalled it randomly instead of letting him stay and exploit his splitting ability.
You know the one fighting was Jiraiya's summon and not Jiraiya? If he started already in SM he'd have dealt with them and he'd have a working summon to use, like Naruto had them, and Jiraiya capitalizes more with his summons

So Yahiko killed Jiraiya with rods (I don't remember him being among those doing it tbh). That doesn't equate to him using his gravitational abilities, and I even said that he likely DID use them...just not much (at all).
You said Yahiko didn't even engage just two quotes above, if you think Yahiko used his powers but not much I'm agreeing

Knowledge of toad chant is Nagato's intel, not Naruto's, Nagato benefited from.
I didn't ask this, you attacked the claim of "having better intel", as inaccurate, wich isn't if your response is that Nagato also had intel, this has no bearing on the amout of intel Naruto has

Absorbed and literally featless against ninja with eyes, especially eyes that can see chakra. This is a reach if I've seen one lol.
You can't absorb real material, only the chakra inside it, resulting in preta still having to dig himself up and freeing the other paths, deva can prolly aoe out of it, it's effective for the rest and it takes time

What you want to imply by saying it's featless aganist ninja with eyes?

Eyes that can see chakra don't get their vision blocked by smoke bombs, but Idk what seeing chakra does aganist yomi numa anyway

What does this even do?


Naruto did too. Your point?

Pain destroyed them though.


The former is useful, the latter two not as much. Jiraiya lacks clone spam feats and his huge Katons get dunked on by chakra absorption. They don't even have any actual feats of hitting targets, come to think of it.


His barriers didn't really help him there.
You missed the point? I'm just responding to your "open battlefiled, no hiding spots, no toad chant charge" point

I'm sorry, bro, are you trolling at this point?

Pain. Literally. Was. Beating. All. Three. Of. Naruto's. Summons. With. One.

That summon got STRONGER from Naruto's attack and that of the other summons so I'm not even sure what you're getting at here.

The one summon Pain didn't even use much against Jiraiya. He had the dog split into smaller dogs against J-Man but into boss sized ones against Naruto. He kept the dog against Naruto but randomly desummoned it to bring in a bird summon against Jiraiya.

I literally showed you that in a scan.
That's not what you said, you claimed Pain used his best summon to the highest degree, how's that the case when he just tossed them at SM Naruto who yeeted them on the spot? If he summoned and a also engaged Naruto at the same time, with the summon being directed at Naruto's own summon then the toads would have had a harder time since they wouldn't have Naruto helping them with those, resulting in the future tactic of getting animal path into one of them being debatable as we don't know if they'd be still stalling with the summons or if they despawned or are too injured to move, since as you said even after Naruto's help they were in a bind with cerberus

The manga: Naruto's summons surrounded and cornered by multiple dogs equal to them in size, seemingly about to lose.

You: Naruto's summons were in good conditions.
... see above

Jiraiya barely did a thing to help Gamaken anyhow.
You know he was charging his SM there right?

I mean, it was always the same point...maybe you need to actually read what I say, because time and time now you've shown you aren't doing that.
What other times I didn't do that? Teach me to be a better poster

The irony of you telling me to stop overanalyzing things lol. Naruto shattered the end of the chakra rod going toward him, and that is the end Pain meant to stab with. It gets no simpler than this.
It's not irony, I overanalized cause you did, cause if I simply did stop overanalizing you'd think I'm not being honest

No you just repeated yourself, I replyed to this, Naruto shatters the rod in the middle, you can see the two longer pieces around Naruto's shoulder and Tendo's hand, wich proves this

Morover again the movement is from the side, while Pain is trusting the rod, you straight up can't argue Naruto could plow his hand into it and not get stabbed

It makes complete sense according to YOUR logic, not mine. You're the one acting as if Jiraiya is some chump to be ambushed.
You already said this, ence why I asked you how it makes sense, so again, tell me how according to my logic that's the case

Lol. Tobirama is a sensor type, everyone could detect Naruto from Konoha due to his strength, and Kurama is intimately connected to Naruto. None of these examples are good lol.

