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Looking at Naruto from another perspective... [spoilers]

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

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    When Naruto is being discussed online it is most commonly discussed from the reader's perspective. Speculation based on that is fruitless. To allow for a productive (heh) discussion the subject has to be viewed from the perspective of the writer, not the reader.

    The question is not "What would Sasuke do in situation X?", but rather "What would Kishimoto have Sasuke do in situation X".

    As an example i will take the first major fight from after the timeskip. Deidara vs Gaara. At the end of one of the chapters, Deidara clearly looks outmatched. He just got caught by Gaara's Sand Prison technique. This spawned lots of possible predictions about the next chapter, many of which involving Deidara getting pwned.

    Once these theories where proven wrong with the defeat of Gaara, people started speculating (not necessary the same "people" as in the previous predictions) that Gaara would go Shukaku on Deidara soon because he was knocked unconscious ("Gaara is just fooling them", etc. etc.). This was also wrong.

    Now this leads up to the Itachi vs team Kakashi and Kisame vs team Gai battles. People thought that Kisame actually WAS killed there (strange cliffhanger ending after the Asakujaku taijutsu tech). Of course, it makes sense if you don't really think about it. But finally it was revealed that Kisame was not killed, and neither was Itachi.

    Surprising, eh?

    After this the Sasori vs Sakura & Chiyo battle starts. Sasori was killed. Deidara also at this time fought Naruto and Kakashi and lost. He did not die, however.

    All of this could've been seen coming if you think about it. WHY would Deidara lose to Gaara? What purpose would it serve to introduce a new villain only to have him LOSE in the first fight he's involved with against a non-main character?

    Having him getting killed by Shukaku right after Gaara's defeat was slightly more believable from a storyline perspective, but still... And it was obvious that Itachi wasn't going to get killed by Kakashi and Naruto in the following fight. He has too strong connections to Sasuke to be killed by them. It would actually be kindof logical to have Kisame killed by Gai, but the fight was all too short and not "epic" enough for a final fight so you could see he wasn't going to get killed.

    Sasori's demise was getting more and more obvious the longer the fight went on. From the beginning i thought he was going to get out of it alive, but the more powerful moves he showed, the less likely he was to get out of it alive.

    Deidara was obviously not going to be defeated without causing atleast some environmental destruction. He wasn't even fully armed ;) during his fight.

    To conclude this:

    The probability of someone winning a fight cannot be determined by comparing the strength of the fighters. You have to see patterns in the writing style of the writer. You have to try to think like he does.

    Kishimoto has showed himself unwilling to kill any main character (damn you Chouji). Therefore it was obvious that Kankurou would not die from the poison and Sakura wouldn't die from the sword wound by Sasori.

    Now...

    Why did i post this in the first place, you ask?

    Well, someone had a theory about Shino's dad being the Akatsuki leader. This is sortof a response to that one. I think you can figure out the connection yourself.
     
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  2. Gunners

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    yes why did you?:p

    All in all good post, i get what you mean with diedera being introduced why would he loose to garra as a new villain.

    That fight pained me coz i knew garra had no hope of winning.
     
  3. Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

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    Well my main point was that Shino's dad being the Akatsuki leader has about as much chance of happening as Gaara defeating Deidara in that fight :p
     
  4. Grrblt

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    At least Gaara had a chance of beating Deidei from a relation of strength POV. Shino's dad doesn't have any chance of being the AL.
     
  5. Gunners

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    Point taken there

    How did people come up with that theory.

    what scares me though, is the people who were saying kakashi had magenko sharingan from the poor scan, shocking thing is it actually happened.
     
  6. slumpy

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    i agree. reps for you
     
  7. Sunuvmann

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    Yeah it does make sense, you can also compare chapter wise as well. Deidara v. Kakashi and Naruto couldnt have him die so fast. Especially after the 10 ch. Sasori boss battle. It would be quite dumb to kill off 2 perfectly good uber villains in the same stretch.
     
  8. AEmer

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    It's true...an important clue when it comes to litterary analysis is to examine which choices are actually available to the author in the long run...

