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Katakuri Vs Kizaru (No DF)

hbcaptain

Well-Known Member
Katakuri, Cracker, Jack, etc, all of these stand arround the same level overall. You may argue that Kata' would beat them individually but it's nothing short than a high diff/several hours fight.
Seeing how the 9 scabbards, whose average level at least close to Katakuri's level, were mistreated by Kaido, then it's pretty much obvious that Kizaru without restrictions stands on a whole level. You'd actually need 9/10 Kata' to stand a chance at beating him and even then, I'd still favor the admiral.
Now, Kizaru's DF is quite OP. His striking speed (and thus DC) is massively amped thanks to the light attribute, he also greatly gains in terms of mobility and versatility (light beams, light sword, light speed travels, logia form to deal with non-Haki damage, etc). Regardless, it's difficult to quantify how much he loses if we restrict these abilities but I'd still favor him. He showed a monstreous CoA in MF (completly neutralized a very powerful Gura attack from WB with a Haki barrier alongside Akainu and Aokiji) and his physical might is top notch.
 

Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
I can counter with his high end showings.
Please do?
Your scaling argument for Kizaru is much more relevant than debating about anti-feats since Kizaru also has anti feats of his own that are even worse than Katakuri's due to barely having any high-end feats in comparison imo.
Anti feats? Since when do we argue based on inconsistencies?
Sanji and Luffy's feats aren't inconsistent with one another regardless....or am I misunderstanding you? I've never encountered the term.
And what are their base stats exactly? They're high no doubt, they are Admirals after all but it's hard to quantify them.
Able to react to Whitebeard, hold down his Bisento and blocking a kick from Marco and not being damaged at all. The only way Kizaru wouldn't be able to tag Katakuri is he were physically inferior to base Luffy.
Aokiji can flash freeze a Tsunami in seconds. His attack speed is very fast. He doesn't really require to be faster than G4 or Snakeman in movement speed. Aokiji and Akainu can also easily defend themselves with their Devil Fruits and Barrier Haki, intercepting Mochi donuts and Katakuri's awakening with their own. Not to mention Aokiji can probably counter Katakuri's awakening by simply freezing everything arond them. The problem here is that Kizaru's movement speeds even with his Light-Light fruit were being reacted to by the Pre-TS rookies.
So this is the point where we just don't agree: the Color Trio needing fruit powers to be able to land hits on Katakuri. I'm okay with that.

Out of curiosity: Do you think Marco or King can land hits on Kats?
I'm not sure I understand this question?
*KIzaru not Katakuri. No need to answer though.
 
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Sloan

Supa Stacka
Please do?
He has feats of hitting G2, Boundman and Snakeman Luffy.

Here's two of them:

Spoiler:


Anti feats? Since when do we argue based on inconsistencies?
Sanji and Luffy's feats aren't inconsistent with one another regardless....or am I misunderstanding you? I've never encountered the term.
Anti-feats are when a character has a feat that is worse than another feat they have essentially.
Able to react to Whitebeard, hold down his Bisento and blocking a kick from Marco and not being damaged at all.
WB's CoO was non existent in the war and he might've been using his Devil Fruit. I'm not disputing Kizaru's physical strength, I agree his physical strength is high up there, not sure I would say it's as high as Boundman's or Katakuri's but I could see that. Anyways damaging Katakuri isn't a problem in this match-up if his hits land.
The only way Kizaru wouldn't be able to tag Katakuri is he were physically inferior to base Luffy.
He needs to be faster than G2 Luffy, Boundman Luffy and Snakeman Luffy in base to decisively beat Katakuri imo.
So this is the point where we just don't agree: the Color Trio needing fruit powers to be able to land hits on Katakuri. I'm okay with that.

Out of curiosity: Do you think Marco or King can land hits on Kats?
Maybe they don't need it land hits, we don't know 100% for sure but based on Kizaru's showings I'm just having a hard time seeing him beat Katakuri with FS without his Devil Fruit.

Marco can apparently turn into a gigantic Phoenix, so with his AoE it would be easier to hit Katakuri. Plus Marco blocked a Magma Punch from Akainu and could materialize Kizaru and Aokiji and send them flying at terminol velocity. His Haki is comparable to theirs I'd say based on that. So with Marco's gigantic AoE and a possible awakening he could definitely hit Katakuri, plus he's just portrayed higher than Katakuri imo. Even sopposing that in the initial stages of the fight Marco couldn't land any hits on Katakuri, when people who are more or less on par with one another fight it takes days to end a fight(Jinbei vs Ace or Aokiji vs Akainu for reference). Marco is portrayed to have more stamina and endurance than Katakuri, and Katakuri couldn't effectively use his Future Sight in a couple hours of fighting Luffy, so Marco would eventually beat him after an extended period of his CoO starting to fail on him. Katakuri's Haki will start to run out soon enough and he'll lose.

