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Is Mei the best kage?

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by Silnaem, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    What makes a good kage?
    For me (and by general consensus) it is the ability to lead in all areas, the ability to guide and the ability to protect and nurture.

    Mei:
    - can fight really well, village scale
    - diplomatic finesse to lead her village out of a rough position

    Firstly, her fighting ability. . .
    Is good enough to get her the top position (succeeded a PJ and Gengetsu) w/o relying on her KG. Then add on said KG and she is not lacking in any regard

    Second, her leadership. . .
    • Her restoring relations is like Iran going from being sanctioned by the whole world to being an economic powerhouse in its region.
    Now when you consider that the Leaf, with Hiruzen, couldn't sort out a minor after with Kumo (Hyuga Incident) w/o bloodshed, it really shows how good she is.
    • As for tactical ability, her ability to work in combination with the other kage showed that she's good on her toes.
    She was also the one who deduced the effectiveness of the speech by Gaara during FKS. In doing so she not only accurately explained how his speech had won over the others, but she also explained exactly what caused the disagreement in the first place (selfishness). • • One could even say that her not fighting for power (leadership) when called out as a possible Akatsuki base shows great maturity and recognition of what was important.
    See, had she tried and won to lead the army, the others still wouldn't trust her and the SA success would've been endangered. Her holding back shows that she recognised this danger.

    Compared to others . . .
    • All of them can fight, so there's not much to say here.
    Except maybe that her style has no direct weakness. Consider that Hokage have always been very mortal, having no proper defense (therefore vulnerable to OHKO moves), Kazekage presumably weak in close range, Tsuchikage use risky technique (weight change requires getting close, while Dust Release takes eons to get off) and Raikage are One Trick Ponies (very good trick, tho). Now while one could say she is the most elemental ninjutsu reliant of all her colleagues, based on the likelihood of er not relying on her KG in Kirigakure and her reactions during the Madara fight we can safely say that getting close and personal is no problem for her; she can rough and tumble if need be.
    • As for leadership, other pale in comparison
    I've already mentioned Hiruzen not being able to peacefully sort out the Hyuga Incident. Does this seem like an exaggeration? It could've yielded a double wammy for the Leaf had Naji gone the same path as Sasuke, not such a small matter now is it? There's also Tobirama and his Hitler-esque (exterminate the others) tactics, which created so many villains (Oro took his ET, Madara went baddy coz of his alienation, Tobito by extension, Danzo took a note from the same leadership school), Minato who couldn't solve the only serious matter he had to deal with in as a kage (Kurama was a consequence of this), Tsunade who couldn't recognise and put Danzo in his place (jail). The Leaf is riddled with poor leadership in its history books.
    In Suns we have Rasa who deceitfully killed of his best asset (Pakura) and almost repeated that by trying to kill Gaara. And even then he failed!
    Ohnoki even worked with Akatsuki!
    The Raikage were always power hungry and thirsty for war, losing Ay(3) by consequence.

    In fact, the only thing we can call Mei out on is her handling of her Jinchuuriki. In which case: so did the others mess up(1), we can't be are she was in power when her Jinchuuriki were taken(2) so we can't even be sure she should be blamed in that regard.

    All in all, she is the best performing of all kage, no?
     
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  2. Polar New Member

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    She might not be the best kage but she is quite underrated imo.
     
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  3. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    Do you think there might come a time when she is overrated?
    Say such a time does come, how high do you think she could be rated?
     
  4. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow 203176

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    A4 is the best Kage. What makes him good Kage?
    1. He is good at fighting(attack fast, has good defence etc.):awesome.
    2.Diplomacy? Of course. His left punch is violent way of solving conflicts, while his right punch is a peaceful way.:zaru
    3.He likes good party(after every stay, you will find holes in windows or walls:kermit).
    4.Strategic genius? Sure. He attacks everyone, he consider as an enemy. Sacrificing an arm to hit someone in the face is also a good deal:gokuskully.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  5. Avalon

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    :drake

    What exactly was Hiruzen supposed to do in that situation? He handled that in the best way possible.
     
  6. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    Ain't that an unfair question tho?

    The thing about diplomacy is that there is no calculation that can be done to find an exact answer.

    It comes down to the interpersonal skills of each to get a better (since there is no definite 'best') outcome than possible worst.

