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MPs ignore May’s pleas and defeat her Brexit deal by 149 votes

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by Dragon D. Luffy, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    British lawmakers on Wednesday rejected leaving the European Union without a deal in any scenario, paving the way for a vote to delay Brexit to seek a way out of the country’s worst political crisis in generations.

    Lawmakers voted by 321 to 278 in favor of a motion that ruled out a potentially disorderly ‘no-deal’ Brexit under any circumstances.

    It went further than the government’s own planned motion, which noted that parliament did not want to leave without a deal on March 29, the leaving date set down in law, but stressed that the default legal position was to leave without a deal unless one was ratified by parliament.

    While the approved motion has no legal force and ultimately may not prevent a no-deal exit after a possible delay, it carries considerable political force, especially as it demonstrated a substantial rebellion by members of May’s own party.

    After two-and-a-half years of negotiations and two failed attempts to pass a Brexit deal proposed by May, the vote against a no-deal exit still leaves undecided how, when and on what terms Britain will leave the club it joined in 1973.

    After lawmakers crushed her deal for a second time on Tuesday, May said it was still the best option for leaving in an orderly fashion.

    The pound spiked to the day’s high and was headed for its biggest daily gain in 2019.

    As the United Kingdom’s three-year Brexit crisis spins toward its finale, diplomats and investors see four main options: a delay, May’s deal passing at the last minute, an accidental no-deal exit or another referendum.

    DELAY UNTIL WHEN?

    If Britain does seek a delay, it will require the agreement of all the bloc’s other 27 members.

    The EU would prefer only a short extension, with the deadline of EU-wide parliamentary elections due May 24-26, although it is unclear that this would be long enough to solve the impasse in London.

    EU Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said the bloc would need to know why Britain wanted to extend talks and that it was up to London to find a way out of the deadlock. The EU said there could be no more negotiations on the divorce terms.

    As Brexit uncertainty spills into financial markets across the world, investment banks such as Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan are offering different probabilities on the outcomes.

    “We continue to see a 55 percent chance that a close variant of the prime minister’s Brexit deal is eventually ratified, after a three-month extension of Article 50,” Goldman said. It gave a reversal of Brexit a 35 percent probability and a no-deal Brexit 10 percent.

    Britons voted by 52-48 percent in 2016 to leave the bloc, a decision that has split the main political parties and exposed deep rifts in British society.

    May’s deal covers such things as citizens’ rights, the status of the Irish border and Britain’s divorce bill from the EU. It takes Britain out of the EU single market and customs union, common fisheries and farm policies and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. It also offers a status-quo transition period in which to negotiate trade arrangements.

    Under a no-deal exit, there would be no transition period to soften the disruption to trade and regulations. Britain would quit the EU’s 500 million-strong single market and customs union and fall back on World Trade Organisation rules, which could mean tariffs on many imports and exports.

     
  2. MrGayNight Well-Known Member

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    It's going to be a no-deal brexit, let's not kid ourselves.
     
  3. GRIMMM

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    Source



    Gotta beg those EU countries for that UK sovereignty.

    :carlton
     
  4. Ruthless Tsuchikage Well-Known Member

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    Because who else would do it? Boris Johnson? May might find herself being the most qualified person to lead the Torries and considering her party consists of liars, children and dullards that view of herself might even be something more then self delusion.

    If I were her I'd have gleefully pushed for a new referendum. She owes the Brexiteers nothing after they repeatedly tried to obstruct her, burden her or stab a knife in her back. To the voters that want Brexit she can point to the cabal of dullards at her side and point out they'd already have Brexit if it wasn't for the Brexiteers.
     
  5. Nemesis The Sith Lord Moderator

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    May is just the most stubborn person in Parliament. If she thought 2+2=5 you could prove beyond any doubt for the rest of the universe that 2+2=4 and she'd still not budge. She's been like this ever since she was in the home office and that's why it's in a terrible state it is in.
     
  6. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Reuters pointed out that foreigners normally don't pay attention to the British parliament, viewing it as mostly a rubber-stamp institution that's bound to pass any bill introduced by the government. (That's what you get from having both First-Past-the-Post and parliamentarism).

    The Brexit votes have therefore been the first time many non-Britons have actually observed the arcane traditions of the legislature.

    Like, it's 2019 and you don't have electronic voting?!

    It's not considered bad form to interrupt the prime minister when she's speaking?!

    The physical layout of the chamber presumes that there will only ever be two parties?!
     
  7. Nemesis The Sith Lord Moderator

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    Physical layout actually is based on St Stephen's Chapel. It was actually only opened in 1950 as the previous was destroyed in 1941 and was based on the old commons layout which hasn't really changed since the 1600s. Which was long before any kind of political party ever existed.

    Also the rest of the world is not wrong to basically think of it as rubber stamping government bills. For most prime ministers since Thatcher they average between 4-9 defeats during their entire life as PM. May has lost now 41 times in about 2.5 years she's been PM. Those are insane numbers, especially when you realise that her first defeat was October 2017 and we're only in March 2019. If we go by this alone she's the worst post war Prime Minister by far.