I'm not sure if Admirals are portrayed to be stronger than Yc1+ opponents without the majority of their power restricted. Ya Kaidou is just as strong without his, or maybe even stronger but he's an exception for now. King has no feats so Idk what to say, but he could probably hit Katakuri eventually I'd say.
 

Sherlōck

High Functioning Sociopath
Kizaru still wins mid difficulty.

Monster Recruit
Better Endurance (scaled from Admirals)
Better Stamina (scaled from Admirals)
Better Strength (matching DK blow to blow)
Advanced CoA 2.0 (can use)
Possible Rokushiki user (even VA's can use this)
Proficient Swordsman capable of fighting DK

Imagine thinking YFM's has any chance against top tiers even without their DF in 2021. :lul
 

Chaos Hokage

Hokage of the Distant Future
I think Kizaru would win since he knows how to use Advanced Haki/Ryou. Plus, he could be a master of Rokushiki .
 

Kylo Ren

Pirate King
Kizaru still wins mid difficulty.

Monster Recruit
Better Endurance (scaled from Admirals)
Better Stamina (scaled from Admirals)
Better Strength (matching DK blow to blow)
Advanced CoA 2.0 (can use)
Possible Rokushiki user (even VA's can use this)
Proficient Swordsman capable of fighting DK

Imagine thinking YFM's has any chance against top tiers even without their DF in 2021. :lul
Kizaru with fruit is mid diff against Katakuri and now its restricted its still mid? Bruh.

Now you try to hype Kizaru base stat from dehyping his fruit? Light fruit is so OP and yet you kind of suggesting that the light fruit are somewhat irrelevant?

Kizaru without fruit v Kizaru with fruit are equal? :bookerskully
 

Sherlōck

High Functioning Sociopath
Kizaru with fruit is mid diff against Katakuri and now its restricted its still mid? Bruh.

Now you try to hype Kizaru base stat from dehyping his fruit? Light fruit is so OP and yet you kind of suggesting that the light fruit are somewhat irrelevant?

Kizaru without fruit v Kizaru with fruit are equal? :bookerskully

For me Mid Diff fight is if a character can force his opponent to use 31-60% of strength or if in this case after beating Katakuri, Kizaru has 40-70% HP left.

If DF Kizaru only need to exert 30% of strength and Non DF Kizau has to exert 60% then it still is mid diff to me.
 

Kylo Ren

Pirate King
For me Mid Diff fight is if a character can force his opponent to use 31-60% of strength or if in this case after beating Katakuri, Kizaru has 40-70% HP left.

If DF Kizaru only need to exert 30% of strength and Non DF Kizau has to exert 60% then it still is mid diff to me.
I dont think that way lol thats complicated. Thats why im confuse you're using toguro from yuyu hakusho.

I already assume the characters we use in obd will 100% using all their might against the said opponent.
 

Sherlōck

High Functioning Sociopath
I dont think that way lol thats complicated. Thats why im confuse you're using toguro from yuyu hakusho.

I already assume the characters we use in obd will 100% using all their might against the said opponent.
You do use 100% from the start.

It's what you have left in the tank after the fight is what I am talking about.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
I'm 99% certain all admirals have FS and CoA 3.0

Kizaru still wins, he's probably stronger physically (was matching Rayleigh), is far more experienced, has (see above) better CoA and at least same level of CoO. Far better endurance scaling off Aokiji/Akainu.
Katakuri might be faster due to his DF/awakening but that isn't enough. His main power is FS, assuming Kizaru has same level of CoO, Kizaru will always win
 
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Kinjin

Rito Warrior
Global Moderator
We have no feats from the admirals without their DF's.
We do.

Kizaru pinning down WB's bisento with his foot:



Sakazuki was also able to stop WB's bisento with his foot and hands in his pockets.

Even if Kizaru uses a light blade there's no reason to assume that he couldn't have matched Rayleigh with a regular sword as well. It's his own strength.
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
Kizaru without fruit v Kizaru with fruit are equal? :bookerskully
They would be damn close. I don't why you'd think differnetly.
We do.

Kizaru pinning down WB's bisento with his foot:



Sakazuki was also able to stop WB's bisento with his foot and hands in his pockets.