Naruto's clones not having telepathy is irrelevant. If they are disturbed by the Kurama chakra, they get wasted. The idea NE just hangs in the air without going to Naruto at any rate seems to be headcanon at best.
Not sure what you want to say here, if they could detect him the chakra traveled till there, so that proves my point

Yeah? So the NE goes to Naruto, that's what I'm saying, while in your case the NE doesn't hang in the air but also doesn't go to Naruto, so where does it go?

What's not fair is you blaming me for your own arguments, ignoring my points and the manga's, and then showing me attitude for a scan I shared multiple times over.

I apologize for not reading your scan, but ultimately I realized it doesn't really change anything.
But would you show me where I did those things? For example I called you out on the scan you where ignoring, I didn't just say "You're ignoring my points"
Now you're calling me out on blaming you for my arguments (don't know what that means), ignoring your points (where?), ignoring the manga points (where?), showing attitute for a scan shared multiple time, this last I think you're referring to the one of Naruto allergedely tanking a rod by breaking it from the side, wich I showed attitute as you could've cleared the misundertanding easily by just posting the scan, instead of replying with "my last post" that I then quoted, and instead of replying with "no I meant this last-not-last post, see I meant this istance", you replied with "I did", this is straight up useless, if I already didn't get that you meant to say that it was the same thing you should've just cleared it up from the start, what you want from me if you dragged it with responses that I clearly had no clue how to intepret, it looked to me like you where just trolling me honestly

Why it doesn't change anything? Now you know you can recive NE and still not be in SM

Sasuke's guard was down before Deidara tried to bomb him. Not a fight context.

Bee's guard was down before his friend tried to stab him. Not a fight context.

Jiraiya doesn't even have their excuses, I told you he's in the Akatsuki leader's territory. He has no proof Pain is really dead and already fought Konan. I don't doubt Jiraiya let his guard down, I never contested it actually.

What I DO doubt is that Jiraiya becomes some kind of fodder that can be ambushed by anyone when his guard is down, which is your argument, not mine.
Their guard wasn't down, legit how you think they reacted if it was?

He doesn't need to have their excuses, it's litterally tould to us he had his guard down, tell me what you're reading in that dialogue box, cause it's straight up said, what intepretation tells you otherwise?
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
@trocollo, you're literally repeating the same old tired arguments over and over again. I do not understand why.
Would help if you quoted the repeated ones, from my guess I think you're seeing as repeated the one on Naruto tanking a rod and Jiriaya having his guard down, but from my perspective it's what you're doing instead, cause I made my points, but instead of a response I got a repetition of your initial stance, you didn't address the rod shattering in the middle with the two big pieces being on Naruto's shoulder and deva's hand, neither you explained how breaking a rod from the side is the same as pummeling your hand into it, you continue to claim the sharpened edge in the blade sense, but the edge of the rod is the point at the end, the rod itself isn't a sword and his side edge can't compare the cut to the edge in the front, for the guard down I'm repeating the manga point cause you're still not adressing it, asura straight up tells us Jiraiya let his guard down and you're like:
It makes complete sense according to YOUR logic, not mine. You're the one acting as if Jiraiya is some chump to be ambushed.
Jiraiya doesn't even have their excuses, I told you he's in the Akatsuki leader's territory. He has no proof Pain is really dead and already fought Konan. I don't doubt Jiraiya let his guard down, I never contested it actually.

What I DO doubt is that Jiraiya becomes some kind of fodder that can be ambushed by anyone when his guard is down, which is your argument, not mine.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
@Aegon Targaryen wait I see the problem with the second point now, it's not that you're ironic, it's that you are actually saying that having your guard down doesn't justify you getting ambushed, sorry if I sound harsh on it with the "you're not ironic" but having your guard down is what lets you get ambushed by anyone, if you litterally aren't paying attention to your surrondings then a fog can jump on you and you'd not notice that, let alone a ninja
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
but having your guard down is what lets you get ambushed by anyone

See, this is what I mean when I say "repeating yourself" (I deleted that comment because I thought it was overly confrontational).

