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Is Haku Jonin level?

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by Grinningfox, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Grinningfox Active Member

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    he just seems so underpowered imo but I’m open to having my mind changed
     
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  2. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    Nah, he’s a Chūnin-level. His speed is high enough to a point where he could keep up with some Jōnin, and he can use advanced handseals, but his taijutsu, stamina and genjutsu ability is far below average.

    He’s basically only got one trick and it’s to try and disable his opponents with senbon. Any Jōnin could run at him and disable him at close range or make his Ice Mirrors useless.
     
  3. Kubish Well-Known Member

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    hype: yes
    feats: no
     
  4. Kellogem Well-Known Member

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    Id say chuunin generally, but has a solid jounin attack - the mirrors - which is he can pull of could defeat opponents above his level, like jounins.

    but he is lacking on too many areas to considered jounin level.
     
  5. Reviewing Logic (((((((( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ͜ʖ ͡°) ͡°)))))))) Verified Asshole

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    he has many some portrayed to have some Jounin aspects especially hype wise like that anbu stuff but I feel he is mid to (stretching) high chuunin overall

    I mean at first his mirror tech was a faster Naruto and Sasuke but then KC0 Naruto closed the gap

    his one hand seal is pretty good and useful but if we are talking about overall actual Jounins and not fodder ones then there are other ways to win battles then fast ninjutsu execution time as shown through out the series

    it isn't going to help him that much in pushing up his rank

    I mean Chunnin exam Neji would likely easily handle him let alone Naruto KC0 VOTE Naruto and CM 3T Sasuke would run circles around him
     
  6. Buuhan ⋄ C I N D E R ⋄

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    No he is at most chunin level.
     
  7. Reviewing Logic (((((((( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ͜ʖ ͡°) ͡°)))))))) Verified Asshole

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    still if we are talking about new gen then anime wise everyone in the new gen bar Shinki and Mitsuki get wrecked by him


    but then again the new gen ain't really shit:catskully
     
  8. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    hes high jounin level, i thought that was established when it was confirmed he was stronger than Zabuza who had beaten Kakashi in thier first encounter.
     
  9. Kyu ~ █▬█ █ ▀█▀ ~

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    Haku is Chūnin lvl.
     
  10. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    We haven't seen him use plain taijutsu, we haven't seen him use genjutsu, and he has enough stamina to keep a jutsu like ice mirrors going while constantly shunshin'ing back and forth between each mirror.

    He also has enough stamina to activate another mirror and intercept Kakashi even after Naruto punched him so hard his mask broke.

    So, that's a bunch of bullshit.


    We clearly saw Haku was above an average jonin's level when him, Zabuza, Gari, and Paku were lined up as edo tensei. They all flared their chakra and Haku's chakra shroud was much bigger than Gari or Pakura.

    So, there you have it. Haku has a higher chakra level than two actual jonin who were each famous within their villages for their kkg.


    These "Is [X] Jonin Level?" questions always get such basic responses because people have to justify how characters like Lee, Gaara, Sasuke, Neji, and Naruto could be as strong as they were and yet only be genin or chunin in title.

    Haku's speed, chakra, hand signs, and marksmanship were all above the level of an average jonin.



    Really, Sasuke being able to keep up thanks to Sharingan isn't a reflection of Sasuke's power level. It just shows how much of a benefit Sharingan offers to the user.

    It's exactly the same as VoTE1 where Sasuke was getting roflstomped by KN0 Naruto and then could suddenly push back just because he got 3T and his eyesight could keep track of Naruto. Nothing about Sasuke was improved except for his eyesight and yet he could start hitting back.

    Dojutsu vision and sensing are so broken than Kishi had to start conveniently writing them out of fights with PIS and inexplicable moments where dojutsu fail to see things that they are specifically shown and described as being able to see.
     
  11. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    He got beaten by Base Wave Arc Sasuke in a taijutsu exchange. He also scores a puny 1 in the DB in taijutsu and genjutsu, and only a 2 in stamina.

    Running at Kakashi and intercepting him after being punched is a feat of resilience rather than stamina. He used Ice Mirrors, Water Needles, and has a brief taijutsu scuffle. He didn’t do anything impressive in that regard.

    Haku’s chakra shroud being bigger than Pakura and Gari’s in one panel doesn’t mean anything. They might have low chakra reserves, or Kabuto (Kishimoto) just wanted to show Haku off more.
     
  12. Omote Well-Known Member

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    :drake

    He's Jounin level, do NOT let how foolish Part 1's inconsistencies were put you into a Genjutsu. He got tagged by Sasuke, but that was the same Sasuke in that arc who pretty much one shotted someone who was Chuunin level. Part 1 was a stupid mess with half of it getting retconned out of existence by part 2.

    By the time he's an Edo, Haku cements himself as Jounin level for sure.

