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MSharingan and other genjutsus can be rendered null by the Sannins

Discussion in 'Naruto Theories' started by hesd, Nov 12, 2005.

  1. hesd Anomic.

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    MAIN POINTS

    At this point in time in the manga, the information given were rather scarce to prove this stuff..however, we can use induction..and facts, not just subjective speculations..here are my points to wrap up my argument:

    1. MS is a genjutsu.

    2. However special it is, the MS still operates under a law common to all genjutsus: "A genjutsu is something where, by applying it to an enemys' senses, you can control the chakra that flows through their nerve system."

    3. When caught in a genjutsu, "you should try to stop momentarily your own chakra flow." if you were able to disrupt your own chakra flow, the genjutsu will break.

    4. "What if it doesn't work?", Naruto asked. Then somebody must inject chakra to the victim to disrupt the latter's chakra flow. The common denominator of the two techniques to negate a genjutsu is similar: chakra disruption. This means the first method (stopping C.flow by oneself) is contingent on the victim's ability to manipulate/control his/her chakra effectively. Should this fail, meaning, if a victim does not possess the ability of perfect chakra contol, then the only solution is technique #2 (somebody to inject chakra).

    5. MS is instantaneous. "<1 second is equals to three days" thingy. However, if we consider the ability of the brain to recognize in milliseconds, ie, that one is caught in the Tsukiyomi, then stopping one's chakra flow, which takes only again milliseconds (a speculation if one is an expert in chakra control), can get you out of the predicament.

    6. Tsunade is clever enough not to fall into emotional torture. If she knows that a genjutsu user is her enemy, then she has already considered the possibility of that, which lowers the genjutsu stealth. In addition, she has already overcome her hemophobia, a concrete manifestation that she has done away with her past, or at least, has command of her present.

    :smile-big

    THE ORIGINAL POST

    I've inferred this from the manga episode where Naruto was recalling Jiraya teaching him how to evade genjutsus.This is a non-spoiler, I believe, so I'll say it anyway: Jiraya told Naruto to temporarily disrupt his own chakra circulation when under a genjutsu in order to escape from "intellectual jutsus", so to speak (or more appropriately, so Jiraya spoke). We all know that Jiraiya can control his chakra given the fact that he can execute Rasengan, not to add his being a Legendary Sannin. Tsunade,too, as a medical ninja, can control her chakra with pinpoint accuracy. I don't know about Orochimaru..might as well narrow the title: MSharingan and other genjutsus can be rendered null by Tsunade and Jiraiya. Anyway, if this thread is considered in relation to Tsunade vs Genjutsu users, especially Itachi, or the battle between Tsunade+Jiraiya vs Itachi+Kisame, (add the whatnots if you like) I say Tsunade and Jiraiya, as a team or individually, can defeat genjutsus.

    What do you think? :smile-big
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2005
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  2. Jonas Banned

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    I say that's a nice idea. Repz.
     
  3. Viciousness on a Forums Break

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    Reps for your Idea, but I have to disagree. Perhaps Tsunade can escape if the most precise chakra control in the world can get you out of Tsukiyomi somehow, but Jiraiya probably has no chance. The disrupting chakra flow technique seemed like a basic technique since Jiraiya said the only alternative was being touched from the outside and its not like no ones ever broken from a Genjutsu before on their own. But Kakashi's explanation of the Mangekyou to Chiyoo made it sound impossible to be free from Tsukiyomi until Itachi's done with you, and I'm sure he would have learned that technique as well.
     
  4. Cytrus Hopeless

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    Oh my! The Sannin can disable any taijutsu by blocking or evading it!

    And ninjutsu! Using any of the elemental shields completely stops it!


    And without the sarcasm, any sort of attack can be blocked. If the caster's skill at genjutsu is better than the defender's skill at negating it is, the attack will still succeed. If there was a 100% counter against any ninja skill, that skill would simply vanish from the ninja world.

    We can assume that medical ninjas can resist genjutsu better than others, but the rest of the sannin (and ninja world in general) doesn't have any special advantages against it, nor is any defense ever foolproof.
     
  5. hesd Anomic.

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    errr...

    yes, the most precise chakra control can obviate the effects of M.sharingan. This is not a basic technique (auto-disruption of one's own chakra) cuz you have to have flawless control of your chakra...as for the alternative (disruption of c.flow induced by somebody else), Tsunade can do away with it since she can, as i've said, command her chakra perfectly...momentary disruption need not come from anybody else.

