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Is Bankai Ichigo the only character able to move above shunpo/sonido/hirenkyaku speed

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Giorno Giovannax, Oct 16, 2006.

  1. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    I have this question that has been nagging me for a while. It's about Bankai Ichigo and his speed. So far, if you read my Bleachverse Analysis in the meta-battledome, I have described it very well but then a thought came to me.


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    You see, we all know GJ is very strong yet even when throwing Ichigo far and being inches from hitting him, Ichigo was was able to dodge his attack.

    Even when Ichigo put on the mask, neither his speed nor power changed yet he was blitzing GJ.

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    Now, the question is that is Ichigo the only one that can move faster or move fast without the need of sonido or shunpo but just that the stronger ones will still be able to see him move and react just not move that fast.

    Or will the stronger ones be able to move that fast as well?

    My question is kind hard to get but I hope someone can answer this question for me because it's the only thing I can't quite grasp yet about Ichigo's speed in Bankai Form.
     
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  2. omg laser pew pew! is feeling greedy

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    I think released GJ and higher Espada, Aizen and his admins, possibly vaizards, Yama-ji, most likely shunko Yoruichi and Soi Fon and maybe the Pimp Daddy Trio are either faster or equal to him
     
  3. cygnus Ta Det Lungt

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    He seems to move around faster but they can see him and are fast enough to react. So...yeah I dunno...
     
  4. snakeye123 Member

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    im not sure, because byakuya seemed to think that he was almost level with yoruchi, "the goddess of flash-step",
    Spoiler:

    and when ichigo confronted him he said something like "i see you've mastered shunpo".
    Spoiler:

    so at that stage i think ichigo was equal to him, but later on when he defended from all 1,000,000's of his blades that was faster. (or is shunpo ONLY direction speed?)

    anyway, I think that shunpo has different levels of speed - simply about how strong you are.
     
  5. jumin BYAAAH!

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    well.. shunpo isn't just one speed.. when yamaji was facing off against his 2 pupils, the one captain that where's the pink robe shunpo'ed his VC away, and yamaji commented on how much his shunpo improved, saying how he was impressed with how far he gets with just one step.
     
  6. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    this is a pretty hard question to answer as shunpo/sonido/hirenkyaku are techniques and presumably don't have a set speed to them, it all depends on the users usage.

    I would say Ichigo's ban kai has granted a speed that is probably above almost everyone we've currently seen in action properly. How it'll stack up against monsters like Aizen and Ulquiorra is left to be seen and its tricky to compare it to that of someone like Hirako who we didn't really see enough of.

    I must greatly disagree with this statement though o_O

    Ichigo was able to regularly throw out far more powerful attacks with his mask on and his speed is increased even further,
     
  7. Dr.Douchebag Terry Wrist

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    if bankai ichigo cant trouble GJ with his speed then i dont think he is the fastest but definetly faster than high level captains

    vaizard bankai ichigo ..its unknown if his speed is affected though and i wouldnt say he was blitzing GJ he was just suprised at the sudden increase in strength
     
  8. zagman505 Shakou, Hitsuki!

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    well hopefully he's the fastest. his bankai mainly gives him speed, if he's slower than other people when using bankai, then that's a really sad speed boost.
     
  9. Spy_Smasher Well-Known Member

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    Trick Question! For every character except Ichigo, shunpo/sonido/hirenkyaku speed is their top speed! By definition, the answer is "yes." :nod

    :p
     
  10. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    But the thing is, we don't really know if the mask boosts them. The only thing Hirako did when he put his mask was blast a cero, that's all. No sign of power-up or anything, which leads me to believe that the mask only allows you to use the techniques of the Hollow, just that the strength of it depends on the Hollow since it is the hollow's technique as the hollow gets stronger (and that also depends on the shinigami since they are both the same and thus get stronger at the same time), the techniques will be more powerful


    You also have to remember that Ichigo's problem was never about speed, but about lacking powerful attacks (His Getsuga Tenshou was MUCH weaker than Shirosaki) and controlling Shirosaki. Even GJ admitted that he was fast in Bankai form and like I showed before, Ichigo was still slightly faster than GJ or else his head would have been taken off right there and then when GJ blitzed him. The problem was that he couldn't make a dent against GJ.