    He:

    *Slaughters dozens of Jounin fodder along with Zabuza

    *Tanks a tag team attack from Gai and Lee without Edo Regen kicking in

    *Manages to tag and defend against Sai's jutsu, the same Sai that Danzo said was the strongest of his generation(the generation that included Jounin rank Neji btw).

    If none of that is Jounin level, then what is? :kanyeshrug
     
  13. Nep Nep Bedpost-Kun

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    He didn't have killing intent with Sasuke and Naruto.

    He could have killed them before Sasuke's sharingan reawakening and Naruto's tailed beast chakra leak. He purposely avoided vital spots with his needles the entire time.

    They showed an episode where he infiltrated that one tower or whatever and took out multiple foes in the dark.

    I really don't think we saw what he could do in terms of what was said.

    I'm rewatching Shippuden atm so haven't gotten to edo tensei bit just yet but Onmote seems to be well versed in it.
     
  14. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    Let me ask one thing :

    Is Shikamaru (who passed the Exams) at the level of Chuunin in your eyes?

    Quite frankly he is not in mine. He is great at strategy but in practically every other area he's mid gennin level at best.

    Yet he got selected as Chuunin.

    So did the Wave Brothers.

    In regards to Sasuke, when he ordered to chase Gaara he was told by Genma that his abilities were Chuunin level yet Sasuke was not promoted.

    To put it simply we have to regard characters being Chuunin's in two seperate ways :-

    Chuunin as a rank

    Chuunin in terms of abilities.

    The same goes for Jounin too.

    There are characters with the RANK of Jounin and characters with Jounin Level ABILITIES.

    Coming back to Haku :-

    He's not Jounin level in overall abilities. If he was he would have beaten Sasuke in the initial Taijutsu exchange on the bridge (Zabuza even said that Haku lost in speed so I doubt Haku was holding back in speed).

    That being said Haku can take Jounin out with his Ice Mirrors. The question is are those Jounin people with the Rank of Jounin or the Abilities of Jounin ?
     
  15. Nep Nep Bedpost-Kun

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    The issue with that theory. Is that Sasuke's speed at the time is never ranked. Basically, you have to assume that Sasuke's speed can't be above genin or even chunin level here, even though Haku can have some jonin tier abilities.

    Incidentally... There's already a rank for those who are only skilled in one area. We add the prefix Special to their rank to indicate they are that rank in only one area.
     
  16. Baki Sand Jounin

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    On one hand he was beaten by KN1 Naruto. On the other hand, Jounins were pretty much fodder by the end of the series.

    So with the same feats, he's a Chuunin in part 1 and a Jounin in part 2.
     
  17. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    If Sasuke's speed is chuunin level when he fought against Haku, then that means Rock Lee's weighted speed is Jounin level at least and his weightless speed is above that (Kage level?) all in Part 1 and that leaves no words to describe Part 2 speed.

    The only 'Special' rank is Special-Jounin like Anko. There is no Special-Chuunin rank to my knowledge.
     
  18. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    If Kishimoto gives someone the Chūnin title, then they are at the level of a Chūnin. The problem was that many of the Part 1 Genin were already at that level in terms of power, but didn’t show the initiative and leadership to be promoted. Shikamaru had both. If his combat power was below average, he wouldn’t have been promoted.

    There’s no way of proving whether or not the shinobi Haku killed were Jōnin or Chūnin, since the latter were also participating in the war. Killing some fodder Chūnin isn’t really that impressive since Haku is a powerful Chūnin level in his own right.

    Also, it was never ever actually confirmed whether or not he killed any of them. IIRC he was hitting them with needles and there was blood, but we also saw Sakura healing people so it’s possible that he wasn’t killing all of them.
     
  19. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    That sort of goes against the whole point of the Chuunin Exams though. Remember winning the exams does not mean anything. The overall winner might not get selected as Chuunin while someone who failed at the first fight would.

    Also Shikamaru demonstrated no leadership or initiative at all. He did demonstrate tactics though.
     
  20. Nep Nep Bedpost-Kun

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    Ebisu sensei is a Special Jonin.

    Secondly, Lee trains nothing but his physical aspects so it wouldn't be overly surprising. Esp not with his gates.
     
  21. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    Yeah, I mentioned Special-Jounin is a rank I am aware off but there is no such thing as a Special-Chuunin.

    Regarding Lee: That would mean that Weightless Rock Lee in Part 1 (Not Counting Gates as I never did in my above post) was as fast as a Kage and this was still unremarked on by practically everyone in the Chuunin exams or Kimmimaro.

    That also means that Sasuke who reached Lee-level speed in Part 1 and became MUCH faster in Part 2 should have been literally blitzing everyone including the Raikage....
     
