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Jiraiya vs Itachi and Kisame Analysis

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Turrin, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    That entire list is top tier.

    Not as top tier as "healthy Itachi" mind you.
     
  2. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Yes.


    They don't seem to be making eye contact at all.

    Kabuto is shorter than Itachi with his head titled down, and hood up. His serpant eyes (slit pupils) don't appear to be pointing in any direction. On the other hand, Jiraiya's human eyes and pupils appear to be looking directly at the Uchiha.

    Well, yeah that's becuse he wasn't making eye contact.

    And this is conformation of such. Well done for contradicting your own point, dipshit.
     
  3. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Kabuto's knoweledge is pretty vastly beyond Jiraiya's by the way if it wasn't evident by the fact he knew the abilties of every edo he summoned.

    On of top having Orochimaru's notes.
     
  4. narut0ninjafan Well-Known Member

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    Jman bringing the salt from battledome posters as usual :peperave
     
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  5. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    Yet we have him looking at Itachi.


    Two panels side by side of them looking at each other and you don't consider it eye contact?

    I guess Jiraiya didn't make eye contact either.

    LOL

    You have no perspective on either panels. Jiraiya could have been looking at Kisame?

    I expected that you would make up some bullshit excuse "he didn't have the perfect angle" nonsense because obviously you would never be able to accept that Itachi with MS activated stared at his opponent and they didn't immediately die.

    Shocker.



    Staring doesn't preclude eye contact.

    What were you saying about "non native speakers" rofl
     
  6. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the implication of him not liking to be stared at is almost certainly in regards to him avoiding eye contact.

    This is pretty thematically obvious in naruto.

    That's kishi telling you that Kabuto is avoiding eye contact.

    It goes hand in hand with the angle of his head and slit eyes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  7. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    I have no idea why you keep mentioning slit eyes. YES HE HAS THE EYES OF A SNAKE. That doesn't mean you can't look into them.



    Kabuto admits they were staring at him and now he hides away his face. So Itachi did look at him and HE DIDN'T DIE.

    And as far as themes, the point of Kabuto hiding was to "reveal" his sage mode and build tension, not to hide from genjutsu specifically. If a cloak and some bad posture would protect from genjutsu he wouldn't have needed to seal his eyes. (I know he also sealed his eyes for white rage)
     
  8. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    I mean Kabuto might be looking at Itachi's feet based off the panels you showed me?

    So well done?

    But it's made pretty thematically obvious that he's trying to look away I;E Sasuke "he's trying to avoid out genjutsu", you obviously have to be a dense bastard not to understand that. And of course, the angle at which his drawn is drawn just supports the notion that no eye contact was made that day.
     
  9. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Basically ShinAkuma is trying to say that because Kabuto didn't literally shout out "I'm avoiding eye contact with you" He must have been looking into Itachi's eyes.

    Even though Kabuto's dialogue and the panels Shin presented contradict this amusing opinion.
     
  10. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    Ok seriously, you think that a dude with his eyes looking up is staring at Itachi's feet?

    Really?



    Jiraiya has paint under his eyes. Gotta be at least as useful as slit eyes.

    GOTTA BE

    Yes he's trying to look away after he already apparently made eye contact.

    Look you guys (the Itachitard brigade) are the ones who made the argument that you lose "WITH A SINGLE GLANCE *GURGLE*" against Itachi, not me. We have evidence that Itachi and Kabuto were hot glancing all over each other. Kabuto didn't lose.

    Maybe the single glance angle isn't legit, at least when in an actual fight.
     
  11. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    :kobeha
     
  12. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    I think more sane Jiraya fans actually exist but I would rather retire Android from this list, he is just as biased if not more than most of Jiraya cult members.
     
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  13. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Not for nothing but I've literally seen a few Itachi fans outright claim to be biased themselves. They dont even attempt to hide it.
     
  14. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    Concession accepted.
     
  15. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    Bonly isn't biased.
     
  16. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    Never mentioned any names on purpose. But you know, for some reason I think when a person literally (and yes I mean literally) claims to be biased (or literally - and yes I mean literally - claim to be a fanboy), then its best to take their word as truth.

    I also find it funny that you can claim someone to be baised, yet I cant? Even when Ive been literally told the opposite by them?

    :saitamapathy
     
  17. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    :kobeha

    > Claims Kabuto and Itachi were hot staring at each other

    > Show's me panels of Kabuto doing exactly the opposite



    > All panels show Kabuto's shrouded head facing downwards despite being a bit shorter than Itachi



    When Itachi casts genjutsu from his feet, you can then have my concession

    :kobeha
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  18. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    But we can still see his eyes tho.