    When he put on the mask, that killed two birds with one stone. He was able to shut Shirosaki up for now and also he gained Shirosaki's Kuroi Getsuga, which is the true version of Getsuga Tenshou in Bankai form and thus alot stronger than Ichigo's version. The reason why he looks "faster" in Vaizard Mode is because he was using the speed of Tensa Zangetsu in the same as Shirosaki did against Byakuya, i.e was blitzing instead of trying to look stylish or pretty. That is all.
     
  11. khaos Member

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    ichigo also used the black getsuga without the mask on, its the bankai version of the attack..
    ichigo's power increased dramatically when he put on the mask, remember he couldnt even touch GJ with tensa zangetsu without the mask..

    as for his speed
    well, the point is, we dont really know how shunpo works so its kinda hard to say.. some people say its a single step and the more reiatsu the user has the further/faster the step
    on the other hand, a shunpo manouver like senka is (imo) impossible to execute with just one step, unless its possible to change trajectory within the step
    also, i dont know if this has been brought up before, but at the end of episode 54 (iirc) after ichigo fistfucks the 3 VC's that came after renji and rukia you can see byakuya running at a VERY high speed, while the VC's are falling in slow motion, at ichigo.. i was thinking that could be the slowmo visualisation of shunpo

    at any rate, i think that if someone is sufficiently stronger than bankai ichigo in terms of reiatsu it would be possible for them to outspeed ichigo.. his bankai aint that h4xx3d
     
  12. wiplok Wonderful.

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    well, ichigo is still a newbie, and i think that's not near his maximum speed, i mean, in around episode 56 when kyoraku gets nanao to safety, yamamoto says that he improved his shunpo, that he is able to go further distances blablabla, so if 1 can improve distance, why not speed.
     
  13. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    you pretty much have the main sequence of events speedwise covered for the first fight so I'll be referencing those.

    It should be noted that after Ichigo gets behind grimmjaw that grimmjaw easily blocked the following attack before a quick trading of blows before Grimmjaw smacks Ichigo in the head.

    On your point about Ichigo blitzing in comparison to a more fancy attack pattern, I think he uses a direct approach for a good part of their first fight. Especially the page before your first scan he attacks directly but grimmjaw is capable to catching his sword easily.

    Its been heavily implied throughout the series that having the mask will lead to a boost in reiatsu as you are effectively able to pull reiatsu out from two sources rather than just one.

    ---

    Now onto the post mask aquiring speed stuff, I am pretty much 90% sure that he is faster than he was before.



    here he's a moderate distance away from grimmjaw and throws out a getsuga tenshou as an attack.



    onto the next page, he's actually outrun his own getsuga tenshou and got right behind grimmjaw from a considerably further distance away than he did before. Then he fires another BGT off from the other direction to squash grimmjaw in the middle who is unable to react this time.
     
  14. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    The GT he used on GJ easily has the same power as when he uses bankai, the reason why it looks stronger when he put on the mask then when he did in bankai is because he was able to use Shirosaki's reiatsu as well which is the basis for black GT. Ichigo tried to imitate it but could not because his reiatsu was not the same type of reiatsu used for the Kuroi Getsuga

    Shirosaki and Ichigo have the same power, so it was never about power just that the technique was Shirosaki's and Ichigo's was a poor imitation because he does not have the same type of reiatsu as Shirosaki.

    When he put on the mask, it enabled him to use Shirosaki's spirit pressure and thus use Shirosaki's GT.

    It's like Hirako and his cero. The cero is his hollow's technique and thus without the mask, he can't use it or if he tried, it would be much weaker than his hollow's because it does not use shinigami's reiatsu but hollow-type reiatsu.

    The only thing the vaizard mask does is enable for the shinigami to use the hollow's spirit pressure along with his own and thus use not only his techniques but also the techniques created by their hollow.
     
  15. Orofan On a quest to master all Jutsu

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    Does Shunpo even matter against Aizen, what good does moving fast do if you only THINK your moving when in reality your standing still.

    Aizen's Shikai is godly.
     
  16. khaos Member

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    @ sworddancer: well we only see ichigo fight with a mask on while he is in bankai so there's no way to tell, i'd definetly believe you if vaizard ichigo fired a KGT without going into bankai
     
  17. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    That is true, but when you look back at when Shirosaki used bankai against Byakuya, he is doing the exact same thing.