    Closest to her was Callaghan in the 70s who lost 34 times and took a little longer to do so.

    Any other situation May would have been ousted. But these are not normal times
     
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  8. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Just saying, the layout with two facing sets of benches seems to encourage (or assume) binary antagonism.

    In most other parliaments the delegates sit in a semicircle around the podium, so that everybody's attention is on whoever is up there speaking at the moment and not on who's sitting behind that person.

    In countries with proportional election systems there is generally no physical marking of where the "government" seats end and the "opposition" seats begin, because when governments rest on ad hoc coalitions allegiance always in a state of flux. And we want to encourage bipartisanship (multipartisanship).
     
  9. James Bond I don't give a fuck

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    So may is pushing a third vote for her absolute trash deal :noah
     
  10. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Guardian explainer of today's vote:

     
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  11. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    We're through two of the four amendments to be voted on before we move to the vote on the actual Extension Bill (amended or not).
     
  12. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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  13. Vandal Savage The Magician Supporting Staff

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    I'm glad that the EU is indicating they aren't interested in negotiating anymore and that the U.K. needs to figure out what the hell they are going to do on their own. This shit is a circus and Theresa May still having hope that her deal will win is a clown's move.
     
  14. GRIMMM

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    MPs vote to reject second referendum by majority of 249
    MPs have crushed the second referendum amendment, by 334 votes to 85 - a majority of 249.

    May narrowly defeats bid to let MPs take control of parliamentary timetable by majority of two
    The Benn amendment has been defeated by 314 votes to 312 – a majority of two.
     
  15. dergeist Well-Known Member

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    They vote for an extension or not, it doesn't matter. The EU won't offer one past the elections date. If it does they want the UK to fight the elections and offer a second referendum. And the British Parliament isn't wanting to fight the European elections and doesn't want a second referendum.

    It's a stupid game they're playing, which I foresee leading to the rise of the Eurosceptics in the UK and the EU. The UK has around 70 or more constituencies that voted heavily for Brexit and there MPs are trying to undermine them. They will be going for hardliners in the near future.
     
  16. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Yup.

    AFAIK the EU's position is that the Deal, backstop and all, is final. Take it or leave it.

    So the EU would only approve an Extension if it seems likely that the UK would accept the Deal (or cancel Brexit altogether) in the extra time. There wouldn't be any negotiation on a "new" deal during an extension, so if that's what the Brits are hoping to get out of an extension it's better to not grant it. Just rip the band-aid already.
     
  17. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The fourth amendment was withdrawn, so now they're voting on the main issue (seek Extension or not).
     
  18. Mr. Black Leg The Ordeal of Love

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    This is literally history's biggest self-inflicted, not provoked, burn.

    All the other systems that collapsed in on themselves were either for external forces or because the system itself had flaws that could not cope going on.

    Britons CREATED a problem in their minds, thinking the EU was bad for them even though it mostly kept peace through economic entanglement and not only that their economy was not fucking crashing. This was literally as unprovoked as it gets. They created their fanfiction inside their heads that EU steals money from them, while forgetting that their entire trade system heavily involves the EU and created the ridiculous, I can't even express in words how fucking idiotic it is this notion, the notion that they were getting their INDEPENDENCE. Fuck me. Fuck me a thousand times. Independence ? Have you ever read your own history textbooks? Is it that you've been raping other countries for such a long time that when you stop raping them you feel that you've been punished? Come on now, the idea of independence is laughable.

    I really hope the fuckers who voted for this shit go out of a job and become unable to support themselves.
     
  19. GRIMMM

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    Another pointless extension vote made which will achieve nothing, just like the last one.
     
  20. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    They voted to seek extension.

    Now the ball is with the EU on whether to grant such an extension. I'll have to look up when the 27 EU leaders will convene to make that decision.

    After first extending every possible sympathy for our British members, I have to say I think I'm in favor of Sweden voting "extension denied."

    With parliament having just rejected a second referendum I don't see how there could be any progress in the next two weeks or two months that hasn't already been explored in the past two years.

    It's better that we can rip the band-aid and put our mental capacities towards how to organize No Deal, rather than kid ourselves there's going to be a deal. For us on the continent too, Brexit has become a distraction that's paralyzing everything else.
     
  21. Fruits Basket Fan Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is this: the UK is very much acting like the US of Europe. Known for its xenophobia and distrust of unions with foreign nations (it constantly regards itself as separate from Europe when it is part of Europe) despite it being born with preventing another World War and ensuring good trade deals with one another and respecting human rights (they can have certai opt outs like not being involved with schnengen nor having same currency).....now, I cannot even see the UK as ever becoming one with the EU ever again.

    Now I see why Charles DeGaulle vetoed the UK from even joining the then European Community :lmao!
     