I keep telling you ninjas can, have, and will be able to bring their guard right back up. Not just *anyone* can ambush a skilled ninja.

Kakuzu could not be ambushed by Shikamaru even though he was walking in the woods and not fighting anyone at the time.

Bee could not be ambushed by his friend outside a non-combat situation.

Deidara literally trying to bomb Sasuke from behind while Sasuke was just walking around resulted in the latter successfully guarding himself with a summon.

Every. One. Of. Those. Happened. Outside. Combat.

The part that annoys me is that you're literally just repeating the same tired assumption and not even addressing or looking at actual evidence saying you're wrong.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
See, this is what I mean when I say "repeating yourself" (I deleted that comment because I thought it was overly confrontational).

I keep telling you ninjas can, have, and will be able to bring their guard right back up. Not just *anyone* can ambush a skilled ninja.

Kakuzu could not be ambushed by Shikamaru even though he was walking in the woods and not fighting anyone at the time.

Bee could not be ambushed by his friend outside a non-combat situation.

Deidara literally trying to bomb Sasuke from behind while Sasuke was just walking around resulted in the latter successfully guarding himself with a summon.
Uhm, I think there isn't a way out of this, we're not agreeing on what guard down is, from what I see if you see a ninja walking around you think his guard his down, while I don't (or do) unless they say so (like when I see someone reacting to something I think his guard was up), like it doesn't seem to me it's something you can notice from a panel, while instead you think that if they're not in a battle then ninja must have their guard down

Ok so:
@trocollo, our posts are both getting very long. Let's do one point at a time.
That's a good idea, I'd also apprecciate if we did that, we have to break down the points first tho, I'll take the order of the OP points:

1. Chakra rods tanking

2. Kawaze kumitè

3. Guard down

4. NE clone for SM

Then the whole view on the statement of Pain praisong Naruto for pushing Pain the furthest, and the one where Pain admitted he couldn't win without his secret aganist Jiraiya

This is the breakdown I'm seeing, see if that works for you and we can start by any of them
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
No one technically said Jiraiya was off guard.

It's common sense that when you're not in battle, your guard is weaker than...in a battle.

Jiraiya has no reason to be off guard anyway, he's in the AL's city and has no reason to think someone else might not jump him.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Ah, my bad.

Everything else I said still stands :vegetak

Jiraiya still reacted though... :hm

Mentally and physically :hm

Yet couldn't avoid the attack :hm
Sure but we don't know what kind of attack that was, he could've already grabbed his arm, or there was a imminent explosion, like a bomb who detonates in 0.1 seconds, whatever attack it was it landed in that condition of off guard
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Sure but we don't know what kind of attack that was, he could've already grabbed his arm, or there was a imminent explosion, like a bomb who detonates in 0.1 seconds, whatever attack it was it landed in that condition of off guard

Glad we agree Konohamaru couldn't have assaulted Jiraiya in Asura's place.

Pretty clearly a physical attack :hm

Using a missile or bomb at zero range would literally be bad FOR Asura, it would hurt him too :hm

A bomb would leave noticeable burns as would a missile (a missile would also be shown if it was used)... :hm

A punch does none of that though.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Glad we agree Konohamaru couldn't have assaulted Jiraiya in Asura's place.
He could've tho, I'm taking off guard differentely than you, if you aren't on guard for attacks then why would attacks still be detectable? Madara got fooled twice by this, both times by the same body but controlled by different people (Obito then Zetsu), Tobirama who can fly away with FTG and is a sensor got taken by surpise by Kin&Gin in a peace meating, but in battle he could detect Kin's team, Kakuzu surely didn't hope to kill the god of shinobi in a fair battle, but in an assassination

Pretty clearly a physical attack :hm

Using a missile or bomb at zero range would literally be bad FOR Asura, it would hurt him too :hm

A bomb would leave noticeable burns as would a missile (a missile would also be shown if it was used)... :hm

A punch does none of that though.
We saw an explosion that blowed up a wall tho, and nakara path is right there so any damage even if a self destruction can be repaired on the spot
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
He could've tho

No need to troll.

I'm taking off guard differentely than you, if you aren't on guard for attacks then why would attacks still be detectable?