    With regard to Kakashi's explanation to Chiyo, i don't know..but maybe he's trying to make M.sharingan sound as if it's the most omnipotent ninjutsu with the knowledge that he will eventually acquire it as well, hence impressing upon those who hear that he'll eventually be, ya know, the strongest..haha.juz kidding.:cool

    But Kakashi's ready to face Itachi at any time..seems he's discovered M.sharingan's weakness/es..or probably asked Tsunade her analysis of M.sharingan afer Kakashi was healed by the Kunoichi. ya know,a little chit-chat might help.:amuse
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2005
  6. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    The Sannins may beable to defeat regular genjutsus but not Tsukiyomi. It happens in an instant so there is not time to disrupt the chakra. Also wether or not they can defeat regular genjutsus depends on the level of the caster as well.
     
  7. hesd Anomic.

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    --->I sensed a bit of a Biological defenz...there are indeed absolute counter against any ninja skill but it does not automatically follow that a skill which has lost its omnipotence will vanish..There are a lot of ninjutsus in the ninja world that can be easily countered but those still are performed.

    --->This is a digression people..but side comments make conversations more holistic and interesting...you can realign the argument if you like.
    If that's the case, then M.sharingan is the ultimate offensive jutsu? err...why did Itachi flee from Jiraiya when they met (together with Naruto,Sasuke, Kisame, and the devious lady;forgot the anime episode)? If MS is that powerful and almost kills in an instant, then Itachi might as well made an eye contact with Jiraiya...shooting two birds with just one arrow..akatsuki's got Naruto plus got a Sannin-jinchu guardian killed.
    Also, i would like to point out the comment made by Kisame as to why Itachi fled and not fought Jiraiya..Kisame said to Itachi that "he could have..." _____-> defeated Jiraiya (filled the blank intuitively). But basing from the sequence of events, Kisame didn't actually know how powerful Jiraiya is. This particular claim was inferred from Kisame and Itachi's conversation (after their escape) where Kisame suggested that they can take on Jiraiya that moment (hotel/motel/inn whatever) and Itachi's reply was that, with maximum luck, they could kill the perverted hermit, but they'll be goners as well. Clearly, this shows that Itachi's escape comes with his knowing that Jiraiya can counter his doujutsu.


    --->i took that into account,ie, how Itachi can compress time in his command (1 second=3 days thingy?) But it only takes the mind to process information in nanoseconds, especially the process of recognition (not recall). The point is that Tsunade and Jiraiya (pardon me, fans of those whom i did not mention) can instantly recognize that they're under genjutsu, even if it is M.sharingan, in as short as nanoseconds.Hence, they can escape unscathed from Itachi's maliciously-enhanced eyes . . Even if one says that <1second=3 days, if you take the proportion of three days and nano-seconds, it's already a significant time for an effective escape, assuming that "less than <" means more than nanoseconds!.
     
  8. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    The Sannins may beable to realize that they are in a genjutsu but they will not have the time to react. It happens in an instant, as Kakashi says dispelling it isn't even a factor.
     
  9. Blue Well-Known Member Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    We can't infer that just because one can disrupt a normal genjutsu in that manner, Tsukiyomi could be similarily disrupted.

    EDIT: See above.

    Of course, we can't infer that the Sannin simply couldn't cover their eyes, megasummon, and knock Itachi to Tijuana, either. But you'll never see anybody pointing that out.
     
  10. hesd Anomic.

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    I guess he's addressing that (dispelling isn't even a factor) to Chiyo and Sakura..to those who doesn't have perfect chakra control unlike Tsunade.

    i guess it's also a matter of intelligence..outwitting the sannins..the Sannins recognizing first that they're inside the Tsukiyomi..but if Jiraiya and Tsunade, clever enough to recognize that they're caught by Itachi, negate the MS, Itachi's finished..with his chakra greatly diminished after the execution of MS.. Speculation:disrupting one's flow of chakra can be done in nanoseconds, much like any other reflexes..well, that is if one's adept at controling one's chakra,like the two sannins, or if you beg to disagree, at least Tsunade.


    okay, I guess we can't actually settle this lock stock and barrel. Let's just hope that our battle fantasies will materialize eventually either in the manga or in the anime. haha.but i'm still open for more views regarding this.
     
