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In what ways is PA Naruto stronger than Jiraiya? Feats only.

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
We're getting anywhere cause I gotta repeat the thing you're not adressing, you're focusing on points I'm not making

But we're not getting anywhere.

I'm the one that has to keep repeating my points. How many times have I said now that being off guard isn't all that (and that Pain alerted Jiraiya anyway), that people have tried and failed to kill off guard people before, that you have no proof for your Asura bomb theory (and unlike you, I actually provided a scan to back up my argument up, correct me if not)...?

I addressed everything you said. Your examples are extreme and I already explained they're not helpful.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
But we're not getting anywhere.

I'm the one that has to keep repeating my points. How many times have I said now that being off guard isn't all that (and that Pain alerted Jiraiya anyway), that people have tried and failed to kill off guard people before, that you have no proof for your Asura bomb theory (and unlike you, I actually provided a scan to back up my argument up, correct me if not)...?

I addressed everything you said. Your examples are extreme and I already explained they're not helpful.
No you never explained why being off guard isn't all that, you're just saying that X character was off guard (when he wasn't) and reacted to an attack so being off guard isn't actually being off guard wich is contradictory, I addressed your "eyes/ears can't be magically shut off" and I got a "Jiraiya isn't a classrom" as response, I brought you examples of people being taken by surpise or wanting to kill much stronger opponents with the element of the assassination, but you stopped replying at two and started saying that the last was an extreme example, wich Idk what it means, and the assasination attempt failed who's not the point, it could've failed like not, since I'm not talking of if Kakuzu could or could not create the opportunity for Hashirama to be off guard

It's not a theory is a possiblity, he could get damaged like not depending on the weapon he uses, you instead are saying that he couldn't be damages cause we didn't see Pain healing him wtf? What scan you provided to back up that asura wasn't healed?
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
No you never explained why being off guard isn't all that, you're just saying that X character was off guard (when he wasn't) and reacted to an attack so being off guard isn't actually being off guard wich is contradictory, I addressed your "eyes/ears can't be magically shut off" and I got a "Jiraiya isn't a classrom" as response, I brought you examples of people being taken by surpise or wanting to kill much stronger opponents with the element of the assassination, but you stopped replying at two and started saying that the last was an extreme example, wich Idk what it means, and the assasination attempt failed who's not the point, it could've failed like not, since I'm not talking of if Kakuzu could or could not create the opportunity for Hashirama to be off guard

It's not a theory is a possiblity, he could get damaged like not depending on the weapon he uses, you instead are saying that he couldn't be damages cause we didn't see Pain healing him wtf? What scan you provided to back up that asura wasn't healed?

You can hide the truth from me but it cannot help, I know your intentions, Maru :DankPepe
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
No you never explained why being off guard isn't all that

Me: Provides multiple cases of it not being all that, through Bee, Raikage, and Sasuke

Also me: Reminds you that Pain WARNED Jiraiya before attacking him

You: Aegon doesn't explain it :(

What scan you provided to back up that asura wasn't healed?

What scan you provided to back up he was? :hm

You're making the positive assumption, the burden of evidence is on you, not me.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
Me: Provides multiple cases of it not being all that, through Bee, Raikage, and Sasuke

Also me: Reminds you that Pain WARNED Jiraiya before attacking him

You: Aegon doesn't explain it :(
No you never explained why being off guard isn't all that, you're just saying that X character was off guard (when he wasn't) and reacted to an attack so being off guard isn't actually being off guard wich is contradictory, I addressed your "eyes/ears can't be magically shut off" and I got a "Jiraiya isn't a classrom" as response, I brought you examples of people being taken by surpise or wanting to kill much stronger opponents with the element of the assassination, but you stopped replying at two and started saying that the last was an extreme example, wich Idk what it means, and the assasination attempt failed who's not the point, it could've failed like not, since I'm not talking of if Kakuzu could or could not create the opportunity for Hashirama to be off guard

What scan you provided to back up he was? :hm
I'm not the one claiming I got a scan to back it up:
you have no proof for your Asura bomb theory (and unlike you, I actually provided a scan to back up my argument up, correct me if not)...?