Because your eyes/ears/brain/body don't magically shut off when you're "off guard".

Jiraiya DID react mentally and physically.

Madara got fooled twice by this, both times by the same body but controlled by different people (Obito then Zetsu)

Yeah, and that falls under plot hax BS.

Tobirama who can fly away with FTG and is a sensor got taken by surpise by Kin&Gin in a peace meating

Peace meeting, not even a hostile village.

Tobirama does not use teleportation like Minato does, you should know that.

Even iN BATTLE, he didn't teleport...so your point here is not really a point.

but in battle he could detectKakuzu surely didn't hope to kill the god of shinobi in a fair battle, but in an assassination

Which failed.

We saw an explosion that blowed up a wall tho, and nakara path is right there so any damage even if a self destruction can be repaired on the spot

A punch can do that. I guess color scans could help here though.

Naraka didn't even repair Human's eyes, why would he repair a path that's not even certain to have taken any damage?
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
No need to troll.


Because your eyes/ears/brain/body don't magically shut off when you're "off guard".

Jiraiya DID react mentally and physically.
It's not about shutting off is about paying attention, you can be in class taking lessons and distract yourself with other thoughs and ending up not even processing what's being said at the moment even tho you got ears

Yeah after being warned when it was too late

Yeah, and that falls under plot hax BS.
Doesn't need to, Madara wasn't paying attention to Zetsu and he belived Obito was going to rejoin him

Peace meeting, not even a hostile village.

Tobirama does not use teleportation like Minato does, you should know that.

Even iN BATTLE, he didn't teleport...so your point here is not really a point.
I know right? So Tobirama let his guard down

What level of skill is required to just cast FTG on yourself? He didn't teleport home you mean? Yeah that's strange, but again it's not required a complex level of FTG to do that, like if yo uwant so say he can't use FTG then him not having it yet at FKS seems a better alternative, while when it was said that he got taken by surpise it was simply that, guard down

Which failed.
Yeah, but he did try to assasinate him, he couldn't get him when his guard was down and got his ass handled to him, otherwise why try in the first place?

A punch can do that. I guess color scans could help here though.

Naraka didn't even repair Human's eyes, why would he repair a path that's not even certain to have taken any damage?
Don't pick on me saying that I troll when you claim that asura punch can do that, I shound't need to use this other proof but read the sfx

What you mean with "that's not even certain to have taken any damage" this is a maybe for us, Nagato knows the damage
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
It's not about shutting off is about paying attention, you can be in class taking lessons and distract yourself with other thoughs and ending up not even processing what's being said at the moment even tho you got ears

Cool theory, but a classroom isn't the same as a battlefield, and Jiraiya isn't a student any more, he's a veteran ninja.

Yeah after being warned when it was too late

So he was warned...

That undermines the surprise aspect then.

Doesn't need to, Madara wasn't paying attention to Zetsu and he belived Obito was going to rejoin him

Does need to.

Also, this is not a good example, both are his erstwhile allies for one that Juduara openly let approach. Pain is NOT Jiraiya's ally.

I know right? So Tobirama let his guard down

A peace meeting =/ a hostile village where you literally fought multiple opponents.

What level of skill is required to just cast FTG on yourself? He didn't teleport home you mean? Yeah that's strange, but again it's not required a complex level of FTG to do that, like if yo uwant so say he can't use FTG then him not having it yet at FKS seems a better alternative, while when it was said that he got taken by surpise it was simply that, guard down

Tobirama isn't Minato that has kunai all over Konoha to teleport to.

Yeah, but he did try to assasinate him, he couldn't get him when his guard was down and got his ass handled to him

You...realize this supports my point, right?
Relative fodders can't ambush powerful ninja. It does not happen. Period. The closest example you can find is Sakura getting behind a suffering Sasuke, and at that point it's debatable if a Sharingan-less Sasuke is really that much better than Sakura anyhow. And Sasuke was fighting Kakashi at the time.

And even then, Asura's is a partial ambush, he blew his cover before hitting Jiraiya.