  11. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    You do realize a nanosecond is one billionth of a second right? I don't think humans in the Narutoverse can react that fast.
     
  12. hesd Anomic.

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    the inference holds water..Jiraiya told Naruto that he needs to know how to negate genjutsus..Mull over it.Jiraiya said: (paraphrased) "you need to be able to know how to dispel genjutsus coz some of your enemies are genjutsu users." And Jiraiya knows that Uchiha is a member of Akatsuki..Naruto's enemy..:p


    --->haha! that is just a speculation based from how naruto characters move..think it over.:smile-big in reality, the fastest human reaction time is 100milliseconds...if we, ordinary humans, can react more than that, then our neurons should do away with the synaptic gap..this is the part that slows down our reaction time for our benefit! haha. imagine someone running as fast as Lee! torn ligaments, you'll have i say..but Narutoverse, to use your term, is different..but even if i change the "nanosecond" in the original post to "milliseconds" that won't make a significant difference in giving allowance for Tsunade and/or Jiraiya to react to Tsukiyomi..well, that is if they realize that they've been caught..as i have posted above..LOOK UP.:tem it's also a matter of intelligence..outwitting the Sannins..
     
  13. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    Don't agree in a couple of things.


    Itachi's powerful genjutsus would work on Tsunade.

    All he needs to do is bring out her fear, like her love ones that she lost to the war.

    That alone would destgroy her.

    MS, don't even try to say that this jutsu can be dispelled, as its the ultimate genjutsu.

    Only another MS jutsu might dispell tsukuyomi

    Jiraiya might take one a few genjutsu, but i don't tihink he outclaases Itachi in genjutsu.

    Anyone that is hit by Tsukuyomi is in deep shit.

    There is nothing you can do, and it all happens in an instant.
     
  14. Hef Night Work

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    hesd, please don't double post.
    I beg to differ. :oh Tsunade got over that before she became Hokage, those images wouldn't hurt her anymore. And when you get over something like that (in anime/manga), it just makes you a stronger person.

    So no, blood, her loved ones' deaths or anything similar wouldn't destgroy her. :huh

    But I do agree with you that getting out of Tsukuyomi is pretty much impossible. :amuse
     
  15. Astranagun ...

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    Yes, and Chiyo doesn't have very good chakra control because she can easily control a puppet with one string of chakra...
     
  16. Cytrus Hopeless

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    Let's assume a cream was discovered that granted full protection against fire moves, one which would be cheap also. In two to three years, the amount of ninja being taught any fire moves would decrease dramatically.

    The example above shows an absolute counter, which is what I meant. That sort of counter leads to the "extinction" of a given jutsu.

    The thing which you mention, "easy" counters, is very different, and only natural. All imaginable jutsu have such easy counters. If they didn't, the attacker would always be the winner. Ninja fights actually consist of comparing who can counter longer.

    Tsukiyomi has it's own, very easy, counter. You simply don't look into the opponent's eyes. That means even Konohamaru may protect himself from Itachi's technique. However, no ninja may ignore it, the way you wish the sannin to. There are ways of preventing it (maybe more than the one listed above), but not of ignoring it after you do get caught. In that respect, it works like a simple taijutsu attack.

    Additionally, if someone has perfect control over his psyche, he may take the jutsu, "suffer" through it, and emerge unharmed. The possibility of such a person existing is rather low though.
     
  17. kapsi Banned

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    fixed .
     
  18. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    If i remember correctly, she got over her blood phobia.:wink


    Itachi can use those images to torment her, especially using scenes from Oro's deal and Tsunade's decision.

    Like the offer Oro made to her about resurrecting her love ones.

    So Itachi would make Dan or her exboyfriend by accusing Tsunade of not loving them much enough, since she rejected the offer and things like that.

    That would devaste Tsunade's heart and mind, which would destory her.




    :p
     
  19. Astranagun ...

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    ^^^you don't really have to inflict emotional pain with the MS...you can do a lot more with the MS, like what Itachi did to Kakashi.
     
  20. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    I was merely talking about Itachi's normal genjutsu, not MS.

    :p
     
  21. Random_Shinobi RPG design genius

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    Nobody can escape from Tsukiyomi, you can only endure it. But you must notice that enduring 72 hours of physical torture becomes very easy if you don't feel any pain.

    There must be some medical jutsu which nullifies all pain, and thus offering near absolute protection against Tsukiyomi.