    Hey man, I'm fine that any sort of obstruction even if you can fully see their eyes will stop Itachi.

    Jiraiya has paint on his eyes wooooooooooo

    HE MIGHT BE LOOKING AT HIS FEET

    MAYBE

    LMAO

    Kabuto would need be doing a handstand there in order to look at Itachi's feet with his eyes looking that far up.

    Is non-native vision a thing cause you obviously don't know what you're looking at.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  19. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Yes, We, the audience, reading a manga that is clearly designed to be viewed from a 3rd person perspective can see his eyes.

    This doesn't tell us that :

    1) Itachi can see his eyes
    2) That Kabuto is looking at Itachi's eyes, which is the prerequisite for tsukuyomi anyway

    The fact his head is titled donwards for the entire conversation is evidence that he wasn't making eye contact et all.

    Your point ? Other than that you were high while making this post ?

    > Kabuto's eyes looking that "far up"
    > Middle panel shows Kabuto's head titled down



    You really are the gift that keeps on giving.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  20. Ziggy Stardust Well-Known Member

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    Oh by the way, this is Asuma and Kurenai looking at Itachi's feet, avoiding his gaze :



    Is the panel and the clear intention behind it contradicted because reader can see their eyes ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  21. Bonly Keyblade Master

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    It's weird how he's so obsessed with me and my opinion of Itachi.
     
  22. Turrin 玄武

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    SM Jiraiya can fight blind we saw that when he fought Pain in the smokescreen. So he can counter Genjutsu just like Kabuto can. Itachi went for Tsukuyomi against Kabuto because he needed to control Kabuto to end Edo Tensei.

    Ma/Pa weren’t actively sensing during the ambush attack as they thought the enemy was dead; that’s all that was. And I think it makes perfect sense for them to warn Jiraiya that a Dojutsu user is suddenly gathering incredibly powerful chakra to his eyes. This is of course assuming Jiraiya can’t use sensing himself which requires us to ignore DB4 entirely.

    Hashirama himself would have no other basis to avoid eye contact then sensing Itachi building up chakra to his Dojutsu; as he’s never faced Itachi before and even Madara never had a Genjutsu like Tskuyomi.

    Bottom line and why I don’t want to go much further with the discussion though is because it’s a dumb argument to me as Jiraiya factually has a way to fight avoiding eye contact, so him loosing to Genjutsu would be simply due to ignorance / underestimation and says nothing about how the characters actually stack up. It’s like Itachi sees Tsunade charge a huge amount of chakra into her fist with sharingan and still decides to try and block the punch with his arm instead of Susanoo because he underestimates how strong her strike is going to be and dies instantly. It’s a plee from ignorance that Itachi shouldn’t need to win if he is that much stronger then the character. And ultimately you and I both know that shit comes down to plot anyway, as if Kishi wants Itachi to slap someone he’ll have them look him in the eyes and if he doesn’t he won’t. So why even bother discussing that plot kai stuff?
     
  23. SakuraLover16 Hard to be loved when people only see your faults

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    See guys this is why we can't have nice things
     
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  24. Lawrence777 Well-Known Member

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    I like Turrin took time to lay out his thoughts and impressions on this he doesn't deserve the lip tbh.

    That being said I disagree and think itachi wins so giving you heads up on at least 1 general rebuttal.
     
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  25. Turrin 玄武

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    Thank you and I welcome other opinions. Please bare in mind in your rebuttal I do think Healthy Itachi beats Jiraiya unless we assume Frog Call scales to Haguki (which I don’t agree with, but can understand those who might); giving Jiraiya an outside chance to win.
     
  26. Sapherosth One post man

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    Jiraiya using smoke bombs and attacking inside it DOES NOT mean that he can fight blind. Where do you even get that conclusion from?

    Jiraiya HIMSELF stated that even when you're a sensor, defending effectively without looking at an attack is impossible. You can't even scale Kabuto's SM feats to Jiraiya's either when Kabuto is utilising a different type of SM AND he's been enhanced by other abilities such as Snake heat sensing & Karin's ability.


    I don't recall Ma or Pa warning Jiraiya or Naruto before Pain finishes using any of his abilities. If anything, their reactions are slower than that of Jiraiya's in battle. Not to mention Itachi never uses Tsukuyomi outright but uses it after feinting so sensing it is out of the question.

    Unless you want to say that Itachi cannot feint them.