Even if Kizaru uses a light blade there's no reason to assume that he couldn't have matched Rayleigh with a regular sword as well. It's his own strength.
Exactly. They are strong without their devil fruits even if Whitebeard slacking off for the most part.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
Kizaru pinning down WB's bisento with his foot:
tbh I've always interpreted that scene as Kizaru using WB's bizento as a "step", it was a super fast clash, it didn't look like WB trying to lift the bizento and Kizaru stopping him, more like WB cutting through Kizaru and Kizaru imediately turning back and shooting him while putting his foot on the bizento for balance
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
That is true Strob, but it's odd to believe adding a light fruit, magma fruit or ice fruit will massively affect the Admirals' physical strength.
 

Kinjin

Rito Warrior
Global Moderator
tbh I've always interpreted that scene as Kizaru using WB's bizento as a "step", it was a super fast clash, it didn't look like WB trying to lift the bizento and Kizaru stopping him, more like WB cutting through Kizaru and Kizaru imediately turning back and shooting him while putting his foot on the bizento for balance
Well, in the same chapter Kizaru breaks the key to Ace's handcuffs while WB did nothing about it which I take as that he didn't take his foot off WB's bisento.

I think it's portrayed more clear in the anime.
 

Canute87

Nuke Imminent
We do.

Kizaru pinning down WB's bisento with his foot:



Sakazuki was also able to stop WB's bisento with his foot and hands in his pockets.

Even if Kizaru uses a light blade there's no reason to assume that he couldn't have matched Rayleigh with a regular sword as well. It's his own strength.

It doesn't help that getting shot in the chest by a powerful lazer attack from a 100% accuracy sharpshooter admiral after suffering your second heart attack may affect your ability to lift said bisento in that particular moment. even worse when you consider said moment was due to kizaru getting bisento'd in the head and nothing happening. Logia DF's are something else.

Akainu used his DF.
 
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Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
What do you mean close? You cant even give a reason why.
Kizaru w/o his df would give his df self high difficulty. All his devil fruit does is give him a larger more versatile arsenal. He’s still himself though and it would be hard to find someone who could give him higher difficulty than himself.
 

Kylo Ren

Pirate King
Kizaru w/o his df would give his df self high difficulty. All his devil fruit does is give him a larger more versatile arsenal. He’s still himself though and it would be hard to find someone who could give him higher difficulty than himself.
This is hard cause we can only speculate but if Kizaru grow up without his fruit no doubt he will become Garp but if thw scenario is they both have the same base Kizaru stat while the other one have the light fruit then he will mid diff at best imo
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
This is hard cause we can only speculate but if Kizaru grow up without his fruit no doubt he will become Garp but if thw scenario is they both have the same base Kizaru stat while the other one have the light fruit then he will mid diff at best imo
The light fruit's capabilities will not give him that much of an advantage. And I don't think Oda would ever make the difference that substantial. If you took away someone's fruit who is clearly reliant on it in offense and defense like Cracker, then it would be mid diff.
 

Kylo Ren

Pirate King
The light fruit's capabilities will not give him that much of an advantage. And I don't think Oda would ever make the difference that substantial. If you took away someone's fruit who is clearly reliant on it in offense and defense like Cracker, then it would be mid diff.
Kizaru is reliant to the fruit and the light fruit will give him so much speed advantage and fire power.
 

Shunsuiju

Well-Known Member
Kizaru is reliant to the fruit and the light fruit will give him so much speed advantage and fire power.
Fantastical idea. Unless he's way slower than Rayleigh, the other Admirals etc in base then the speed the light fruit gives him is superficial. Fire power yes, that's why they would not be exactly even with and without the devil fruit. Mid diff is laughable really.
 

Kylo Ren

Pirate King
Fantastical idea. Unless he's way slower than Rayleigh, the other Admirals etc in base then the speed the light fruit gives him is superficial. Fire power yes, that's why they would not be exactly even with and without the devil fruit. Mid diff is laughable really.
Im willing to give it a high.

Im actually seeing their fight mirroring that Z v Kizaru fight in the movie where Z only have time to react and Kizaru dictating the pace of the fight and if he wanted to he can really outperform the dfless kizaru just like with Z.

He can appear and disappear anywhere and whenever he wanted to.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
Kizaru w/o his df would give his df self high difficulty. All his devil fruit does is give him a larger more versatile arsenal. He’s still himself though and it would be hard to find someone who could give him higher difficulty than himself.
I agree. At this level the DF is just a help to increase the arsenal. People on this level have haki as their main weapon.
 

MO

nap time
katakuri wins both rounds with some difficulty. Don't see how kizaru would be able to tag him without his fruit. It would take a little while tho for kata to put him down unless he lands really good hits with his trident.
 
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