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Kingdom

Discussion in 'Akihabara Library' started by Reznor, Jul 21, 2014.

Who do you want to lead during the first unification war?

  1. Moubu

    20.2%
  2. Kanki

    25.8%
  3. Ousen

    19.1%
  4. Tou

    34.8%
  1. Morglay .

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    Farmland Saga had Thorgil thus it is the superior arc. FACT.
     
  2. DragonSlayerOrnstein The Brave Knight of Anor Londo

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    Unfortunately Sei's response is a generic shonen-y, overly idealistic that contradicts reality. Ryo isn't really contradicting himself. It's more like containing the problem rather than outright stopping it. His argument is people's greed takes priority over waging war, which is the argument for modern day capitalism and, despite its issues, is the system that's worked the best.

    I really did hate Sei's response, especially since historical Sei was not like that at all. If there's one aspect of mainstream manga I hate, it's how left leaning it is in much of its politics. Kingdom really isn't that bad in that regard, and compared to a series like Naruto which has politics of its own and has a somewhat similar premise to Kingdom, this is far more realistic, logical, and respectable, but I felt Ryo vs. Sei ended HEAVILY in Sei's favor. Damn shame, too.
     
  3. Badalight JOJO

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    Honestly, I didn't hate the first part of Sei's reply. Greed will eventually lead to war anyway, and Sei's goal is to get rid of war. But yeah, after that it went into typical shounen-fare bullshit. Especially with his emphasis on LIGHT.

    I was personally more compelled by Ryofui's reponse.
     
  4. DragonSlayerOrnstein The Brave Knight of Anor Londo

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    No doubt Ryo's response was more compelling imo, mainly because it's different from the shonen standard. As I said, mainstream manga in general is very leftist in their views, and it's a very common theme that money and power are inherently bad, so seeing a character say the exact opposite, that money can help the situation rather than hurt it, is refreshing. At the same time, Sei's reply that ending war through violence, rather than TnJ like you see in Naruto, is refreshing as well. But as you said, the "light" bullshit felt shonen-y as fuck and Ryo's being seemingly TnJ's sucked pretty hard, but it came down to who won the physical war which made the "TnJ" irrelevant anyway. However, if you reread it, it's more that he worded it shitty. The premise behind it really isn't hat bad, that legacy and carrying on the goals of those before you are perfectly fine imo.

    I just don't want this series to go through a second half syndrome. Not sure if you know or read or whatever but the end of the debate, Sei's victory is considered the halfway point of the series Hara announced. He plans the series to go for about 80 volumes, but he also said that he might consider stretching it as far as to 100 volumes. We'll see where the series goes from here.
     
  5. Badalight JOJO

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    Jeez. Yeah I felt we were still quite early on in the series.

    Yeah, there is a clear innate hypocrisy in Sei's words (and Sei knows it too). He has to stop war through war itself. In the end, Qin will be the only state to reap the benefits of a war-less society while the other 6 nations suffer.

    Anyway, I was genuinely surprised at that scene. Kingdom, while entertaining, had been kind of infuriating me on the narrative side of things because this entire time I was raising the exact same questions as Ryofui. It's nice to see that the author finally addressed those or perhaps he was always self-aware from the beginning. I'm not sure.
     
  6. Akatora Active Member

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    Hougen had a more extreme moment where his face was stuck in a wall, meanwhile enemies were shooting arrows at him, but even thouogh he couldn't see them, he was able to deflect the arrows with his weapon.(THis could be extra stuff though and not in a main chapter)
     
  7. Pliskin Well-Known Member

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    That was an extra. the canonicity of these is kinda funny, on one hand I think Shin giving the body back to Renka and the mountain dude taming the gorilla man is cannon I think. The Houken scene hopefully not.
     
  8. Badalight JOJO

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    The first is definitely canon, because the mountain men actually use him during the Sai battle.

    The second one is obviously not canon. They built a fucking giant slingshot. If they wanted Houken in the thick of things, he would've gone up the normal way.
     
  9. Badalight JOJO

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    I caught up by the way. This manga got way better. The first arc and first major battle at the (Dankan?) plains I was pretty "eh" on. The manga only improved with each battle after that, before climaxing (in my opinion) at the battle of Sai. It hasn't gotten back up to that level yet, but that was a pretty big climax.

    Still have a lot of my same complaints. Flawed, but very entertaining (like Dynasty Warrior games :LOS)
     
  10. Sherlōck High Functioning Sociopath

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    Except the light bullshit the argument between Sei & Ryo was spot on.

    You also have people cleaving people in half & the upper body send high up in the air. Don't read it with mindset that its going to follow 100% of everything regarding history & human strength & capabilities.

    Um no. It has been emphasized many times that Houken wouldn't win if it wasn't for the arrow. And Hyou already did half the work. Regardless yes mangaka could have dial down Shin's performance a notch.

    This I completely agree with. I was discussing about it with my friend yesterday too. Ouhon should have at least had the rank of general before he beat Earl Shi. It would have been much more believable. It totally looked out of place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  11. Pliskin Well-Known Member

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    As long as the story does not straight up introduce powerlevels (not likely, but I remember Houken feeling Ki made me slightly anxious at the time) I can ignore most bs as long as it serves the narrative. Which it mostly does fabulously. I feel Ohoun beating the Earl is the only example where it really doesn't, so I agree there.

    I also think featwise Kyokai>all but the story makes little use of her for plot reasons.
     