    The only think we can objectively judge are the end results. In which case, Hiruzen failed terribly. Consider:
    1. Kumo was in the wrong
    He couldn't even prove that properly
    2. Kumo threatened war for the Byakugan
    How soft do you have to be for an invader to be the one who claims damages, and wins!?

    To contrast, consider that in her then position, Mei could've mobilised an army (boost her village's military strength) and even if not gone to war, still had rough relations with her fellow kage. In such a case, would we say she failed? Of course not, as there is no stick by which to measure. The fact that she obtained such wonderful results is all we have to prove that she is good at diplomacy.

    So when we judge results, we look at how much the situation Mei was in improved, while Hiruzen only incurred a loss, to judge that she is better at diplomacy
     
  7. Avalon

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    Hiruzen prevented a war and prevented Kumo from discovering the secrets the Byagukan, it was a complete success.
     
  8. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    Someone walks into your house, kidnaps your daughter. You rush out to him and kill him.
    He then turns around and threatens war unless you sacrifice another family member. You agree.
    Would you call that success?

    The situation had Kumo as the aggressor and in the end it was Konoha who lost a valuable shinobi. They were bullied!

    Remember, its not just what was achieved (something is always achieved in diplomacy, strictly speaking). Its about the cost of said achievement. The relationship between sacrifice and reward, past and aftermath, which determines whether one did poorly or well. And once it he been decided which side of the success/failure line they sit on, you then look at best and worst possible outcomes (based mostly on theory, since there is no absolute) to see how well/poorly you did.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  9. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow 203176

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    He didn't have a choice, coz Kumo would beat that Konoha.
     
  10. Avalon

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    Yes.

    Feel free to tell us what you would have done in Hiruzen's shoes instead.
     
  11. Alita54 Alita>You

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    She is the sexiest female kage that's for sure. :druul

    With kurotsuchi coming in a close 2nd.
     
  12. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow 203176

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    2nd(IMO). Tsunade is better(for me).
     
  13. Zef Dark Magician

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    What?:wot

    She's arguably the worst.
    :drake

    She gave up against Madara. She's the type of Kage that would let her village get destroyed just because the enemy is too strong for her.
     
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  14. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    Smart move turns ng this onto me but I'm not falling for it.

    So let's do an analysis of the situation:
    1. Pre- and post-affair
    Before the Hyuga Affair, Konohamaru had no direct threat to any of their personnel.
    After the HA, they had suffered an invasion (Intel on security etc was gotten) and LST a valuable member of their forces.
    So right now, the score is 2-0 against them.

    2. Possible Outcomes
    Okay, your argument isn't that Konoha didn't lose, but rather that they could've lost far worse, right?
    In which case, we shouldn't forget that they also could've ended up far better. To judge success or failure, we must consider which side (better vs worse case scenario) he falls closer to

    In that case, the worst case scenario is war, right?
    Its not losing the Byakugan because war would occur precisely because he didn't give it away. In said war, is there a guarantee that Konoha would've lost? No. In fact, judging by personnel (and admittance of inferioty by Ei during WA), there is a High chance Konoha would've won. Said victory could've looted them Mabui (instant transmission technique), Darui (black lighting, storm release), SoSP tools and more.
    So all in all, the war wouldn't have been that bad for Konoha. They'd most likely have fared better than Kumo from it. Even if we put aside the potential for victory, we can only say that war would've been a toss up so we can't rule it as a failure on the part of Hiruzen as a leader. So your standard for failure is actually something which can only be judged as a neutral result, no failure.

    And what of the best case scenario?
    Konoha could've won the war and gained valuable loot, as I've already mentioned. But since we put down war as a toss up, then I won't use this one. Instead, there is the fact that as an aggressor, Kumo could've been made to pay damages.

    So the best outcome would've been loot for Konoha as well as diplomatic cards for the future, while the worst, as you've presented, would've been war which could've gone either way. Now if you look at what happened, Konoha ended up even worse than the worst result you yourself can think of. This is definitely a loss. Konoha was invaded and lost a member. The score is 2-0 here as well.

    3. Final Evaluation: Sacrifices vs Rewards
    So Konoha sacrificed an shinobi in order to prevent a neutral scenario. That's a loss
    Then Konoha was invaded (the order is reversed, pardon me) w/o recompense. That's also a loss

    So the sacrifices had no gains (war is neutral, remember, so preventing that is not a gain). 2-0 yet again against Hiruzen.