You're making the positive assumption, the burden of evidence is on you, not me.
No what I'm saying is that Pain can heal his paths, not that he did, I'm putting it foward as a possibility, when you're negating that thing being a possibility because you want a scan of him healing him, all I have to provide you is proof that Pain can do that, while if you want to dischage that possibility you need to prove that he didn't do it
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I'm not the one claiming I got a scan to back it up:



No what I'm saying is that Pain can heal his paths, not that he did, I'm putting it foward as a possibility, when you're negating that thing being a possibility because you want a scan of him healing him, all I have to provide you is proof that Pain can do that, while if you want to dischage that possibility you need to prove that he didn't do it

1. Then why make a claim with like no evidence? I'm confused. I provided evidence, yet you ignore it.

The double standards gotta stop, bro.

2. Okay, I get that, but the burden of proof is on you to prove there was A) any need for healing and B) any healing. You haven't proven it, and it's a needlessly clunky explanation. Mine's simpler AND fits feats and portrayal.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
1. Then why make a claim with like no evidence? I'm confused. I provided evidence, yet you ignore it.

The double standards gotta stop, bro.

2. Okay, I get that, but the burden of proof is on you to prove there was A) any need for healing and B) any healing. You haven't proven it, and it's a needlessly clunky explanation. Mine's simpler AND fits feats and portrayal.
1. I got the evidence asura told us Jiriaya was off guard, but we do agree on this, the problem was that for you a ninja off guard hasn't really let his guard down, while for me he did

2. If you get that why are you asking me this? I'm not saying there was a need for healing, I'm saying that if there was a need for healing then Nagato can take care of that

How's "Nagato didn't heal it" without evidence better? You need evidence to back up your claim
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
@Code If you don't mind being a neutral 3rd party arbiter...what are your thoughts? :hm
1. I got the evidence asura told us Jiriaya was off guard, but we do agree on this, the problem was that for you a ninja off guard hasn't really let his guard down, while for me he did

2. If you get that why are you asking me this? I'm not saying there was a need for healing, I'm saying that if there was a need for healing then Nagato can take care of that

How's "Nagato didn't heal it" without evidence better? You need evidence to back up your claim

1. Oh, for... :kobeha

I TOLD you he let his guard down.

I ALSO said Asura warned him, and he REACTED, but failed to do anything about it.

2. Asura punched Jiraiya through a building is better tho :hm

That is my argument :pepesip
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
@Code If you don't mind being a neutral 3rd party arbiter...what are your thoughts? :hm

1. Oh, for... :kobeha

I TOLD you he let his guard down.

I ALSO said Asura warned him, and he REACTED, but failed to do anything about it.

2. Asura punched Jiraiya through a building is better tho :hm

That is my argument :pepesip
1. No you actually were saying he didn't even have his guard down and I had to post the panel with asura, now you're saying you told me that when it's not even the point you're making, or explain what you meant when you said this:
Then why make a claim with like no evidence? I'm confused.

Yeah that's your other point, but you are also saying that having your guard down doesn't mean that you actually have it down, cause people that you claim had their guard down reacted to ambushes, but if they did then they surely didn't have their guard down, otherwise they'd get, you know, ambushed

Asura warned him when he was already behind him, now tell me if you and other guy have a knife, and the guy with the knife gets behind you and alerts you, who's faster:
A) You turning your body to use your blade to attack or defend
B) The other guys who just has to stab
We legit just see the upper part of the bodyes, and you're impliying that Jiraiya still got tagged by asura so he's is slower cause he couldn't dodge an attack that made a huge wall explode after being blindsided
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Wow. Even all this time in and you don't get it lol.

Yeah, I'm done here. This is getting nowhere and it's not particularly funny.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
@Code Thoughts? We could use a neutral 3rd party arbiter, though I 100% understand if you're not interested in getting into my and trocollo's thing lol.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
1. No you actually were saying he didn't even have his guard down and I had to post the panel with asura, now you're saying you told me that when it's not even the point you're making, or explain what you meant when you said this:

Yeah that's your other point, but you are also saying that having your guard down doesn't mean that you actually have it down, cause people that you claim had their guard down reacted to ambushes, but if they did then they surely didn't have their guard down, otherwise they'd get, you know, ambushed

And since Asura warned Jiraiya, Jiraiya's guard being down isn't as important as you think it is.

It IS important, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the sole reason Jiraiya got hit.

Asura warned him when he was already behind him, now tell me if you and other guy have a knife, and the guy with the knife gets behind you and alerts you, who's faster:
A) You turning your body to use your blade to attack or defend
B) The other guys who just has to stab

The other guy still needs to be fast enough to complete the stab.

I'm not saying Asura is faster than SM J-Man, I'm saying he's fast enough to tag SM J-Man. There's a difference.