Don't pick on me saying that I troll when you claim that asura punch can do that, I shound't need to use this other proof but read the sfx

I'm not picking on you. You literally said Konohamaru can ambush and harm Jiraiya :mjlol

So prove it then. What sfx?

What you mean with "that's not even certain to have taken any damage" this is a maybe for us, Nagato knows the damage

If Nagato damaged Asura willingly, I think there'd be some proof of it, no?

We have proof Human got damaged, for one. His eyes still aren't healed even then.
 
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trocollo

Well-Known Member
Cool theory, but a classroom isn't the same as a battlefield, and Jiraiya isn't a student any more, he's a veteran ninja.
I don't get what you want to imply with this? I told you how even when having ears you can not think of what it's being heard, while from your response I'm getting the "Jiraiya is a veteran so he'll not make that mistake" vibes, I want for you to aknowledge the meaning of being off guard, in this point I'm not talking about Jiraiya being a veteran who's never off guard, that's on asura dialogue, remember that Jiraiya isn't a textbook ninja

So he was warned...

That undermines the surprise aspect then.
Yeah but if the warning could give him the possibility to get away then why warning him?
The waring itself is an explanation to the reader in the end, but even if you want to see this in-universe you gotta abide by the problem presented by the question above as if not it would make Pain stupid

Does need to.

Also, this is not a good example, both are his erstwhile allies for one that Juduara openly let approach. Pain is NOT Jiraiya's ally.
You just said "does need to", I see you wanted to give a decisive response to my "doesn't need to" but after I said that I put a comma and explained why, I need you to do the same if you want me to undertand what you're thinking

It's not a matter of being allies, but of keeping your guard, Pain was dead bodyes for Jiraiya, and dead bodyes can't harm you, Obito was an ally for Madara and an ally can't harm you, the reson that made Jiraiya and Madara loosen down their guard may be different but the point here is about loosening the guard not about what makes you do that

A peace meeting =/ a hostile village where you literally fought multiple opponents.
Yeah in fact Jiraiya shouldn't have let his guard down, that's all it comes down to it from what you said here, in a peace meating you'd let down your guard, but in an enemy village you shouldn't, tho this doesn't sound like somehting you'd say since you don't think it matters to have the guard down, but then what you mean with this difference?

Tobirama isn't Minato that has kunai all over Konoha to teleport to.
He has a spot marked in Konoha he can to teleport to since he did, but if you want to say Kishi didn't think about that when he made do so guess that's a fair point

You...realize this supports my point, right?
Relative fodders can't ambush powerful ninja. It does not happen. Period. The closest example you can find is Sakura getting behind a suffering Sasuke, and at that point it's debatable if a Sharingan-less Sasuke is really that much better than Sakura anyhow. And Sasuke was fighting Kakashi at the time.

And even then, Asura's is a partial ambush, he blew his cover before hitting Jiraiya.
They can't if the ninja is on guard, but there's nothing stopping them if the ninja is off guard, for exaple if Hashirama is sleeping wouldn't Kakuzu be able to kill him?

Ok, I talked about this above

I'm not picking on you. You literally said Konohamaru can ambush and harm Jiraiya :mjlol

So prove it then. What sfx?
That was meant to sound more silly but I forgot to put an emote after it sorry lol, I know you're not picking on me, yet I wanted to tease you for saying that that huge explosion of a wall was caused by a simple punch from asura :spicy

It's the text used to describe a sound effect, for example when a character uses shunshin can come up a sound sile fwosh, or swish etc... The sfx where we see the allegedly explosion is "bakoom" so an explosion

If Nagato damaged Asura willingly, I think there'd be some proof of it, no?

We have proof Human got damaged, for one. His eyes still aren't healed even then.
You think so? I do find stange that he didn't heal Human's eyes, but it might've just been something he deemed unnecessary since he had already shared vision from other 5 bodies, but anyway asura damaging himself in the process wasn't even the only option, his body got moves like the one Nagato was using on edo Bee, or the head one where the damage is directional
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I don't get what you want to imply with this? I told you how even when having ears you can not think of what it's being heard, while from your response I'm getting the "Jiraiya is a veteran so he'll not make that mistake" vibes, I want for you to aknowledge the meaning of being off guard, in this point I'm not talking about Jiraiya being a veteran who's never off guard, that's on asura dialogue

Okay, Jiraiya was off guard, I never denied it.

