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Infinite Speed/Reactions, GER and actions taken outside spacetime

Your opinion on 'Infinite Speed' feats (see OP for choice description)

  • Valid (interpretation 1)

  • Only for beyond time, not space (option 2)

  • No such thing (option 3)

  • Doesn't matter if location is normal spacetime (option 4)

  • Other (please specify in comments)


Results are only viewable after voting.

QuestionBox

my name and game the same
I have heard conflicting opinions so I would like to get a definitive answer on this.

Inspired by reading thread and recent discussions on the topic on various threads. There seems to be confusion over this even among the senior posters.

The question: Feats/actions performed where spacetime doesn't exist. Is there a definitive way to interpret them?

The various stances I've seen from posters on the forum:

1. Action was taken where space and time do not exist therefore this confers infinite speed/reactions on the character. (the most common interpretation)

2. Infinite speed is possible but only if the character takes action in a place where time does not exist, only space. It is not applicable if space doesn't exist. I believe this was the answer given in a previous thread on this topic by posters Ampchu and Tacocat (can't seem to find the thread). I had thought this was the consensus on this issue but apparently not.

3. There is no such thing as infinite speed, it is a lolfiction nonsense concept and not valid as per science.

4. Speed is distance/time, an action taken when timespace don't exist is different from actions taken inside the timestream where time flows and space exists thus those feats are not valid.

5. Case by case because...reasons.

'Question time' by Questionbox
1. Is there such a thing as 'infinite speed/reactions' for the purpose of VS debates? If yes, what is the exact requirement to fulfill to gain such speed/reactions?
2. GER is widely cited as an example of infinite speed/reactions using interpretation 1. However, I haven't seen this used for any other characters who have similar feats. I read on the DBS discussion thread earlier that GER was a "special" case thus it is only applicable for him. I would like to know what exactly makes it different from other feats and the special criteria. If some character fulfills this criteria, can it be interpreted as them having infinite speed/reactions?
3. How should characters who exist outside of time and space be treated when it comes to speed? Is speed an 'irrelevant' factor to them? What abilities would you say make speed irrelevant?
4. What about characters who cover infinite distances in finite amounts of time? Popular verses like Castlevania, SMT, TES apparently have characters who can do this.
5. What about moving in a 'legitimate' timestop (I believe one which is a 'true' timestop and not merely slowing time)? Can speed be derived from such feats?

These abilities and feats are rather common in fiction lately so a consensus on this will let many posters interpret such feats accordingly.
 
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Anomander Rake

Blaze of Glory
Three would exempt by default depending on what setting we're talking about. In hard science-fiction that adheres to the laws of physics it might apply but against settings that at best treat the laws of physics as an after thought not so much.

You have to find a middle ground usually between how much science you can apply to a setting, and how much you can't simply because it doesn't care about certain things.

Think five is the best, and we should judge each instance accordingly. There is a difference between being nonsensical, and being so tremendous that it is impossible to be quantified. The former would be like moving faster than the speed of dark. That would be filed under nonsensical, or resisting time-stop and time-travel for example.

Since there is no correlation there.

Something like killing concepts like distance and sound with your attacks is straight up reality warping, and achieves the effect of instantaneous attacks. Which, as already brought up in that thread, a lot of characters can dodge.
 

QuestionBox

my name and game the same
Will appreciate it if people can answer all the 5 questions.

Think five is the best, and we should judge each instance accordingly. There is a difference between being nonsensical, and being so tremendous that it is impossible to be quantified. The former would be like moving faster than the speed of dark. That would be filed under nonsensical, or resisting time-stop and time-travel for example..

So case by case then...in which case, what would you consider to be important requirements to be satisfied for a feat to be a case of 'infinite' speed? Any examples you believe are legitimate instances of such a feat?

Most common instances of such feats I have in mind which may classify as 'infinite speed' are characters destroying their universe/spacetime, then restoring it back which is technically a feat performed in the absence of spacetime.
 

Fang

Titan
It has "infinite speed" because it operated where time and space as dimensions were erased and the universe in the present didn't exist. Its power is to make that of others not be able to take actions or warp and nullify them so the target even if they did instigate and action no longer has it. The fact it did that against Diavolo's King Crimson while technically not existing is also a big deal.

That's why GER can't be blitzed has effectively infinite speed as far as our vernacular goes to describe its abilities. Time and space have no hold over hits movements, actions, or existence.

This isn't rocket science.
 

QuestionBox

my name and game the same
It has "infinite speed" because it operated where time and space as dimensions were erased and the universe in the present didn't exist. Its power is to make that of others not be able to take actions or warp and nullify them so the target even if they did instigate and action no longer has it. The fact it did that against Diavolo's King Crimson while technically not existing is also a big deal.