We legit just see the upper part of the bodyes, and you're impliying that Jiraiya still got tagged by asura so he's is slower cause he couldn't dodge an attack that made a huge wall explode after being blindsided

Please read above.

Also, not sure why it matters Asura made a huge wall explode. Asura is literally super strong.

What DOES matter is that Asura was. RIGHT. BEHIND. JIRAIYA. He attacked and Jiraiya failed to dodge. Firing a missile or throwing a punch at point blank range doesn't make much of a difference in terms of speed, missiles are ranged attacks.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
And since Asura warned Jiraiya, Jiraiya's guard being down isn't as important as you think it is.

It IS important, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the sole reason Jiraiya got hit.


The other guy still needs to be fast enough to complete the stab.

I'm not saying Asura is faster than SM J-Man, I'm saying he's fast enough to tag SM J-Man. There's a difference.
Ok, but he can't be fast enough to tag SM Jiraiya if your proof is that he starts the tagging from a point blank blindside

Please read above.

Also, not sure why it matters Asura made a huge wall explode. Asura is literally super strong.

What DOES matter is that Asura was. RIGHT. BEHIND. JIRAIYA. He attacked and Jiraiya failed to dodge. Firing a missile or throwing a punch at point blank range doesn't make much of a difference in terms of speed, missiles are ranged attacks.
The huge wall explode matters because of the AoE that had to be dodged

But it does cause while you above said that the other guy needs to be fast enough to complete the stab, that other guy has an overwhelming advantage, that he can be much slower than the guy that has to turn and still get the stab in because he just has to make his fast attack, while the guy that needs to turn, so has to waste time on facing whatever is ahappening behind you and then think of a counter, Jiraiya had no idea wtf was behind him or what the attack was going to be, and I think you're underestimating the knife example, it's pratically impossible, at least for humans to be faster than the stabbing guy, it's a huge difference
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Ok, but he can't be fast enough to tag SM Jiraiya if your proof is that he starts the tagging from a point blank blindside


The huge wall explode matters because of the AoE that had to be dodged

But it does cause while you above said that the other guy needs to be fast enough to complete the stab, that other guy has an overwhelming advantage, that he can be much slower than the guy that has to turn and still get the stab in because he just has to make his fast attack, while the guy that needs to turn, so has to waste time on facing whatever is ahappening behind you and then think of a counter, Jiraiya had no idea wtf was behind him or what the attack was going to be, and I think you're underestimating the knife example, it's pratically impossible, at least for humans to be faster than the stabbing guy, it's a huge difference

1. He did tag SM Jiraiya though :hm

Doesn't matter where you tag from, you still need speed to do it :hm

2. The huge wall exploded due to Jiraiya being punched through it really hard. Effect, not cause.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
1. He did tag SM Jiraiya though :hm

Doesn't matter where you tag from, you still need speed to do it :hm

2. The huge wall exploded due to Jiraiya being punched through it really hard. Effect, not cause.
1. It matters, it's the same reason as you were confused that Naruto has gone from blitzing a path of pain to not blizing anyone anymore and going off blindsides instead, if asura can tag Jiraiya with this kind of blindside doesn't mean he can tag Jiraiya in normal settings, since without being with his guard down Jiraiya would prevent that blindside

2. You're saying it like this cause you have proof that it's a punch or because you want to say it could be either way? If it's the second we could make a thread about it cause seems like we're just imaging the situation differentely, so we try to see what's for others
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
1. It matters, it's the same reason as you were confused that Naruto has gone from blitzing a path of pain to not blizing anyone anymore and going off blindsides instead, if asura can tag Jiraiya with this kind of blindside doesn't mean he can tag Jiraiya in normal settings, since without being with his guard down Jiraiya would prevent that blindside

2. You're saying it like this cause you have proof that it's a punch or because you want to say it could be either way? If it's the second we could make a thread about it cause seems like we're just imaging the situation differentely, so we try to see what's for others

1. Yeah, and you reminded me that Pain was weakened. I also replied that Pain being weakened on its own isn't justification enough, and Sparks pointed out that Naruto himself gets weaker over time in SM. Overall, I believe the truth is a combination of us 3.

2. Punch or missile, it makes no matter honestly. Asura was literally in CQC distance, at that range a missile would not outperform a punch.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
1. Yeah, and you reminded me that Pain was weakened. I also replied that Pain being weakened on its own isn't justification enough, and Sparks pointed out that Naruto himself gets weaker over time in SM. Overall, I believe the truth is a combination of us 3.