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    And that was in bankai form as well, not anything above.

    And also we know that Shirosaki and Ichigo are equal in power but the only thing that separated them was instinct

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    That was the only thing that separated the two and that is why Shirosaki looked stronger because he had instinct and thus the mentality of a warrior while Ichigo did not.

    The reason why Ichigo looked faster was because he adapted that mentality and thus decided to stop playing around and get serious and thus was easily able to do to GJ what Shirosaki did to Byakuya. The only difference is that he was able to use Shirosaki's GT and thus was able to use it.

    This is Shirosaki using GT against Ichigo:

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    Has the same destructive power as the one Ichigo used with the mask yet Shirosaki did it using bankai and also Ichigo survived and was only wounded thus proving my point that Shirosaki = Ichigo.

    Thus, since Shirosaki and Ichigo have the same reiatsu, then there was no increase in power (most like there was increase in how much he was able to use, increasing the reserves of reiatsu), just that Ichigo was able to use Shirosaki's version of the GT, which is more powerful than Ichigo's because Shirosaki used it first using his own reiatsu and thus it was a hollow-based technique and since the mask allows the shinigami to also pull from the reiatsu of their hollow, it enabled Ichigo to use it as well.

    Also, when talking about the boost, you gain alot more than a normal shinigami or hollow but that doesn't make it stronger, just means that as you refine it or strengthen it, you will be much stronger than a shinigami or hollow since you use both reiatsus.

    Like I said, speed was never the issue for Ichigo against GJ, but lack of powerful attacks or else GJ would have taken Ichigo's head off in that first fight if Ichigo was slower than GJ. GJ specifically said that with that bankai, Ichigo could not hurt him, there was never an indication of being slow.
     
  18. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    He won't be able to do because Shirosaki created that technique while in bankai as he specifically said so:

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    That means that the only way for Ichigo to use KGT is to be in bankai and use the mask because Shirosaki created in bankai form and with his own reiatsu, which are the two requirements for the KGT.

    That is why you also don't see Shirosaki use GT in shikai form because it is not his technique and also Ichigo uses his own reiatsu for that technique, not Shirosaki. Thus, if Shirosaki tried to pull it off, it will not be stronger than Ichigo's.

    Getsuga Tenshou: Ichigo's reiatsu is used

    KGT: Shirosaki's reiatsu is used

    Thus, that is why the mask is necessary for Ichigo to fight at full power in bankai because then he can use KGT in its truest form.

    @Orofan: That was hypnosis. Since Komamura already saw the release of Aizen's shikai, he was trapped in Aizen's hypnosis and thus Aizen was able to make him see another Aizen talking to Tousen while Aizen was able to move in for the Black Coffin spell.
     
  19. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    wait wait...you can't use a shirosaki vs byakuya speed example to compare with Vaizard Ichigo vs grimmjaw o_O

    grimmjaw is >>> byakuya in terms of his speed

    the same feat performed on two completely different people isn't really a great basis for comparison in this case :/

    Certainly Ichigo and Shirosaki themselves are equivalent to each other, being the opposite sides of one soul as it were. The point is that when you combine them together you get a greater reiatsu and therefore greater speed, power and so on.

    I am still certain that is the point of the mask (or the breaking of it for arrancr), to gain access to and combine both parts of your soul to remove the limitations on your growth.

    thats a fair point, though I feel that reiatsu is a key ingrediant in the speed with which a shinigami can move as pretty much all speed feats we've seen have been proportional to the wielders reiatsu unless they were a specialist like yoruichi/soi fong (although both have massive reiatsu's as well)

    yeah i know, but I didn't actually talk about power in my second post seeing, as the objective of your thread is to question the speed of ban kai Ichigo.
     
  20. Dr.Douchebag Terry Wrist

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    actually ichigo outrunning his own GT isnt that impressive imo as byakuya was able to dodge it

    and here is where the other arm discussion comes into play grimm was still able to see ichigo whats stopping him from using his left to punch ichigo or something like that
     
  21. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    dodging an attack isn't quite the same as firing an attack off that is as explosive as GT and being able to be all the way around the other side of it to face it again. Thats like playing tennis, serving the ball and then running around to return it before it arrives.
     