  22. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    Better to deny the extention and force them to revoke article 50
     
  23. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Brexit day is meant to be 29 March 2019. But now British MPs have rejected no deal and the deal on the table, and voted for an extension to the timetable, it seems certain the talks will go into extra time.

    How does that work?
    Extending Brexit is a job for EU leaders, say numerous diplomatic sources. The EU’s 27 heads of state and government would have to decide unanimously at an EU summit on Thursday 21 March. But first the UK has to ask. The EU cannot consider the question until the British government makes a formal request to extend article 50.

    Would the EU say yes?
    Probably. While any single country has the right to block a Brexit extension, most diplomats think the EU would agree, although this cannot be taken for granted.

    The wildcard is that EU leaders have never discussed the issue and often take a stricter line than officials. In December, for example, EU leaders decided it would be pointless granting the UK further legal assurances on the Irish backstop, concluding that another legal paper was unlikely to sway MPs in favour of a Brexit treaty. It turned out they were right. But blocking an extension could be seen as tantamount to forcing the UK to leave the EU without a deal. The EU does not want to go down in history with the blame for Brexit.

    And the British request matters: the UK must be able to show “a credible justification for a possible extension and its duration”, a spokesman for the European council president, Donald Tusk, has said.

    What is a ‘credible justification’?
    That’s not entirely clear. The European parliament’s Brexit co-ordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, has said he opposes “any extension of article 50, even just for 24 hours, if it is not based on a clear majority from the House of Commons in favour of something”. Some EU sources say “credible justification” means time to hold a general election or a referendum. Others have no fixed view, and member states don’t want to be boxed in with strict criteria.

    How long?
    A short “technical” extension of two to three months to allow parliament to pass Brexit legislation would have been easy to agree if MPs had voted for the Brexit withdrawal agreement.

    Now the deal has gone down in flames, the EU faces a dilemma. A short extension is seen as heightening the chances of the UK tumbling out of the EU just before European elections. But a long extension means the EU could be bogged down in Brexit for months or years, while numerous foreign and economic policy problems are jostling for attention.

    Many see a short extension as pointless. “The problem is that after the massive defeat of [Tuesday] it is hard to believe that we can fix the deal if she gets three more sentences on the backstop,” a senior source said.

    Various options have been mooted, from three to 21 months, but there is no fixed view.

    What do EU players think?
    Germany does not want to rush the UK out of the door and thinks the Brexit debate would benefit from breathing space. France also wants to keep options open, despite tough talk in public from Emmanuel Macron. Some traditional allies, such as the Netherlands, have voiced impatience. Some in the EU institutions are worried about Brexit “polluting” the EU’s agenda for months, with no upside.

    Would there be strings attached?
    Brexiters have raised the prospect of Brussels attaching tough conditions to any Brexit extension, but the EU would be bound by its own laws. The UK would remain an EU member state with the rights and obligations that entails, including annual payments to the EU budget, upholding judgments from the European court of justice and taking part in European elections.

    So Nigel Farage could remain an MEP?
    EU officials say the UK must be represented in the European parliament if it is a member state. Officials are incredulous that the British government would be ready to countenance “a blatant treaty violation of the rights of their citizens”, in the words of one source.

    British citizens and EU citizens living in the UK could go to the European court to challenge the absence of British MEPs or laws from a parliament not representing them.

    So the former Ukip leader could run again in European elections – along with the UK’s 72 other MEPs, who largely get far less attention.

    Some British politicians think there is a quick fix: for example, a treaty change that would allow the government to appoint MEPs for a limited period. But the last EU treaty amendment – a eurozone crisis amendment in 2011 – took two and a half years to be ratified by the EU’s 28 parliaments. Senior officials have concluded this option is not realistic.

    What happens now?
    Now MPs have voted for more time, triggering a request from the government, diplomatic activity will intensify. Tusk will meet Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, and Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, over the coming days, in what will be crucial encounters in influencing the outcome.

    But this high-wire decision is unlikely to be pre-cooked. The final judgment will be made by EU leaders next Thursday – a mere eight days before the Brexit sands run out.

     
  24. James Bond I don't give a fuck

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    Guess we aren't getting another vote then. :BrokenPepe
     
  25. stream Do something, Naruto!

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    Seriously, I think they'd leave without a deal then. They're way too proud to just come back like that. The only way they can possibly consider coming back is if they do another referendum.

    By the way, here's a leaked video of the British Parliament examining their options:
    Spoiler:


     
  26. Fruits Basket Fan Well-Known Member

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    Brits are too prideful to admit they made a mistake and ask for forgiveness :zaru!
     
  27. GRIMMM

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    English*.
     
  28. Saishin Hajimemashite

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    Enough with the bullshits,just leave on March 29 and let the time tells if what they are doing is good
     
  29. Saishin Hajimemashite

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    Good,repeating a voting untill you get your favorite result is against democracy,in that way an election would be a farce,once the people decide it is done and the Brits decided to leave so the people's will must be respected even if that majority won slightly nevertheless it is the majority
     
  30. James Bond I don't give a fuck

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    Okay I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
     
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