2. Punch or missile, it makes no matter honestly. Asura was literally in CQC distance, at that range a missile would not outperform a punch.
1. I see so you're not convinced on that, but neverteless point wasn't about the conditions but your confusion as Naruto not blitzing the other paths, like now you're saying Asura can tag Jiraiya, but like with Naruto you were ignoring some conditions, so are you doing with Jiraiya, without him being off guard he doesn't get blindsided like that, so Asura doesn't tag him, that's the conclusion we get from Asura reminding Jiraiya to not let his guard down

2. It would have greater AoE, but I'm rethinking of the strenght of asura punches, maybe he can use booster like on his foots on his arms instead so he can get that Tsunade/Sakura -like strenght for punches
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
1. I see so you're not convinced on that, but neverteless point wasn't about the conditions but your confusion as Naruto not blitzing the other paths, like now you're saying Asura can tag Jiraiya, but like with Naruto you were ignoring some conditions, so are you doing with Jiraiya, without him being off guard he doesn't get blindsided like that, so Asura doesn't tag him, that's the conclusion we get from Asura reminding Jiraiya to not let his guard down

2. It would have greater AoE, but I'm rethinking of the strenght of asura punches, maybe he can use booster like on his foots on his arms instead so he can get that Tsunade/Sakura -like strenght for punches

1. No, we don't :hm

What am I ignoring now? :confusedjr

2. Bro, Asura is the strong path. He blew up a small island with a punch, yeeted Animal Path into the middle of Konoha from a considerable distance, and in Nagato's hands fully restrained Base Bee of all people.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
1. No, we don't :hm

What am I ignoring now? :confusedjr
Not sure cause I didn't get what you mean with your initial "no we don't"

2. Bro, Asura is the strong path. He blew up a small island with a punch, yeeted Animal Path into the middle of Konoha from a considerable distance, and in Nagato's hands fully restrained Base Bee of all people.
I know he's relatively stronger but that's for his modifications, Bee was restrained with those and when was the first feat?
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Not sure cause I didn't get what you mean with your initial "no we don't"


I know he's relatively stronger but that's for his modifications, Bee was restrained with those and when was the first feat?

1. Fair, Jiraiya would have avoided a hit from Asura under normal conditions. That's what portrayal suggests. That's all it means though, and Asura himself was stationary and not using rocket boots either.

So SM Naruto > Asura > SM Jiraiya still holds.

2. What modifications? :hm

I'll get them to you when I'm near my computer again.
 

trocollo

Well-Known Member
1. Fair, Jiraiya would have avoided a hit from Asura under normal conditions. That's what portrayal suggests. That's all it means though, and Asura himself was stationary and not using rocket boots either.

So SM Naruto > Asura > SM Jiraiya still holds.

2. What modifications? :hm

I'll get them to you when I'm near my computer again.
1. But Naruto can't blitz Asura (like any other path) under normal circumstances and Asura can't blitz Jiraiya (like any other path) under normal circumstances, Jiriaya can't blitz human (like any other path) under normal circumstances, they all need to blindside each other, but there's no way Asura (like any other path) can blindside either SM Naruto or SM Jiraiya, while those two can instead blindside Asura (like any other path)

2. His body is all mechanical, even when used by Nagato to form new arms

Ok
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
1. But Naruto can't blitz Asura (like any other path) under normal circumstances and Asura can't blitz Jiraiya (like any other path) under normal circumstances, Jiriaya can't blitz human (like any other path) under normal circumstances, they all need to blindside each other, but there's no way Asura (like any other path) can blindside either SM Naruto or SM Jiraiya, while those two can instead blindside Asura (like any other path)

2. His body is all mechanical, even when used by Nagato to form new arms

Ok

1. Or maybe he can, just not at large distances. There is proof Naruto can blitz Asura under the right conditions, but there is no proof Jiraiya can ever. There is proof Asura can tag Jiraiya, but none that jiraiya can tag Asura.

2. Okay, and?
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Blitzing weakened but rocket boosted Asura from a long distance > being tagged by non-boosted Asura from behind and not knowing BUT being warned by him too
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Prime Yahiko Path also > Asura in reactions as per canon, Asura failed to dodge a sneak attack from Choji and Choza but Yahiko got out of the way just fine. Also more proof speed and reactions can help prevent ambushes @trocollo
 
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