That's why GER can't be blitzed has effectively infinite speed as far as our vernacular goes to describe its abilities. Time and space have no hold over hits movements, actions, or existence.

This isn't rocket science.

Hmmm...I thought there were some other conditions but essentially, its interpretation 1. Acted when space and time didn't exist thus 'infinite speed'. Thank you for the explanation.
---

More opinions on this by other knowledgeable posters would be greatly appreciated.
 

Anomander Rake

Blaze of Glory
So case by case then...in which case, what would you consider to be important requirements to be satisfied for a feat to be a case of 'infinite' speed? Any examples you believe are legitimate instances of such a feat?

The Daedric Princes, and Aedra from TES whose bodies are infinite in size. Which means by virtue of that they are moving that fast when they move their entire bodies, and fight. Any times where an infinite distance is crossed through sheer speed.

Most common instances of such feats I have in mind which may classify as 'infinite speed' are characters destroying their universe/spacetime, then restoring it back which is technically a feat performed in the absence of spacetime.

Not really speed, and more destruction and recreation of a universe. Well, unless they also move that universe around and it is not finite in size. In which case that should count for the speed of their attacks I think.
 

Nep Heart

Retired
It's not only case-by-case, but also feat specific as well. There needs to be sufficient amount of evidence to prove a character is infinitely fast. Simply being in an area where the universe is gone is not nearly enough, not to mention it is a common fiction trope to have characters still exist while in a dimensional void since the author just didn't care and the fact that's not necessarily being aspatial and atemporal, especially since the portrayal usually depicts these characters interacting with space and time like anyone else once they leave that void. This is why nobody in DBS has infinite speed, time seems to affect them normally for the most part (like needing special powers or devices to time travel, the existence of parallel timeline counterparts, Zeno meeting himself in the future without being aware prior to this and so on all lead to the fact nobody in DBS is aspatial and atemporal, the most you can give is that they are acausal to a minor extent). This is not the same as Golden Experience Requiem who requires no need to exist in space and time, it's more akin to a living abstract concept who can choose to materialize into space and time without suffering consequences from affects at any point in space and time, which means it reacts and acts beyond flow of time.
 

Endless Mike

Getting too old for this shit
It's not only case-by-case, but also feat specific as well. There needs to be sufficient amount of evidence to prove a character is infinitely fast. Simply being in an area where the universe is gone is not nearly enough, not to mention it is a common fiction trope to have characters still exist while in a dimensional void since the author just didn't care and the fact that's not necessarily being aspatial and atemporal, especially since the portrayal usually depicts these characters interacting with space and time like anyone else once they leave that void. This is why nobody in DBS has infinite speed, time seems to affect them normally for the most part (like needing special powers or devices to time travel, the existence of parallel timeline counterparts, Zeno meeting himself in the future without being aware prior to this and so on all lead to the fact nobody in DBS is aspatial and atemporal, the most you can give is that they are acausal to a minor extent). This is not the same as Golden Experience Requiem who requires no need to exist in space and time, it's more akin to a living abstract concept who can choose to materialize into space and time without suffering consequences from affects at any point in space and time, which means it reacts and acts beyond flow of time.

In one comic, a user of the Time Gem stopped time in order to try to take Adam Warlock's Soul Gem, but he reacted and stopped him anyway despite the time stop, explaining it by saying something like "my domain is the soul, over which time holds no power". How would you interpret that?
 

Nep Heart

Retired
In one comic, a user of the Time Gem stopped time in order to try to take Adam Warlock's Soul Gem, but he reacted and stopped him anyway despite the time stop, explaining it by saying something like "my domain is the soul, over which time holds no power". How would you interpret that?

May likely just be the ability to adapt to different flows of time tbh. That, or the author thought it'll just be cool to show off an aspect of existence that can overcome the influence of time itself. Maybe more instances that support this may help perhaps? Seems to be something that could be elaborated more.
 

Perpetrator Rex

Well-Known Member
3, as it is the only answer based in logic: which in turn, is free from implicit bias. Most fictions adhere to 3, because the premise is nonsense as it, factually, doesn't mean anything/could mean anything.

To take a stance outside of 3 would equate to staging a fight with the rules based in the fiction you are a fanboy/girl of the most. This should be unacceptable if all things are admittedly fair. Allowing nonsense to mean a specific thing, based on a small sphere of influence, is a slippery slope. You could never get away with such a thing in a real argument.

Hercule is alive and fully functional, currently, in "nospace and notime". LOL
 
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Endless Mike

Getting too old for this shit
Typically I rationalize fictional scenarios where things are 'outside of space and time' as being outside of normal space and time. In other words, space and time exist there, but they are different and unconnected to the spacetime we're used to.
 
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