What I DO deny is that being off guard = being susceptible to literally anyone ambushing you.

And Asura blows his cover and literally gives J-Man time to react, it's Jiraiya's fault he couldn't do more with it.

remember that Jiraiya isn't a textbook ninja

You're right. He's THE ninja, one of the best ever.

Yeah but if the warning could give him the possibility to get away then why warning him?

Because Pain is THAT confident he can warn Jiraiya AND still get him anyway - and strong/fast enough to back it up.

It's not a matter of being allies, but of keeping your guard, Pain was dead bodyes for Jiraiya

Actually, Jiraiya didn't even know they were dead at that point IIRC. You're also entering the realm of headcanon.

They can't if the ninja is on guard, but there's nothing stopping them if the ninja is off guard, for exaple if Hashirama is sleeping wouldn't Kakuzu be able to kill him?

Nah. Hashirama would have bodyguards or precautions in place. Love the extreme example tho lol.

It's not that easy to assassinate the Hokage :mjlol

Jiraiya wasn't sleeping anyhow :hm

That was meant to sound more silly but I forgot to put an emote after it sorry lol, I know you're not picking on me, yet I wanted to tease you for saying that that huge explosion of a wall was caused by a simple punch from asura :spicy

I...see no issue with that? Tsunade and Sakura literally make the ground explode with their strength, how is Asura any different?

It's the text used to describe a sound effect, for example when a character uses shunshin can come up a sound sile fwosh, or swish etc... The sfx where we see the allegedly explosion is "bakoom" so an explosion

Has ''bakoom'' never been used for super strength before?

Illusory showed me that ''boom'' has been used for Itachi fighting CQC.

You think so? I do find stange that he didn't heal Human's eyes, but it might've just been something he deemed unnecessary since he had already shared vision from other 5 bodies, but anyway asura damaging himself in the process wasn't even the only option, his body got moves like the one Nagato was using on edo Bee, or the head one where the damage is directional

If he can heal Asura so fast, he can heal Human too, and at any rate there's zero proof Asura needed or even had a chance to heal (everything happens very quick), so the burden of proof is on you to prove your overly complicated, and if I may, unwarranted theory.[/QUOTE]
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Okay, Jiraiya was off guard, I never denied it.

What I DO deny is that being off guard = being susceptible to literally anyone ambushing you.

And Asura blows his cover and literally gives J-Man time to react, it's Jiraiya's fault he couldn't do more with it.
Yeah I got this already, in fact I didn't say Jiraiya was off guard we both already agree to that, I instead explained how you can actually ignore something even if you have the receptors for it, that's what you argued aganist, you where like:
No need to troll.

Because your eyes/ears/brain/body don't magically shut off when you're "off guard".
I showed you that's not the case, people can be distracted, Jiraiya was chit chatting with Pa and Ma, while you're saying that while a ninja is off guard he's also actually in guard

You're right. He's THE ninja, one of the best ever.
Eh? Are you contesting what I said or not? You think Jiraiya doesn't let his guard down when he shouldn't cause you consider him one of the best ninja? Then how come he didn't follow the protocol and left his guard down?

Because Pain is THAT confident he can warn Jiraiya AND still get him anyway - and strong/fast enough to back it up.
That's what I also said:
Yeah but if the warning could give him the possibility to get away then why warning him?
The waring itself is an explanation to the reader in the end, but even if you want to see this in-universe you gotta abide by the problem presented by the question above as if not it would make Pain stupid

Actually, Jiraiya didn't even know they were dead at that point IIRC. You're also entering the realm of headcanon.
Where you got this from? And why accusing me of entering hedcanon if it's something you're not even sure to recall correctly?

Nah. Hashirama would have bodyguards or precautions in place. Love the extreme example tho lol.