    Why would he have no basis to avoid it? He's been fighting Uchiha's since he was a little boy. If he can't fight against Uchiha genjutsu he would've been dead long ago. It doesn't matter what Genjutsu Itachi has if Hashirama just avoids it. The chances of Itachi using Tsukuyomi before Hashirama recognises that Itachi is an Uchiha is slim to none.

    This is basically you disregarding a BIG portion of Itachi's power simply because you think that Jiraiya will use his limited information to know exactly what and how to counter Itachi's techniques perfectly, which is completely dishonest.

    There's no shame in getting one-shot by genjutsu at all. I don't see anybody crying when Minato counters shinobi and finishes them within 1 move. That's just simply his style. Itachi's style also relies on finishing opponents fast, which was how he's done so vs Deidara, Orochimaru and Kakashi.

    Anyways, Jiraiya HIMSELF already stated that it's impossible to fight perfectly without looking, so your argument is flawed from the start.

    Comparing Tsunade's obvious punch to Itachi's stealthy/subtle genjutsu is just you being dishonest. Dodging a punch is much easier than avoiding genjutsu.
     
  27. ShinAkuma Fanboy Destroyer

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    Oh really?

    So why doesn't this also apply to Jiraiya?

    I mean when we see Jiraiya and Itachi's eyes it's all "JIRAIYA STARED INTO ITACHI'S EYES *SNORTLE*" But if it's Kabouto it's all of a sudden " Theme and perspective"

    Rofl

    Nice try Zigmund, but no fucking dice.

    Zigmund, Ziggy, Zig......if we can see Kabuto's eyes Itachi can. See the artist is giving us a representation of what the characters are interacting with. When they want us to see eyes, eyes are viewable. When they want us to see his eyes are obscured (like when his extra lens comes into play) they show us that.

    The art isn't intended to mislead us, it's supposed to show us what is.


    His eyes are tilted up, towards Itachi, then they show us Itachi looking at Kabuto.

    Itachi isn't far, maybe 10-15 feet.

    If you are looking at a persons face that is 10 feet away with your head tilted down what do you have to do? You guessed it champ, look up.

    My point is that your argument is just as nonsensical as paint by the eyes.

    Oh and WOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Kabuto is literally looking as far up as possible. I mean I supposed his eyes could roll backwards into his head, but this is enough.

    Is this even for real?





    Zigmundo....Itachi was 80-100 feet away from Asuma and Kurenai.



    He is like 15 feet max from Kabuto.



    If your eyes are in the same position will you view something different 15 feet away vs 100 feet away?

    Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question.

    Nice talk homie.
     
  28. Sapherosth One post man

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    So is Gai looking at Itachi's eyes too? Despite Gai saying he's looking at the feet? Look at the chapter where Gai saved Kakashi from Kisame.

    Compare that to Kabuto and tell me which one is more likely to be trying to avoid eye contact?
     
  29. Turrin 玄武

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    1. Jiraiya blocks LoS and then effectively fights blind; Yet where am I getting it from that he can fight blind... huh

    And Jiraiya is saying you can’t fight as effectively blind as you could with sight. Which is a given, doesn’t mean he can’t do it effectively enough. And we’ve seen Naruto do it in his SM against Pain too, so it’s not something exclusive to Kabuto. And as far as Kabuto having extra abilities like Snake Heat detection and possibly Karin sensing. I’ll see that and raise you Ma biological tongue detection, Jiraiya motion barrier, and the sensing of two other Sages (Ma/Pa).

    2. We saw Pa warn Jiraiya and react to Human realm attempting to Ambush Jiraiya from behind


    3. So your saying Hashirama avoids eye contact because Itachi is an Uchiha. Then why wouldn’t Jiriaya he also has Decades of experience maybe not fighting against Uchiha but with them during wars. As I said it is a plea from ignorance to believe Jiraiya despite himself &/or Elder Toads sensing at the very least that Itachi is an Uber powerful Uchiha that Jiriaya will still underestimate Itachi genjutsu enough to look him in the eyes mid battle.

    4. Itachi did not avoid all of KCM Narutos punches and kicks be blocked them physically. We see him physically guard other attacks through the series too. Even times when he used a weapon to guard, Put Tsunade in that position and he’d be dead. For that matter put Torune in a position where Itachi blocks him physically and he’d be dead. And we can go on like this; if you make any character ignorant enough to underestimate the other character they can loose to plenty of things they should otherwise be able to counter.
     
  30. Prince Idonojie Well-Known Member

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    Good point. All true Sages can fight blind; it comes with the whole being one with nature stuff.
     
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