    However, even if he seemingly takes one general path with something, it's important to recognize that when and how he implements the path is left in his hands...so while Deidara couldn't possibly lose to Gaara(and end up dead), the shape of Deidara's non-loss could take almost any one shape you could think of - including sassori stepping in to help...
    The impact of the non-loss (the kidnapping of Gaara) could not be foreseen for certain, either. So those are important things to consider...perhaps we know who's gonna win, if we think about it...but that doesn't matter, cause there's so much intrigue that we're entertained all the same...
     
  9. Chiru

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    This can also be applied to theories such as Tobi = Obito. It would help allow Kishimoto to explain more about the sharingan, Kakashi's past, events after Gaiden, etc. without showing flashbacks. It would also be a way to end Kakashi's long time of constant self blaming.

    I like this thread.
     
  10. ab56v2

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    Damn, the creator of this thread must be Einstein or something. I NEVER looked at it that way!
     
  11. Kahlua2606

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    I think this is a good point, my only criticism would be that you might be making it seem more complex than it really is. Of course all the Akatsuki aren't going to die all at once, of course Sakura was not going to die and of course Gaara would have been brought back to life. If anyone were foolish enough to argue with you on this, you need only remind them that if all the characters die, then the series will be over a lot faster. I think the only people who would argue with your point would be die hard 'fanboys' who wouldn't admit that Gaara could ever lose, even to an Akatsuki, or something along those lines.
     
  12. ChickenPotPie

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    I agree, except for the Deidara part on the Naruto/Kakashi confrontation. As you said, the more powerful techniques shown by Sasori the more likely he wasn't coming out of there alive. Well, Deidara at that point had already used his most powerful bomb on Gaara. Then further, he lost his second arm...making him as useless as Orochimaru. Then there was the suicide tech...

    His revival seemed half assed, now that I think about it.

    But I don't think all character deaths/events can be predicted by importance only. Dosu and Zaku had a bit of development on their side...and they were killed so randomly.
     
  13. Satetsu

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    I always thought that every character serves their purpose. If the character no longer has a story (character development) or anymore techniques they would die in battle. I actually thought Sasori was going to live because the fact he didn't use the last two scroll and that Kakashi's father fought his...I thought there would be another flashback. And I thought that Deidara was going to die because I really didn't think that he had any new attacks to show. Anymore explosives are basically the same except the model apperance and the explosive force. And I thought not every character has to have a flashback and story to tell. Look at Kisame and Shino.

    Nice essay.
     
  14. Mizura

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    It's what I call plot-no-jutsu. =\
     
  15. FFLN

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    Really?:huh I thought that was how everyone looked at it, but they just decided to theorize and debate about stuff just for fun.:p
     
  16. AEmer

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    IRT Kahlua:

    Yes, in a lot of situations it makes most sense to look at things from a sufficiently simplistic point of view, while examining what the author has to work with, that is a given...

    All the same, the difference between sufficiently simplistic and too simplistic can be very hard to tell... either way, combining logic with the perspective of the author and the roads he could possibly take, and then trying to second guess his motives is probably the most reliable way of determining the outcome of a fight... Or the direction the manga is taking.

    I started another thread specifcally on account of this method recently:
    here

    Although, it is a bit unclear as to the fact that I'm trying to second guess the motives of Kishimoto in my first post...
     
  17. Alia_Atreides

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    Well, thinking about the writer┬┤s point of view, Sasuke will never kill Itachi. Why? Because we know Kishimoto is not in favor of revenge as a way of life, and he also avoids at all cost that his main characters kill people, unless it involves the security of important people for the character and him giving his life. So, I think the only way Sasuke would kill Itachi is if he lost his life too.
    But than again, thinking like Kishimoto, Itachi is the new Gaara. He will be converted.
     
  18. FFLN

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    If that's true then... wouldn't he become the new Hokage too?:blink
     
  19. ddrussianinja

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    Sasuke may not get his revenge, but Itachi may still be killed. Perhaps Naruto will kill Itachi and Sasuke will forever hold a grudge against Naruto for taking away his purpose in life and become truly evil.
     
  20. Alia_Atreides

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    You may be right, but I still think Kishimoto is not making Naruto kill anyone yet... If theres a "good" main character that can kill, its only Kakashi. If Itachi proves to be beyond redemption, I think it will be Kakashi who is going to take care of him. And with the White Chakra Blade!
     