It's not that easy to assassinate the Hokage :mjlol

Jiraiya wasn't sleeping anyhow :hm
Dude it's not even about bodyguard, Kakuzu wouldn't even able to get access to the village at night, there's a sensory barrier all around it in the first place, best he can hope is being given access in the day to do something political with the hokage regarding his village, but that's totally beside the point, even a civilian can kill Hashirama if the latter is sleeping

Jiraiya was off guard, he couldn't react to Pain sneaking up, like Hahsirama who's asleep can't react to a civilian getting to him and stabbing him, cause again I'm talking about being off guard not what leads to it or other cirmustances that can protect people that are off guard cause there are people on guard stading by, that's clearly not the point I'm making come on

I...see no issue with that? Tsunade and Sakura literally make the ground explode with their strength, how is Asura any different?
So since Tsunade and Sakura can do it then any ninja can? What are you implying here?

Has ''bakoom'' never been used for super strength before?

Illusory showed me that ''boom'' has been used for Itachi fighting CQC.
No clue, but Asura doesn't have Tsunade/Sakura super strenght so that's not a point

Ok, like where?

If he can heal Asura so fast, he can heal Human too, and at any rate there's zero proof Asura needed or even had a chance to heal (everything happens very quick), so the burden of proof is on you to prove your overly complicated, and if I may, unwarranted theory.
He healed the 3 paths back to life, and we've seen how in the Pain invasion he repaired a totally destroyed Asura so this isn't the case, if he was running to make his presentation he wouldn't have revived nobody since that seems more complicated than recostrcuting just the eyes
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Yeah I got this already, in fact I didn't say Jiraiya was off guard we both already agree to that, I instead explained how you can actually ignore something even if you have the receptors for it, that's what you argued aganist, you where like

You can, but generally you need a reason to. Jiraiya wasn't in a classroom, he had relatively little in the way of stimui distracting him.

I showed you that's not the case, people can be distracted, Jiraiya was chit chatting with Pa and Ma

Did that during battle too.

while you're saying that while a ninja is off guard he's also actually in guard

Or being on ''off guard'' isn't as big a handicap as you think.

Eh? Are you contesting what I said or not? You think Jiraiya doesn't let his guard down when he shouldn't cause you consider him one of the best ninja? Then how come he didn't follow the protocol and left his guard down?

Read above.

Where you got this from? And why accusing me of entering hedcanon if it's something you're not even sure to recall correctly?

The headcanon part is YOU thinking being ''dead bodies'' somehow gives Jiraiya a reason to be off guard.

That makes zero sense and is never, ever stated.

Dude it's not even about bodyguard, Kakuzu wouldn't even able to get access to the village at night, there's a sensory barrier all around it in the first place, best he can hope is being given access in the day to do something political with the hokage regarding his village, but that's totally beside the point, even a civilian can kill Hashirama if the latter is sleeping

Already pointed out this is an extreme example, and the fact remains, Kakuzu FAILED.

Imagine trying to use a failure and an extreme hypothetical example as proof :kobeha

Jiraiya was off guard, he couldn't react to Pain sneaking up

Off guard =/ asleep. Jiraiya was awake, in SM, and in fighting condition.

Yeah, your excuses are really boring.

So since Tsunade and Sakura can do it then any ninja can?

Strawman fallacy is strawman. I said you don't need to be either Tsunade or Sakura to create a ''boom'' sound or effect, not that ''any ninja'' can do it lmao. Unlike you, I don't think Konohamaru can rip off SM Jiraiya's arm and send him through a building :mjlol

I think ASURA can, and it's backed up by his portrayal as a strength beast consistently under Pain and Nagato.

No clue, but Asura doesn't have Tsunade/Sakura super strenght so that's not a point

He doesn't need to, he just needs to be strong enough.

Itachi doesn't either and he created the ''boom'' sound effect.

Ok, like where?



He healed the 3 paths back to life

We know that happened, we have on panel feats AND statements...not for what you're suggesting.

and we've seen how in the Pain invasion he repaired a totally destroyed Asura so this isn't the case, if he was running to make his presentation he wouldn't have revived nobody since that seems more complicated than recostrcuting just the eyes

The problem is you have no proof and nothing but a convoluted explanation.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
You can, but generally you need a reason to. Jiraiya wasn't in a classroom, he had relatively little in the way of stimui distracting him.
That's not the point, we already agree Jiriaya was off guard, why you want to argue he wasn't now?