  12. convict He who Greets with Fire Advisor

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    Honestly, that badass is my favorite character of the series. Such a damn thug. And we don't really know exactly how strong he actually was. I am sure we will see him again some day.
     
  13. Badalight JOJO

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    Oh god. The chi stuff was terrible. When Houken hit Shin, Kyoukai had some weird thought bubble that said something to the affect of "He used a super secret move that involved sending all of his chi into his opponent and exploding it!".

    :huh
     
  14. Robin Overdrive

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    Chi (has various names depending on the country) training is very real in Eastern martial arts, even as widespread and familiar as karate, and can do real damage at a distance or without any physical force behind it. I was in a training program to do something similar to what Houken did. I don't do it anymore though.
     
  15. Bakatohunter56 away fighting dragons

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    :bookerskully
     
  16. Robin Overdrive

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    I didn't mean the physical feats :lbj
     
  17. Badalight JOJO

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    He hits shin with his staff, sending his chi energy into shin, and the chi energy explodes inside of shin, and shin's insides explodes and he passes out and almost dies.

    It was one of the dumbest moments in the manga imo.

    Like, Houken is a strong dude. He could've just hit Shin and knocked him out without the chi explanation bs.
     
  18. Robin Overdrive

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    now I remember... okay even I agree that's way overboard :skully

    but you know he even draws men vastly larger than Chinese men were back in the day, maybe twice the size. so there are bound to be exaggerations in technique and such. can you explain Kyokai's technique at all though? I've never heard of a technique like that even in my weird spiritual pursuits. Her basic level strength is imo overblown as well. Unless she takes steroids, a woman is half as strong as a guy, physically. I haven't seen her struggle due to that difference or overcome it in some ingenuous way.

    I guess I just overlook the ridiculous parts and enjoy the story :umafood
     
  19. Badalight JOJO

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    I can handle it being un-realistic dynasty warriors style. I just don't like the mythical elements.

    Kyoukai is kind of like that too, but with her I just consider her good at sword play and ignore the whole god worshiping aspect.
     
  20. Donquixote Doflamingo Master Puppeteer

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  21. Badalight JOJO

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    Yes, but it's historical fiction. The setting doesn't lend itself to being over the top like most shounen.

    Anyway, like I said I eventually stopped caring about the ridiculous physical feats, but the narrator constantly interrupts the manga with historical facts about ballistas and poisons and characters and what not. It paints a picture of legitimacy. So when I see completely bullshit mythical elements introduced, it really takes me out of the experience. The rest I just learned to ignore/accept, but I draw the line at Houken.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  22. Sherlōck High Functioning Sociopath

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    Exactly,its a fiction. If you want an accurate description you should read real history instead.
     
  23. Badalight JOJO

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    I still draw the line at Houken's chi attacks. It doesn't even fit the context of Kingdom itself. I already said I give a pass to the other stuff, but the universe still needs to be consistent. It's no different than if you were watching a realistic crime drama and half-way through the series there was a single character who could shoot lasers from his eyes. It just doesn't fit.

    Also, the history that the mangaka is pulling from is so scarce, and not to mention biased. It's really just reading a giant time table of events. Things like the battle of Sai are summarized into a single sentence. I'd wager kingdom is about 99% fiction. Heki, one of the most important or at least long-running characters in the series, only exists because of a single sentence in historical documents; a sentence which the mangaka misread.

    Actually, the fact that he's chosen to portray Sei as not a tyrannical overlord is the exact opposite of every historical depiction of him. Not that I mind this, though he does come off as faaaar too idealistic and shouneny.

    Real history spoilers
    Spoiler:
    History is written by the winners, so it makes sense for the post Qin dynasty to propagate the fact that Sei was incredibly evil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  24. Robin Overdrive

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    I see where you're coming from, though. I had the same reaction to Twin Peaks and dropped it for that reason. Also Prince of Tennis. But Kingdom doesn't have a lot of over the top things like that, they are relatively rare compared to other manga. I can forgive one character having almost magical powers for the sake of the plot. Just hope that Shin doesn't suddenly start using op chi attacks :skully
     
  25. Badalight JOJO

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    If it bothered me that much, I wouldn't have kept reading. I enjoyed Kingdom immensely, but that still sticks out as a sore spot for me.

    I wouldn't marathon a near 500 chapter series in less than a week if I didn't like it.
     
  26. afrosheen6565 Member

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    The idea of chi is not totally irrelevant to the Chinese ---in fact it is much more prevalent there than here. Sure, nobody is banging out Kamehameha's but that someone's chi or 'supernatural' ability would be written about or documented somewhere is not outside of the question. Don't view it from a historical context based on today's values/understanding. Think about how the people then might have viewed it and you get to see how the idea of "Shin, the man who killed 1000 enemies" or something ridiculous like that can become reality. Makes it a lot easier to swallow the absurd amount of damage a single individual is able to inflict in this series.

    Still love it. 10/10 manga. Never Stop.
     
  27. Pliskin Well-Known Member

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    New chap out. Kanki is such a crafty mf, ALL generals are holding their breath for his appearance.
     
  28. Sherlōck High Functioning Sociopath

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    InB4 he appears right behind Keisha. :gokuskully
     
  29. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    Kanki is going to play all four strategists.


    Shit :S
     
  30. -Ziltoid- writer of words

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    The shitstorm it would create if we just see him lazing around drinking a cup of tea next chapter :lmao
     

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