    Ofcourse Tsukiyomi-user may still try to shatter the spirit of the target by showing horredous images to him/her. But in the end they are nothing more than a pictures, which can be simply ignored.

    All non-instand genjutsus can be broken with suitable amount of chakra and chakra controll. But you must notice that even if you could break the genjutsu, genjutsu user could easily kill you during the few seconds it takes to escape from genjutsu.
     
  22. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    False.

    Itachi choosed what he want you to go throught.

    he is in control of that world, and do whatever he please.

    if you are blind he can make see.

    If you don't feel pain, he can make you feel pain.


    You are at his mercy.


    Nope, since you can't heal yourself while you are in Tsukuyomi and as it all happens in an instant.


    Only another MS eyes can stand Tsukuyomi.


    Then you still don't understand Tsukuyimi.
    You can ignored it.

    Look what happened to Kakashi.

    You are at his mercy.
     
  23. Mibu Clan Chibi Mibu

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    Not only that, but Tsukoyomi isnt phisycal pain...And thus you cant cure from it...

    Its Phisical Pain in the other world, but not the real world...You cant defend against it.

    You cant get out of it either...FACT.
     
  24. Random_Shinobi RPG design genius

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    Nothing that happens in Tsukuyomi is real. And if you don't feel any pain, you can merely enjoy the show.

    Ofcourse to avoid pain caused by Tsukuyomi you must physically destroy you ability to feel pain as most likely no pain-clouding genjutsu will work against it.

    Well, yes. But nothing stops you from using that jutsu beforehand.

    That proves nothing. Kakashi had no protection.
     
  25. Hef Night Work

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    Tsunade cured Kakashi's and Sasuke's mental trauma (or whatever it was), so yes, it can be cured. :oh
     
  26. sunshine and gasoline slowly, he turned.

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    I think he was reffering to not being able to cure from it while trapped in the Tsukoyomi, which I agree with.

    But yeah, if you survived it you will eventually recover, unless you had some kind of mental breakdown because of the images/torture shown/applied.
     
  27. Hef Night Work

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    Well, the wording he used implied that you can't be cured from it at all, so that's why I said that. :amuse
     
  28. sunshine and gasoline slowly, he turned.

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    Yeah, but he was reffering to the post where Random_Shinobi said that Tsunade as a medical nin should have an jutsu that made her feel no pain and use it as cure while trapped in Tsukoyomi.

    So I assumed that he meant that, but I don't know really so nevermind.

    My stance is that once trapped in Tsukoyomi. You are screwed.

    You can't do anything that Itcahi doesn't want you to, no jutsus no nothing. Remember that Sasuke was unable to move while trapped in it, also remember that Itcahi can make you whatever he wants. He made Sasuke into a little boy.

    So once trapped it's up to Itachi what's going to happend to you.
     
  29. Hef Night Work

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    He did? Oh well. But it's still good to make it clear that you can be cured from Tsukuyomi after getting hit by it and surviving. :amuse
    Agreed. :woo
     
  30. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    You don't still don't get it.

    It doesn't matter if you don't have any nerve to feel pain, or if you are blind or cripple.

    In Tsukuyimi Itachi is in controll, and he will make you feel what he wants you to feel.


    No, read above.

    Go ask sho to give you Tsukuyomi's description, in order for you to understand what Tsukuyomi really is and what is capable of.



    It won't matter.

    Again, read tsukuyomi.

    Itachi doesn't do the damage while you are in "your body."

    Its also like this.

    Tsukuyomi in order to be effective, must need eye contact,

    You know the saying, the eyes are the windows to the soul.

    So Itachi basically rips your soul from throught your eyes, and drag you to a world that Itachi create for you.

    Reason why They can't escape Tsukuyomi since they are not able to use their bodies as its useless.



    You are not reading the manga nor the databook.


    Sharingan offers you a slight protection against MS, this was both stated in the manga and databook.

    but the protection can't do shit to MS.

    The only reason why Itachi is alive is because he was spared by Itachi.



    Three things you must know.:wink

    1. Tsukuyomi kills, stated by the manga, so you survive if Itachi wants you to.

    2. If Itachi lets you live he has can choose to knock you out or put you into a coma.

    3. It took the greatest medical nin to cure both Kakashi's coma and Sasuke's coma. The lasted a whole month and it showed no sign of going away.
     
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