Did that during battle too.
Again not the point, I just described what he was doing while off guard, not that he can do that only off battle

Or being on ''off guard'' isn't as big a handicap as you think.


Read above.
Why not? By being off guard Pain could blitz Jiraiya, something he couldn't do before

The headcanon part is YOU thinking being ''dead bodies'' somehow gives Jiraiya a reason to be off guard.

That makes zero sense and is never, ever stated.
No, you said:
Actually, Jiraiya didn't even know they were dead at that point IIRC.
Why you're now saying that the problem is instead me thinking that being dead bodyes Jriaya the reason?

And regarding this why are you contesting it? You agree he was off guard, so that was the case, but sure it doesn't follow the protocol, he should've been on guard as Nagato said

Already pointed out this is an extreme example, and the fact remains, Kakuzu FAILED.

Imagine trying to use a failure and an extreme hypothetical example as proof :kobeha
What you mean by extreme example now? You recognize you didn't address my point by talking of supposed ninja on guard to protect the ninja off guard? If yes then I'd like to have my point addressed

What has either failure and whatever you mean by extreme example with it? And actually you didn't adress the other examples:
Does need to.

Also, this is not a good example, both are his erstwhile allies for one that Juduara openly let approach. Pain is NOT Jiraiya's ally.
You just said "does need to", I see you wanted to give a decisive response to my "doesn't need to" but after I said that I put a comma and explained why, I need you to do the same if you want me to undertand what you're thinking

It's not a matter of being allies, but of keeping your guard, Pain was dead bodyes for Jiraiya, and dead bodyes can't harm you, Obito was an ally for Madara and an ally can't harm you, the reson that made Jiraiya and Madara loosen down their guard may be different but the point here is about loosening the guard not about what makes you do that
And
A peace meeting =/ a hostile village where you literally fought multiple opponents.
Yeah in fact Jiraiya shouldn't have let his guard down, that's all it comes down to it from what you said here, in a peace meating you'd let down your guard, but in an enemy village you shouldn't, tho this doesn't sound like somehting you'd say since you don't think it matters to have the guard down, but then what you mean with this difference?


Off guard =/ asleep. Jiraiya was awake, in SM, and in fighting condition.

Yeah, your excuses are really boring.
Then why he didn't sense him? Is asura immune to being sensed?

Strawman fallacy is strawman. I said you don't need to be either Tsunade or Sakura to create a ''boom'' sound or effect, not that ''any ninja'' can do it lmao. Unlike you, I don't think Konohamaru can rip off SM Jiraiya's arm and send him through a building :mjlol

I think ASURA can, and it's backed up by his portrayal as a strength beast consistently under Pain and Nagato.
You said:
I...see no issue with that? Tsunade and Sakura literally make the ground explode with their strength, how is Asura any different?
Explain to me what doesn't make asura different than Tsunade and Sakura, he didn't train uder them, and why specifically asura? CES isn't a path ability so all the paths can use it right?

He doesn't need to, he just needs to be strong enough.
Strong enough to recreate huge explosions with his punches? So he's definetely as strong as Tsunade, Sakura or 7G Gai, all in one path right?

Itachi doesn't either and he created the ''boom'' sound effect.


I see, but now I wonder if there's also a bakoom one, since that's what Asura made, I'll see if I can find Tsunade or Sakura doing that, if that's the case then you'd say that Asura punches as strong as them?

We know that happened, we have on panel feats AND statements...not for what you're suggesting.


The problem is you have no proof and nothing but a convoluted explanation.
It's not a problem for me but for you, the thing is that he can, I'm not saying he did, but that he can, while you're saying he can't cause we didn't saw him do it, so you'll have bring proof for that, heling is a ability Pain has so you can't discharge that possibility saying that it couldn't be a double damaging one cause he didn't repaired asura cause as yo usaid we didn't saw
 
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