  22. Orofan On a quest to master all Jutsu

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    Hypnosis negates speed completely. He can make you think your moving when you are not.
     
  23. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    I wouldn't say he negates speed completely, just negates perception of reality like he said he can make a dragonfly look like a dragon and how he fooled Komamura.


    Come on people, I need more answers so I can get more information on this topic for my analysis!
     
  24. Pimp of Pimps But prostitute to all

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    No one, not even bankai Ichigo, can move as fast/faster than shunpo/Sonida etc with just their normal speed. Because these techinques are specifically designed to enhance one's normal speed. You one's shunpo will always be > one's normal speed.

    Of course, their are probaley people who's normal speed is faster/as fast than other people shunpos.
     
  25. jonat3 Active Member

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    Ok, Renji and Ichigo both blocked Byakuya when both weren't capable of shyunpou. So, obviously you still have a chance against shyunpou, even if you are slower. If you can WIN is a different matter, since both of them were definately weaker than Byakuya at the time.

    According to Ishida, his speed technique is superior to shyunpou. Though i'm not certain if he's biased or not, i do tend to believe his judgement. As a technique, it may be faster than shyunpou, but people with superior reiatsu than Ishida may still prove to be faster, even if shyunpou is inferior.

    Now, shyunpou's between users can vary. Yama is certainly much faster than either Ukitake or Shunsui. In fact, i'm under the impression that Aizen only used shyunpou on Renji, without using hypnosis (just watch the anime of that scene). Aizen was so fast, Renji couldn't even follow his speed and he could follow Byakuya's speed at his level. Aizen was also able to calmly block Ichigo's bankai speed, though we are not certain if Ichigo was at his fastest at the time. Above situation coupled with the fight against Grimmjow, seems to suggest that if one's reiatsu is high enough, one can easily match Ichigo's bankai speed.

    In the fight with Grimmjow, Ichigo seemed slightly faster than Grimmjow, but it must be noted he still wasn't fast enough. And Aizen is supposedly even more powerful, so Aizen may be able to go even faster than ichigo, though only in short spurts. Only Ichigo's bankai allows for continuous speed.
     
  26. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    See, that is in reality what I want to know. Is Bankai Ichigo the only that can continously move at a high speed without having to stop and use the above techniques again?

    Thank you for your analysis, jonat3.
     
  27. Trias For in the sleep of death...

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    We don't know whether Renji can use Shyunpo near Byakuya's level. GJ couldn't match Ichigo's speed. Anime isn't our primary source. Power =/ Speed.
     
  28. jonat3 Active Member

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    Renji CAN'T use shyunpou. But perhaps he learned it at Urahara, but that's not relevant for this discussion.

    As for Grimmjow, he couldn't match Ichigo's speed only after he went vaizard mode. Before that, ichigo just wasn't fast enough to land a fatal hit (though i'm under the impression he was slightly faster even without vaizard mode).
     
  29. Dr.Douchebag Terry Wrist

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    well what i meant to say is that GT doesnt move extremely fast a feat like running behind it can be done by normal bankai ichigo imo
     
  30. Code Zoamelgustar

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    While he's completely dissappeared from Grimmjow's attacks the first time they fought to appear behind him and just not be able to cut his arms. In the second case, it was basically the same thing, but when Grimmjow blocked (he was quick enough to do that), Ichigo used another Getsuga Tenshou, to injure him. He did get behind him after a Getsuga Tenshou, but as I stated above, he even did that in the first battle. The first battle, Grimmjow commented on "All your Bankai does is increase speed" while in the second fight, he said "That power". The power up seems more of just a well reiatsu (power) increase. Though it was stated earlier in the manga that reiatsu = more mobility for shinigami. But one thing to consider in their first fight, Ichigo may have been affected by him trying to repressed his hollow side, and we know that at least at first, he can't keep his Bankai speed up the entire time, and we never saw the beginning of his fight with Grimmjow in Bankai form if I recall correctly.

    About being faster than Sonido/Shunpo/Hierenkyaku, well we don't know how ti works. It could be the difference in "battle speed" is merely how often one can repeat it, or how long they can travel, or else it's possible it could indeed vary. Though Uryuu himself said his (I think referring to how well he can do it specifically), his Hirenkyaku is superior to a shinigami's Shunpo.
     
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