    Add that all up and Hiruzen suffered a 6-0 loss.
    1-0 for invasion
    2-0 for loss of a member
    3-0 for a sacrifice w/o reward
    4-0 for international crime w/o recompense
    5-0 for ending up worse off than they were threatened with
    6-0 for being closer to worst case scenario than best case scenario

    Now compare that to Mei:
    1-0 for internally changing village stereotypes
    2-0 for restoring political/diplomatic ties
    3-0 for not needing to make village sacrifices
    4-0 for getting gains w/o sacrifices
    5-0 for ending up better than before she came to power
    6-0 for not losing anything compared to when she came to power
    Who wins 6-0 in her favor

    Its a clean sweep. As for how he could've done better, that's not for us to judge, as diplomatic skill comes down to each. Its like saying Asuma wouldn't have failed had he fought and died to Zabuza because we can't come up with a way for him to win. We can only judge end results
     
  15. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    She noted his strength, an objective remark, a mark of her analytical skill.

    She did not give up the fight, she continued attacking with the others. That a mark of her resilience more than anything else. That she would continue doing all she can even when the situation seems hopeless
     
  16. Avalon

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    I'm not trying to turn anything against you. You originally argued that "Hiruzen couldn't sort out a minor issue without causing bloodshed" as indicated with the quote below:

    I then replied with this:

    And then you disagreed, which leads to my next question: "What would you have done in Hiruzen's shoes in order to solve this issue without bloodshed?"

    If you cannot answer that, then there is no choice but to conclude that Hiruzen handled that situation in the most effective way possible.
     
  17. Kyu ~ █▬█ █ ▀█▀ ~

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    Best kage at what? Giving head? Cause I think the "Legendary Sucker" has her beat.
     
  18. Silnaem Oh great, another epiphany

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    Oh,in that case I think you misunderstood me

    1. By minor I was speaking relatively
    Compared to the Uchiha debacle (Minato), Shukaku issue (Rasa) and Diplomacy issues (Mei), an attempted kidnap is minor.

    2. Wrong standard
    However, simply because I might've fared worse than Hiruzen doesn't make him better.

    Remember, we are judging him here relative to fellow kage and his situation. So even if I would fail even worse, that doesn't make Hiruzen better.

    Its clear tour standard (if I cannot think of a way . . .) is flawed when you remember that we are judging end results. Your standard is like saying that we cannot judge Kakuzu failed against Hashirama simply because I cannot think of a way for him to win. The fact of the matter is that the end result was a failure and the matter of that fact is that that's how we judge skill: by what is achieved in comparison to what could've been achieved.
     
  19. PureWIN Mr. Prince

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    But Madara was too strong. They literally got slaughtered once Madara got bored and stopped fucking around. No amount of gutsy Shounen asspull power up was going to save them.

    If Hiruzen is allowed to commit genocide on the Uchiha clan because he didn't have Naruto's Talk no Jutsu, then I think Mei is allowed to admit defeat because she didn't have a Plot Shield.

    :oldshrug
     
  20. Zef Dark Magician

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    Madara being too strong is irrelevant. As Kage your duty is to give your life for your village if necessary.


    She should have died trying rather then give up. She showed mental weakness at being a leader
     
  21. MShadows Deathbat

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    Is she the best Kage?




    Yes, yes she is! :tupac
     
  22. Zef Dark Magician

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    She don't even look like that no more
     
  23. MShadows Deathbat

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    So people are not allowed to age? Hey, at least she has the courage to allow herself to age unlike Tsunade who would've looked like an old hag by 50 already if not for her constant transformation jutsu.

    :oldshrug
     
  24. Batzzaro29 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe what US did after pearl harbour?
     
  25. Avalon

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    If the Leaf village was capable of performing a "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" on the Cloud village, then there would have been no need for the original treaty to begin with.
     
  26. Suekay Well-Known Member

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    I like Mei, but her credibility was shot to pieces when she allowed Chojuro to become her successor...
     
  27. Fleet Admiral Akainu A.K.A. Frank Grimes

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    Reread the manga
     
  28. Action Hero Old man Dante.

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  29. Atlantic Storm Booze Intermission Supporting Staff

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    And what, Mei is immortal? :nonon
     
  30. Arles Celes The Psychologist

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    I'm surprised she never got married... :hm

    Were guys so afraid of a really strong woman...or did she look repulsive to them due to being overly THIRSTY? :catthinks
     
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