  21. yummysexyhinata

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    of course it is obvious deidara, itachi and kisame wouldn't die in rescue gaara arc..but it is still fun to watch even when you know the result,,dont think too much about the end or we wont enjoy the manga

    but i believe kisame wont be killed...GO KISAMEEEEEHHHHH
     
  22. hakke

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    You make a good point there at the end evenif you didnt mean to. I dont agree with the topic because it all falls to someone mentioning "plot no jutsu" or "shounen laws" which is frankly irritaring. Its ok to speculate whats going to happen next chapters... but to actually plot theories for the whole arc, its just a waste of time...

    ...like going to a movie of which you made theories based on the preview, you go in and and the end you come out feeling superior because you predicted the end or who was gonna die... and all you did was cheat yourself of enjoying the movie.
     
  23. Mizura

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    Eh? What are you talking about? It's quite enjoyable to see predictions come true or be proven false. :huh
     
  24. FFLN

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    Yeah, especially if the theories or speculations were pretty cool twists or the like.:amuse I don't like it when I'm watching something and I KNOW that they're just going to do something dumb. I can't really think of any examples of that right off the top of my head, but I do remember feeling that way about various movies and shows.

    You are right about something being enjoyable if you just go into it with no expectations and allow it to show itself to you or play through. With a series like Naruto though, it's just more fun for us to create wild theories or discussions on various aspects of the story or where the plot will lead. Other series just don't have the same sort of effect on me.
     
  25. Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

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    I had a lot of free time yesterday. My english writing skills need practice. Hence the length of the post :p
     
  26. Mizura

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    Also, by speculating a lot, it makes you pay more notice of all the little details that you might have missed. :amuse You'd go: "Oh so That's what that other scene really meant way back in chapter ###, it all makes sense now!" Whereas if you don't debate with others you might not have noticed those little things in the first place. I enjoy both picking up on the little things and being able to get a grander view of things to come. Right now for example, after the slow Sasori arc I would have found the series slow and boring by now. But then I realized what the "big picture" was (as I explained in my "major plotlines" thread), and that makes me look forward to the series more than ever. :laugh
     
  27. FFLN

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    I totally agree. It's because we're so scrutinizing of the manga, and there's ACTUALLY stuff in there foreshadowing future story events, that most of these details could be seen and pointed out. If I was just reading Naruto and discussed it with no one, I wouldn't have the same amount of enjoyment with it as I do now. I never would've noticed that Kakashi showed what looked like the Mangekyou Sharingan in his second fight against Itachi, I wouldn't have noticed that the Yondaime stuck his seal on the foot of that Stone Ninja, and I would not have noticed that Gaara can STILL control sand.:amazed Oh, and I wouldn't have noticed the joke when Naruto started to call Chouji fat.:sweat The truth of the matter is that it's just fun speculating with people who'll actually have a discussion with you about Naruto and the specifics of it without ignoring your thoughts and labelling you as a crazy Narutard.:p
     
  28. Heldensheld

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    It's called Kishimoto's master plot no jutsu.
     
  29. Dorfmeister

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    There are more battles where you can predict the outcome by logic. From the beginning it was pretty obvious that all the members of Team 7 were to be trained by the Sannin. When Sasuke was going to Orichimaru it was clear that he had no intentions of returning. We finally got the Sasuke-Naruto battle we all wanted with Sasuke as winner.

    After all Sasuke is the better skilled ninja and moreover, he has the best bloodline in the Naruto-universe. But this was a battle of exhaustion and it is clearly stated that Naruto has a great stamina, combined with the Kyuubi chakra, and he ate a soldier pill. And yet he loses when both opponents strike with their final move.

    You have to know that Zabuza stated that Kyuubi Naruto level 1 had more chakra than Kakashi, yet Kyuubi Naruto level 2 loses a battle in chakra stamina of Sasuke, not someone known as a monster in chakra stamina in opposite of Naruto. So we may conclude that a genin with course seal level 2 has way more chakra than a high-level jounin? A frightening thought.
     
  30. Danchou

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    Yeah, but i also think that you are underestimating Kishimoto's ingenuity. Afterwards it's easy to say it makes sense. But you are right somewhere. On the other hand it is also not fun to be correct with predictions all the time.
     
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