  22. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    Naruto and Sasuke working together before their training were strong enough to release Kakashi from Water prison jutsu. Together they were childs play for Haku who could have easily killed them at anytime and only chakra shroud Naruto could turn the tides. At that time Naruto already had four times the chakara Kakashi had at base.If one tailed chakra shrouds were enough to help the ninja at the war survive Obito, Madara and tentails then I think regular chakra shroud Naruto has the chakara of en elite jounin.

    But Haku was stated to be stronger than Zabuza and Zabuza was Jounin level. If for some reason you want to rethink that than he was atleast chunnin level and Haku was stronger than that but thats really like pushing a false narrative. I'm going to say this because I'm pretty sure it was confirmed by the Manga.


    FUCKING HAKU WAS STRONGER THAN ONE OF THE LEGENDARY SWORDS OF THE MIST BY HIS OWN ADMISSION USING FUCKING NEEDLES AND MIRRORS AND WAS FUCKING STRONG ENOUGH FOR KABUTO TO RESURRECT HIM. NOT ONLY DID HE SAVE ZABUZA BY TRICKING KAKASHI BUT ALSO SAVED HIM AGAIN BY BLITZING INBETWEEN AN ATTACKING KAKASHI USING CHIDORI. THATS PRETTY FAST AND HE TOOK A KYUUBI PUNCH TO THE JAW AND WASN'T DROPPED. SAYING HE WASN'T JOUNIN LEVEL IS LIKE SAYING GARRA IN ONE TAILS MODE IS BELOW JOUNIN AS WELL.
     
  23. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    That's not how speed works. If Lee weightless is Kakashi level speed and Sasuke is much faster than that makes him base gai level speed who is slower thansage mode naruto speed who is slower than the raikage who somehow had slower reactions speed than minato who both were the fastest but still not fast enough to tag Madara who was many times slower than eight gates Gai. It's also wrong to compare the taijutsu of a kid to a full adult man.

    But gated lee was fast enough to zip around in the air without touching the ground he's faster than Kakashi was. The fact that Sasuke two years after fighting Haku was strong enough to beat a thousand jounin speaks volumes to how strong he actually was preskip. 6 months after fighting haku Naruto was fighting a jinchuiriki in full form. don't underestimate how elite Naruto and sasuke were preskip. Haku might have been weaker than kakashi but even that is debateable (I know i'll get killed for that one ). Even Kakashi said their are people younger than Haku and stronger than him suggesting that he saw Haku as a serious threat. Not only is Haku jounin level but probably would be a prime canidate for Anbu.
     
  24. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    Yeah but not winning a match doesn’t mean that you didn’t show off exemplary combat prowess. That’s all that matters in that regard. Shikamaru’s genius and tactical mind would serve him well as a team leader hence leadership skill. That’s also part of why he got promoted.
     
  25. Sablés Well-Known Member

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    Hype put Haku as Zabuza's peer in part one. Was also shown to be just as fast as Kakashi.

    Part 2 and he's dealing with Sai's bombs, tanking blows from Lee and Gai, then matches Kakashi's speed again.

    You can argue part one is dubious but there's no doubting Haku is jonin level in P2. There's an irreconcilable difference in feats, despite Haku never getting stronger.
     
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  26. President Raiden

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    Difficult to tell because we have seen Jonin go down quickly. I think it's safe to argue that he was at least Chuunin level. But with his abilities, he certainly could have been written as a stronger opponent.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  27. Godaime Tsunade Densetsu no Kamo

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    How, exactly? Wave Arc Sasuke was canonically leagues behind Kakashi in taijutsu and speed, and yet he schooled Haku at close range without even activating his Sharingan. Zabuza fights on equal footing with Kakashi, while Sasuke quivers in fear against Zabuza’s mere presence.

    IIRC the “hype” people refer to with Part 1 Haku is Zabuza stating that “in some ways” Haku was better than he was. And this is true: Haku can disable people using nothing more than Senbon, and he can use a more impressive elemental ninjutsu: Hyōton. But he’s obviously still weaker overall.

    He’s an ET, so I don’t think he feels physical pain. He was sent flying meters backwards by Gai and Lee and didn’t bother engaging them at all afterwards. In fact, I don’t think he actually attacked anyone successfully that wasn’t a fodder.

    He didn’t match Kakashi’s speed either. He jumped in front of him to take his hit, which he wasn’t capable of stopping..there’s a difference.
     
  28. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    Haku is not weaker than Zabuza. I dont even know why were having this conversation his zipping around was too fast for anybody else to see except Sasuke when he turned his sharigan on..
     
  29. Silnaem Nothing for Wisdom

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    So no, I'd say he is kage level.
     
  30. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    He's Elite Jounin.

    He gave Kakashi some trouble even during the WA and former himself states he's his superior.
     
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